Browse Forums Building A New House 1 Jan 15, 2011 6:48 pm Hi fellow HomeOne Forum Members . We are in dire need of some advice and help on what to do with ____ Homes (legal and personal experiences on how to deal with them!), and so, I am here to ask for help.
Summary of events leading to the problem [*] June 30, 2010 - We accepted our initial tender [*] August 6, 2010 - We had our tender appointment to review our plans and were asked to sign it on the day! Our experience with other builders is that you have a chance to make any changes before you sign any plans, but not with ____ Homes. On the same afternoon of this appointment, we called our consultant to add an ensuite to the ground floor, but she did not answer her phone. She went on holidays the following week and ____ Homes were unable to organize a time to make this change until around August 30, 2010. We paid $500 to make this amendment. [*] October 1, 2010 - Our plans were finalised with the ensuite. It has taken them 4 months to finalise our plans!! [*] Mid October, 2010 - We were told that our plans had been lodged into Council, but when we went to ask Council about it, they received our plans sometime in November 2010. [*] December 3, 2010 - During these few months, we have asked our consultant to give us an extension due to the delays of the plans. She agreed that she would talk to her manager about it and give us an answer when the expiry date was closer. On 3rd December 2010, we wrote to our consultant again in regards to this as well as the total costs incurred if we were to cancel our job at this stage. We were asked to wait for the calculations. [*] December 27, 2010 - Our tender expired. [*] January 6, 2011 - Our consultant contacted us in regards to the tender expiry. Management has decided that there was only a 10 day delay on their behalf, and per our contract "if the client is not ready to go to site by that expiry date we "reserve the right to review the List, Facade and Promotional offer pricing". We were told that there will be a $11,000 increase on the price of our home!!!!!!! In addition, they will offer an extension of one month for 0.5% of our contract price (approximately $2,000) and after that one month, we are required to pay the full increase of $11,000!! BUT! We had been clearly told at our tender appointment (first consultant) and further on (second consultant), that if we were not ready by "site start" when our tender expired, we would only be charge 0.5% of the tender price increase - they both calculated it to be around $2,000. We have numerous tenders due to variations, and up to the third tender, we had been carefully matching all the prices and conditions. The clause in regards to this 0.5% increase was in there. We trusted ____ Homes that the following tenders had no changes and focused on the prices of the variations. AND if there were to be any changes, they would inform us before we accepted the tenders. Lo and behold, the magical terms "unregistered land" appeared without us knowing (and only pointed this out on January 6, 2011), and the 0.5% increase no longer applied to us, and they can charge us $11,000!! We have not ever heard of a price increase of $11,000 on any display home! And all along, we were told that we only had to pay $2,000 extra after the tender expiry! The question is now, what should we do and how to go about it? Legal advice? Personal experiences on how to deal with this situation? They've wasted our time AND money, and we are faced to pay such a high penalty (they will not tell us how they've come up with the sum of $11,000 - oh, and this price may increase again in March or April). When we questioned ___ Homes about the 4 months in preparation of the plans, they justified it by saying "that is just how we do things". How is it then that 180 days is sufficient to get the job to "site start" with ______ Homes? . *Edit* - I've removed the name of the company in case of any legal implications =/. Advice needed (legal & personal experiences) 2Jan 15, 2011 7:30 pm After getting stuffed around by them are you really sure you want them to build your house?? You may lose money if you pull out but after what I've read, I wouldnt build with them in a pink fit! They're disorganised. Re: Advice needed (legal & personal experiences) 3Jan 15, 2011 7:47 pm A few points here are ringing warning bells with me, firstly [*] December 3, 2010 - During these few months, we have asked our consultant to give us an extension due to the delays of the plans. She agreed that she would talk to her manager about it and give us an answer when the expiry date was closer. On 3rd December 2010, we wrote to our consultant again in regards to this as well as the total costs incurred if we were to cancel our job at this stage. We were asked to wait for the calculations. So you were not really given an option to cancel at this stage? [*] December 27, 2010 - Our tender expired. Your tender expired, were you contacted immediately before the tender expiry to give you a chance to make a decision to go ahead or not? [*] January 6, 2011 - Our consultant contacted us in regards to the tender expiry. Management has decided that there was only a 10 day delay on their behalf, and per our contract "if the client is not