Hi,
I've been on this forum for a short while now and as a builder, have definitely found it interesting and educating reading about people's experiences and the questions they ask. It's definitely made me aware of how much as builders we need to share more of our knowledge with clients as it can definitely be daunting, and at times what we think (as the builder) is straight forward and makes sense, doesn't to the client and/or consumer.
What I have struggled with and at times found disappointing, is the lack of faith or trust people have in builders. No doubt there's the few out there who have spoiled it for the rest of us, and done the wrong thing, but at the same time there's plenty of builders out there offering some amazing homes and will bend over backwards to help people get into their new home. I think a big part of this comes down to the attitude people carry when they walk into the display home, or sit down for their prestart. Yes there's no denying it, a builder will place margin on items and works carried out in a household, but it's no different to the margins you pay for buying a car, piece of clothing or even the tomato sauce in a shop. The difference as i see it is that a home is a signficant item with a high $$ value so it's obviously more noticeable and will be heavily scrutinised.
Anyway, i'm not looking to start a fight or debate on here, rather share an insight into something i hope will help people with their building experience based on my experience as a builder.
For one, be positive and keep smiling!! You are descending on an emotional rollercoaster which will take you through highs and lows, but that's what part of this experience is all about, like life, it's how you come out in the end - and hopefully you'll be happy with your home once you move in. At times it will get tough but stay strong by thinking of how great it will be to have your own home and what you have provided your family - many will never get to have that experience.
Ask lots and lots of questions with the mindset that you want to learn. This also ties in with communication. If you aren't sure about anything - ask your builder - it's what they are there for and are getting paid to do. It's a building experience but also a learning experience into something really remarkable and exciting. At times you may ask why the builder is doing this or that - i can honestly say there's a reason behind everything we do and we are always aiming for the best outcome for the both of us. Trust me, if we have bad news, we'll look at other options as we hate having to call a happy client with bad news, we just want to make people happy.
Bringing me on to the main point is works by owner. I often see people take this route as a money saving option that will free up cash for upgrades. Sadly, unless you really know what you are doing, this often won't be the case.
Unless you have a clear idea of what you are doing or have people that can help you out, i strongly urge you to reconsider as it isn't much fun for us seeing a client end up spending more money when it could have been spent on flooring and furniture. I bring this up because in the last few weeks, i've had a few experiences which really bring home why it's not always good to do works by owner.
The main one we see due to the areas we build in is earthworks. On a typical suburban sandy block your earthworks will hover between $5-10k for the average sized home. For what we do, we tend to see them start around $20k and reach up to the $140k mark. It's at this point where people really push to do it themselves to save money. A couple of clients recently pushed very hard to do owner earthworks and for some reason, we let them. The earthworker they have chosen is reputable, but what they didn't realise is its not just a case of pushing dirt around and compacting the sand. things such as water, pumps, trenches etc need to be allowed for. Because some of these items weren't done properly, when we've rocked up to site to start building, the site isn't ready and we've asked the client to have the items prepared. Because they don't know what they are doing, we've had to do the work ourselves and charge them for it which has made them angry. This is what i see as the struggling point as i absolutely hate slugging clients with more costs, i will go to extremes to avoid this as i know that i would hate it if it happened to me. at the same time, they told us they would be doing the works and would know what they are doing - we've since found out that its not quite the case and they thought it would be a lot easier. The earthworkers they've used are regular one's we use - there's no discount given to them as they'll only be building one house through them so where's the loyalty compared to us who build up to 100 homes per year.
We've managed to sort everything out with the clients and all is well again, but it saddens me to see this happen as this is why it is best to leave the builder to handle it as we know what we are doing.
I guess the point i'm trying to make is for people reading this or thinking about doing works themselves - before you embark on looking into doing it yourself, make sure you really think about what you are doing and whether you are prepared to take the risk of possibly spending more money. We enter into a fixed price contract so if the earthworks blows out, its our fault and we need to pay for the additional costs as we should know better. in the instance of owner earthworks, it's all on the client.
I only bring this up as i've been thinking about owner works for a few weeks now, and thinking back over the past few years that we've allowed them for earthworks, i'm yet to see a case where someone has saved money and not had to fork out more because they weren't full bottle on what they are doing. Similar could be applied to other works in the home.
cheers
Jay
Works by owner and what the builder thought
Page 1 of 2
With forums like this, people are more likely to vent what goes wrong more often than what goes right. But having said that, builders should be more accountable for their actions. It's a LOT of money as you say and customers just want to be treated with respect and be valued. Communication is so vital so it's good to hear a builder's perspective.
We had a great experience with our builder.
We choose to use a smaller builder who only builders approx 6 to 10 homes a year, and as we are on a challenging site with a fair sized slope we need to find a builder that understood our budget and was able to work with it.
Communication was the reason everthing went well every email and phone call was answered in reasonalble time frame and we felt that we where never being avoided, no question was too stupid. If I notice something on site that was not right I would ask about it instead of jumping up and down. We were welcome on site at anytime. And he was up front about cost so there was not nasty suprises.
I think the reasonable amount of flexiblity from the builder and us made the process work well and the understanding that being a custom build sometimes things have to change as you go along.
If I ever build again I would use the same builder or a builder where I deal with the builder not with sales staff.
Cheers Lou
We choose to use a smaller builder who only builders approx 6 to 10 homes a year, and as we are on a challenging site with a fair sized slope we need to find a builder that understood our budget and was able to work with it.
Communication was the reason everthing went well every email and phone call was answered in reasonalble time frame and we felt that we where never being avoided, no question was too stupid. If I notice something on site that was not right I would ask about it instead of jumping up and down. We were welcome on site at anytime. And he was up front about cost so there was not nasty suprises.
I think the reasonable amount of flexiblity from the builder and us made the process work well and the understanding that being a custom build sometimes things have to change as you go along.
If I ever build again I would use the same builder or a builder where I deal with the builder not with sales staff.
Cheers Lou
Jay,
Thank you for an excellent post. I think it is very important to let people know that taking things away from the professionals is a big risk. One thing that I think is making it harder for builders these days is the amount of information available to the average punter. I am using the internet to find out so much about my build (and particularly this forum) that I would never have even bothered to look up before.
As an example 10 years ago I bought a house off the plan. We bought the house when it was about 6 weeks before completion. On settlement we took the keys walked in and moved our stuff in. I was younger and more naive then, however I did have the support of conservative and investigative family and friends. No-one mentioned anything about inspections, builders warranty, etc. etc. I didn't even review the specification or the drawings. We had three minor complaints. One was an embarrassing incident where I couldn't turn the oven on because I didn't realize where the power point for the oven was. The second was the heater stopped working, however the builder fixed this immediately. The third was a really poor plastering job in the toilet. I put this down to the fact that it would have been difficult to plaster in a central room with no windows and I didn't think any more of it.
Now that I am going through my own building process where I feel more in control of the outcome I would not have accepted this plaster, although it really is no big deal. I am probably being overly pedantic and I'm pushing the builder on a lot of minor items that I know don't meet code, however in my experience as a structural engineer are very minor.
I have a feeling that the reason I am pushing the builder on these items and that I am paying a lot of attention to detail is that I was very disappointed with the preliminary sales process where I was not told correct details and communication was very slow and incorrect. I think that if it was not for this early stage I probably would not have even known of the existence of homeone, as I was trying to answer some questions that the salesman was not forthcoming with answers.
I have a lot of faith in the builder now that I am communicating directly with them, however the original sales staff were very disappointing and did not tell the whole truth. At the end of my build when all is done and I am extremely happy in my new house I will definitely forget the original and painful pre contract experience. I will however write to the builder and the marketing company that sits above them to tell them about all of my opinions etc.
Thank you for an excellent post. I think it is very important to let people know that taking things away from the professionals is a big risk. One thing that I think is making it harder for builders these days is the amount of information available to the average punter. I am using the internet to find out so much about my build (and particularly this forum) that I would never have even bothered to look up before.
As an example 10 years ago I bought a house off the plan. We bought the house when it was about 6 weeks before completion. On settlement we took the keys walked in and moved our stuff in. I was younger and more naive then, however I did have the support of conservative and investigative family and friends. No-one mentioned anything about inspections, builders warranty, etc. etc. I didn't even review the specification or the drawings. We had three minor complaints. One was an embarrassing incident where I couldn't turn the oven on because I didn't realize where the power point for the oven was. The second was the heater stopped working, however the builder fixed this immediately. The third was a really poor plastering job in the toilet. I put this down to the fact that it would have been difficult to plaster in a central room with no windows and I didn't think any more of it.