ready to go to site by that expiry date we "reserve the right to review the List, Facade and Promotional offer pricing". I'm assuming tender expired in the Christmas break, how would you have contacted them if they're not in the office? *Management has decided* I would be asking them for their timeline and list of events, and would also be asking a solicitor (or clever person) to peruse the contract and their timeline, if they're asking for this money they'd want to have a damn good reason. Unregistered land huh? Withholding information? And I don't think i'd be speaking to your sales consultant, i'd be going a bit higher up the food chain.... My building thread : viewtopic.php?f=31&t=36059 Paid initial deposit 24/7/10 Tender appointment 20/8/2010 Flooring and tile appointment 25/9/10 Colour and Electrical appointment 13/9/10 December site start delayed Site start (YAY!) 17/1/11 Slab pour 1/2/2011 Re: Advice needed (legal & personal experiences) 4Jan 15, 2011 7:58 pm *MrsG* After getting stuffed around by them are you really sure you want them to build your house?? You may lose money if you pull out but after what I've read, I wouldnt build with them in a pink fit! They're disorganised. We are really considering whether to build or not at this stage, that's why we are trying to get as much advice as possible. We lose money either way . [quote="building1"]A few points here are ringing warning bells with me, firstly So you were not really given an option to cancel at this stage? Well, the option was always open to us, but we did not know the costs!! The costs are important to us so that we know which is the best way to go. But they didn't get back to us with this price until January 6, 2011! We asked for the cancellation fees back in October as well. [*] December 27, 2010 - Our tender expired. Your tender expired, were you contacted immediately before the tender expiry to give you a chance to make a decision to go ahead or not? No, because our tender expired during the Christmas period, and they weren't back until January 4, 2011. [*] January 6, 2011 - Our consultant contacted us in regards to the tender expiry. Management has decided that there was only a 10 day delay on their behalf, and per our contract "if the client is not ready to go to site by that expiry date we "reserve the right to review the List, Facade and Promotional offer pricing". I'm assuming tender expired in the Christmas break, how would you have contacted them if they're not in the office? - We couldn't contact them. *Management has decided* I would be asking them for their timeline and list of events, and would also be asking a solicitor (or clever person) to peruse the contract and their timeline, if they're asking for this money they'd want to have a damn good reason. Unregistered land huh? Withholding information? And I don't think i'd be speaking to your sales consultant, i'd be going a bit higher up the food chain.... - noone seems to be able to make a decision, and things are just being dragged on. Our time is running out again! January 27, 2011... /quote] As you can see, what they are asking, is really unreasonable. We met with them yesterday (well, my dad, and his English is not too good), and they said the $11,000 is to paid off monthly (0.5% of that amount each month, I believe), but there is a chance for another increase in March and April. Chances are, approval will not be easy (we have a difficult Council). If they keep increasing at this rate, the price of our home will well be over $500,000. It's a risk to continue building with them, but also a loss if we cancel now ($6,000 deposit and extra $1,800 to cancel now...). There is something that I forgot to mention - funnily enough, their copy of the contract has the "0.5%" clause (but not ours). They only let my dad glance over it. It seems that they are improvising as they go along. A week ago they told us it had nothing to do with us because of the terms "unregistered land" and magically, the next week, it's there for us. They can say anything, and we are forced to accept what they tell us... Re: Advice needed (legal & personal experiences) 5Jan 15, 2011 8:09 pm Hi emi, Sorry to hear of this drama. Now, on August 6, 2010 you signed your Tender docos? What was the base house price then, what was the facade price (if you upgraded the facade) and what was the cost of any promo/special offers you may have taken? Now, what were these prices on 27th Dec, when the tender expired? That should be the price increase. I think they should send you a letter describing the extra cost. Obviously, the only messy area is the promo/special offers (that is, only if you took some special offers). I haven't heard about the 5% rule - maybe it was not relevant to us. Sorry, not much help My signature is distracting people from my wise posts ... Re: Advice needed (legal & personal experiences) 6Jan 15, 2011 8:39 pm Lex Hi emi, Sorry to hear of this drama. Now, on August 6, 2010 you signed your Tender docos? What was the base house price then, what was the facade price (if you upgraded the facade) and what was the cost of any promo/special offers you may have taken? Now, what were these prices on 27th Dec, when the tender expired? That should be the price increase. I think they should