Now that I am going through my own building process where I feel more in control of the outcome I would not have accepted this plaster, although it really is no big deal. I am probably being overly pedantic and I'm pushing the builder on a lot of minor items that I know don't meet code, however in my experience as a structural engineer are very minor.
I have a feeling that the reason I am pushing the builder on these items and that I am paying a lot of attention to detail is that I was very disappointed with the preliminary sales process where I was not told correct details and communication was very slow and incorrect. I think that if it was not for this early stage I probably would not have even known of the existence of homeone, as I was trying to answer some questions that the salesman was not forthcoming with answers.
I have a lot of faith in the builder now that I am communicating directly with them, however the original sales staff were very disappointing and did not tell the whole truth. At the end of my build when all is done and I am extremely happy in my new house I will definitely forget the original and painful pre contract experience. I will however write to the builder and the marketing company that sits above them to tell them about all of my opinions etc.
With forums like this, people are more likely to vent what goes wrong more often than what goes right. But having said that, builders should be more accountable for their actions. It's a LOT of money as you say and customers just want to be treated with respect and be valued. Communication is so vital so it's good to hear a builder's perspective.
Yep i can understand that - we are definitely very much held accountable for what we do, i think at times some people's expectations don't fall in line with what they are getting as they've seen the display home, and don't realise how much work goes in to them at the end which is work the client does or they employ trades to do.
Hi room4acubby,
I definitely feel your pain as i've witnessed instances of people not having the best up front experience with the sales person.
The internet has definitely changed building in that people have a lot of access to information, which i think is fantastic. What worries me is that there's also a lot of misleading information, and the fact that if someone posts a question up here about building, they will take the advice from someone who may not have any idea about what they are talking about.
I definitely feel your pain as i've witnessed instances of people not having the best up front experience with the sales person.
The internet has definitely changed building in that people have a lot of access to information, which i think is fantastic. What worries me is that there's also a lot of misleading information, and the fact that if someone posts a question up here about building, they will take the advice from someone who may not have any idea about what they are talking about.
Hi Jayw
Why should we expect anything less than the quality of work we see in a display home
this is the product they are selling
If you went into a car dealership took a test drive of a car paid the money and have a
car deliverd with defects etc that did not reflect the build quality of the product you were
show you would not accept this so why should we accept anything but a quality product
for your hard earned money
Some of the crap that our builder has tried to put over me is unbelievable
Here we are 5 months after hand over and had carpenter here for 2 days and the painter is
on his forth day today and still there is a number of things that need attention
I am sick of hearing that it is to standard or that is the way we do it i inspected a display home
which is a representation of their product and expect nothing less its my money
Counting down the days till i can take it up with the bsa
Darryl
PS Be aware of your builder watch every move they make
Why should we expect anything less than the quality of work we see in a display home
this is the product they are selling
If you went into a car dealership took a test drive of a car paid the money and have a
car deliverd with defects etc that did not reflect the build quality of the product you were
show you would not accept this so why should we accept anything but a quality product
for your hard earned money
Some of the crap that our builder has tried to put over me is unbelievable
Here we are 5 months after hand over and had carpenter here for 2 days and the painter is
on his forth day today and still there is a number of things that need attention
I am sick of hearing that it is to standard or that is the way we do it i inspected a display home
which is a representation of their product and expect nothing less its my money
Counting down the days till i can take it up with the bsa
Darryl
PS Be aware of your builder watch every move they make
Yep definitely agree with you there - what i was more referring to was how the home will look when handed over to you.
I can't speak for all builders, nor do i know fully how things operate over east, but people forget that when we build a display home, a lot of money goes into finishing the home with painting, furniture, landscaping etc.
What can be difficult is that a lot of people haven't seen a home before all these things are applied, so when they receive the keys and walk into the home with grey concrete floors, and white plaster coat walls, they can sometimes get a little disappointed. Many forget that once they receive the keys, it will be another couple of months before the home will be fully finished pending their budget and schedule of works.
I am a firm believer in quality, and when i am contacted by someone who's not happy with the quality of their home, i'll make every effort to ensure they are happy with the finished product.
I can't speak for all builders, nor do i know fully how things operate over east, but people forget that when we build a display home, a lot of money goes into finishing the home with painting, furniture, landscaping etc.