send you a letter describing the extra cost. Obviously, the only messy area is the promo/special offers (that is, only if you took some special offers). I haven't heard about the 5% rule - maybe it was not relevant to us. Sorry, not much help Hi Lex, Apparently we have the 0.5% (less than 1%), but newer contracts have 5%! The base price of our home is $250,000 and we added $8,000 for an upgrade package and an extra $5,000 for air-conditioning promo. The facade was approximately $10,000. Now, the prices as of December 27, 2010 is unknown. Why? They are no longer building our design as of December 1, 2010. So, how they came up with the price increases, really bedazzles me. And they won't tell us how they got the figure of $11,000 because of some odd reason. Re: Advice needed (legal & personal experiences) - builder 7Jan 15, 2011 9:36 pm Now firstly, did I write 5% (but meant 0.5%) - I did, didn't I Anyway, looks like times are changing a lot, and not for the better to the consumer. In regards to the price increase justification, one would think that there would be some laws or rules about it - but I don't know them and never investigated. My signature is distracting people from my wise posts ... Re: Advice needed (legal & personal experiences) - builder 8Jan 15, 2011 9:57 pm If you're talking about the builder I think you're talking about, our tender expired from memory, and there were no penalties for us Re: Advice needed (legal & personal experiences) - builder 9Jan 16, 2011 1:02 am I'm afraid I'm not much help, but my only advice is toss that lot immediately, go get new builders. If this experience hasn't shown you what kinda company they are, then nothing will. There are plenty of decent honest building companies around. (eg. your rep is away for a week and no one else can help you??? that's a joke.) A thankful person is a happy person. [/color]My hobby design blog: http://aviewondesign.blogspot.com/ Re: Advice needed (legal & personal experiences) - builder 10Jan 16, 2011 8:17 am Our tender expired a few times, our design was deleted half way through too, but they didn't apply any penalties BTW, we paid the Sales deposit within half an hour (probably their quickest sale ever, even though it was just a sketch with several major structural changes!), then we signed the Tender right away at the first meeting (trusting them with still having to correct major mistakes and implement the structural changes properly and some other changes and issue the 'next round' of the Tender/Plans), then we made more changes after the next issue of Tender/Plans, and then made even more small changes after that (in the following rounds of Tender/Plans). Our tender presenter was a pleasure to deal with, we couldn't part from this person, so we kept finding excuses and new changes just to come back to the office (no, not really, that was not the reason, but the tender presenter was truly great!!). My signature is distracting people from my wise posts ... Re: Advice needed (legal & personal experiences) - builder 11Jan 16, 2011 8:46 am Sorry to tell you this, but perhaps they looked too much into your asking for cancellation fees in October, and in writing. Maybe they got the message wrong! If you are really, really still interested to go ahead - maybe if you ask to come over for a quick chat with the TP and/or her manager (she would talk to the mgr anyway) and explain that you really want to go ahead but you wouldn't be able with the 11k increase and that you'd appreciate if they waive the increase ... One thing for sure is that builders treat different clients differently from start and there are actually no hard rules with this, so I think if you show them good will that they might change the tune (just might!). They would need to discuss this at a meeting and you'd need to wait for their answer, I think. If they stick to their 11k, then it's really your call. I don't think that legally they should charge you anything else on top of the deposits that you already paid. I think that people from that link I gave you have asked for invoices as proof of their extra expenses. Has the construction certificate already been issued? If yes, that's not a big cost to pay on top of the deposits anyway (a few hundred $ only). I think they wouldn't (or shouldn't) go ahead with other extra costs at this stage since the contract still hasn't been signed. One thing I don't understand is the unregistered land. So you are building in a new estate and the land still hasn't been sorted out?? .... OK, now I've read a bit more; about your non-matching copies of docos - that is unaccepatable! If you feel that they are improvising, they probably are, and it's not good news. And the contract price seems huge (400-500k) - you must have had some big changes and expensive upgrades, and the house itself must have been quite expensive to start with? Perhaps 7.8k is not much to loose in order to gain some sleep? Especially if there are still issues with the land. It also looks like your plans are still with the Council? I wish you the very best of luck! Have you investigated any other builders? My signature is distracting people from my wise posts ... Re: Advice needed (legal & personal experiences) - builder 12Jan 16, 2011 8:49 am just Erin - You were lucky then! By how long did your tender expire though? Were your plans approved by Council shortly after? Annietom - I'm not sure that there ARE decent builders out there. Maybe luck plays a big part. We've paid 3 other deposits before this. Allworth Homes was one of them (they did seem decent, but said they couldn't build on our land ). With another builder, we were up to Council lodgement, but when we reviewed the plan once again, there was a big flaw in it! That was never pointed out to us, and to fix the problem, a big amount of dollars was needed. The price was so high, that we finally moved to ___ Homes (badluck on our part!!). Just trying to contact them is insane. We are always forced to talk to an answering machine (which I say, contributed to most of the delays), until our third consultant, who actually answered the phone. Lex - I am quite jealous that you had such a great rep! Those are really rare nowadays. We paid our Sales the initial deposit right away as well, and made some changes so that our design would fit on our block. With our experience previous years ago (we've built before), they had given us time after that deposit to make any necessary changes. And you could just keep making changes until you were satisfied. But not with this company. You have to sign on the tender appointment, and changes after, would cost you $1,000 administration fee! Re: Advice needed (legal & personal experiences) - builder 13Jan 16, 2011 10:03 am Lex Sorry to tell you this, but perhaps they looked too much into your asking for cancellation fees in October, and in writing. Maybe they got the message wrong! If you are really, really still interested to go ahead - maybe if you ask to come over for a quick chat with the TP and/or her manager (she would talk to the mgr anyway) and explain that you really want to go ahead but you wouldn't be able with the 11k increase and that you'd appreciate if they waive the increase ... One thing for sure is that builders treat different clients differently from start and there are actually no hard rules with this, so I think if you show them good will that they might change the tune (just might!). They would need to discuss this at a meeting and you'd need to wait for their answer, I think. If they stick to their 11k, then it's really your call. I don't think that legally they should charge you anything else on top of the deposits that you already paid. I think that people from that link I gave you have asked for invoices as proof of their extra expenses. Has the construction certificate already been issued? If yes, that's not a big cost to pay on top of the deposits anyway (a few hundred $ only). I think they wouldn't (or shouldn't) go ahead with other extra costs at this stage since the contract still hasn't been signed. One thing I don't understand is the unregistered land. So you are building in a new estate and the land still hasn't been sorted out?? .... OK, now I've read a bit more; about your non-matching copies of docos - that is unaccepatable! If you feel that they are improvising, they probably are, and it's not good news. And the contract price seems huge (400-500k) - you must have had some big changes and expensive upgrades, and the house itself must have been quite expensive to start with? Perhaps 7.8k is not much to loose in order to gain some sleep? Especially if there are still issues with the land. It also looks like your plans are still with the Council? I wish you the very best of luck! Have you investigated any other builders? There is no way they got the message wrong. We've asked it again and again. In our last meeting (January 14, 2011), the Client Services Manager AND their solicitor was present (overpowered, much?). They still insist on the $11,000. I am planning to send another email tonight and call her tomorrow. And you are right! They treat every client/customer differently right from the start. And I believe we fell victim to that, and they've been treating us unfairly. We're not a pushover, if that's what they are thinking. The construction certificate has not been released, because as per what our consultant told our bank (and not us), they need Council approval and a further 10 days after to obtain it. I don't know why they conjured up the two words "unregistered land" and put it into our terms, since we are clearly doing a knock-down and rebuild. Our plans are still with Council, and we don't know as yet, if they require us to do anything else! This will well push us over the expiry for another few months if the Council wants to be difficult. Our tender price at the moment is around the $400,000 mark, and we haven't done our electrical or tiles appointment (see how late things have been pushed for us?! These appointments have been made AFTER our tender expiry - their reason? These two appointments are not necessary to get it to "site start"). So more dollars $$$$ are going to spent there. And with these huge price increases, it's well over our budget...How can anyone afford to build with them at this rate?! Re: Advice needed (legal & personal experiences) - builder 14Jan 16, 2011 3:43 pm Hi emi, Hope this is not too harsh, but I don't think it looks good (after finding out that they already pulled a legal person into it, etc.). In regards to tiling and electrical, that's pretty much the normal process. We've done them very close to contract signing, right at the end. My signature is distracting people from my wise posts ... Re: Advice needed (legal & personal experiences) - builder 15Jan 16, 2011 4:06 pm They have just replied with an email stating that they are no longer charging the $11,000, but $2,040 per month until we are ready. But, there is a new price list coming out in March (how on earth do they come up with a new price list when they don't build it anymore?!) I'd just like to ask a question now. Would you be willing to agree to pay $2,040 per month? I know there have been cases where it has been dragged on for over a year. This has been all very stressful . Re: Advice needed (legal & personal experiences) - builder 16Jan 16, 2011 4:33 pm They replied on a Sunday?? My answer to your question would depend on a few more important details, like: How much longer for the Council? Is it likely that the Council would ask for some additional changes in order to assure compliance to this or that? Have you demolished already? All trees fell (if required)? Is the site ready? How are you going with Tiling and El.? Everything selected and no chance of delays there? Are you going to ask for any more changes (non-structural)? Remember, when they prepare the final plans and the Contract docos, it is still possible to discover some sudden changes done by them that you might not like, or that there would be some mistake in the Plans. Although, this could be handled in some other way, other than redoing all the docos, but always in writing. If it looks like it's another couple of months, and if you want this house, then why not. My signature is distracting people from my wise posts ... Re: Advice needed (legal & personal experiences) - builder 17Jan 16, 2011 4:41 pm Lex They replied on a Sunday?? My answer to your question would depend on a few more important details, like: How much longer for the Council? Is it likely that the Council would ask for some additional changes in order to assure compliance to this or that? Have you demolished already? All trees fell (if required)? Is the site ready? How are you going with Tiling and El.? Everything selected and no chance of delays there? Are you going to ask for any more changes (non-structural)? Remember, when they prepare the final plans and the Contract docos, it is still possible to discover some sudden changes done by them that you might not like, or that there would be some mistake in the Plans. Although, this could be handled in some other way, other than redoing all the docos, but always in writing. If it looks like it's another couple of months, and if you want this house, then why not. Yes, haha. They replied on a Sunday . How much longer it will be in Council or whether there are compliance issues are still unknown factors. Now they are hoping to receive the DA by end of January to early February (funny how just two weeks ago, they expected it to be out by the end of this week). We don't have any further changes. Our electrical appointment is tomorrow and tiles appointment is later this week. Trying to get everything to "site start", our tenants moved out at the start of the month. Losing money here as well . We are NOT going to demolish our house at this stage. It's a bit silly to do so right now, with everything in a mess. Re: Advice needed (legal & personal experiences) - builder 18Jan 16, 2011 4:52 pm Can you call the council and check with them directly? You can probably get to speak with the person who is going to make the recommendation (or the decision) on your case. Also, the demol. is going to take time too. Have you already starting looking for people to give you quotes, so at least you can have enough time to select one and book them? My signature is distracting people from my wise posts ... Re: Advice needed (legal & personal experiences) - builder 19Jan 16, 2011 4:56 pm Lex Can you call the council and check with them directly? You can probably get to speak with the person who is going to make the recommendation (or the decision) on your case. Also, the demol. is going to take time too. Have you already starting looking for people to give you quotes, so at least you can have enough time to select one and book them? All that has been organised as well. We have a demolisher, paid our deposit and our demolition application had been approved back in November 2010. We can call them up and have it demolished within a week or two. You see, everything that needs to be done or can be done on our part, has been completed. Even the bank is waiting for ___ Homes. I guess we can try contacting Council again. You have mandatory building inspections and privately engaged building inspections. The difference between the two comes down to inspecting the building so it's safe and… 3 18063 Hi All, I engaged a tradie to install concrete retaining wall 600-800mm high over 32 meters in Victoria. Sleepers are 200*75*2000 mm installed over 17 steel posts. I… 0 6903 Building Standards; Getting It Right! Don't think they are designed for double brick. WA has a particular way of building and unfortunately that's the way a large amount of sills are finished. 3 7005 |