What can be difficult is that a lot of people haven't seen a home before all these things are applied, so when they receive the keys and walk into the home with grey concrete floors, and white plaster coat walls, they can sometimes get a little disappointed. Many forget that once they receive the keys, it will be another couple of months before the home will be fully finished pending their budget and schedule of works.
I am a firm believer in quality, and when i am contacted by someone who's not happy with the quality of their home, i'll make every effort to ensure they are happy with the finished product.
hi jayw
was put onto this link by someone else, very interesting, have been tossing up whether to do my own siteworks or not. but then reading this site has put me off a bit, which i must say i had reservations about from the start. ie do i do it and try and save some $$ or just let the builder worry about it.
what i want to know is there anything i could do to possibly reduce my costs....i'll briefly explain i have been quoted just under $40k for site works,(20k just for the sand which i have priced and seems about right) slight slope, but lots limestone, so no cut and fill possible. have managed to clear it the majority of it (dense coastal scrub).
wot i want to know is if it is worth me getting it levelled to my highest point (which is a rock), and then let the builders build up the 30cm that they said they would have to go up from the highest point??
does that make sense?? or is it best to leave up to builders. it's roughly a 1-2m gradual drop over 40m. on a 5 acre block, we could build on a flatter part of the block, but this spot has the best views.
thanks
was put onto this link by someone else, very interesting, have been tossing up whether to do my own siteworks or not. but then reading this site has put me off a bit, which i must say i had reservations about from the start. ie do i do it and try and save some $$ or just let the builder worry about it.
what i want to know is there anything i could do to possibly reduce my costs....i'll briefly explain i have been quoted just under $40k for site works,(20k just for the sand which i have priced and seems about right) slight slope, but lots limestone, so no cut and fill possible. have managed to clear it the majority of it (dense coastal scrub).
wot i want to know is if it is worth me getting it levelled to my highest point (which is a rock), and then let the builders build up the 30cm that they said they would have to go up from the highest point??
does that make sense?? or is it best to leave up to builders. it's roughly a 1-2m gradual drop over 40m. on a 5 acre block, we could build on a flatter part of the block, but this spot has the best views.
thanks
I have such a love/hate relationship with our builder!
Loved the floor plans, love the displays, the sales people were amazing... unfortunately the further into the building process we got... the quality of service we received continually dropped!
Our only contact in the office was useless... well that was after being assigned 3 or 4 before her. Basic queries were ignored, or only half answers given. Our SS kept telling us when we ran into him that he wasn't recieving our messages through the office.
It's a long story, I wont rattle on about every detail... except to say that they knew my husband was a plumber, so you'd think the one thing they'd get right was the plumbing... NOPE. Aaron's still on weekends fixing things. None of our storm water pipes were glued at any bends or joins
I think our builder really needs to have some sort of standards for the contractors they hire to complete works. Our painter smoked inside the home throughout the whole job, apparently after at least 3 official warnings from our builder. After regular reminders and me chasing confirmation, the WRONG appliances were still installed, creating a whole new list of issues...
We were so excited to get the keys... then to find the house wasn't cleaned... we were given a lecture about how we shouldn't have expected it to be clean, as they just do a 'builder's clean'. That is completely misleading, as you expect to move into a clean house... to the same standard the displays are...
Rant over...
Loved the floor plans, love the displays, the sales people were amazing... unfortunately the further into the building process we got... the quality of service we received continually dropped!
Our only contact in the office was useless... well that was after being assigned 3 or 4 before her. Basic queries were ignored, or only half answers given. Our SS kept telling us when we ran into him that he wasn't recieving our messages through the office.
It's a long story, I wont rattle on about every detail... except to say that they knew my husband was a plumber, so you'd think the one thing they'd get right was the plumbing... NOPE. Aaron's still on weekends fixing things. None of our storm water pipes were glued at any bends or joins
I think our builder really needs to have some sort of standards for the contractors they hire to complete works. Our painter smoked inside the home throughout the whole job, apparently after at least 3 official warnings from our builder. After regular reminders and me chasing confirmation, the WRONG appliances were still installed, creating a whole new list of issues...
We were so excited to get the keys... then to find the house wasn't cleaned... we were given a lecture about how we shouldn't have expected it to be clean, as they just do a 'builder's clean'. That is completely misleading, as you expect to move into a clean house... to the same standard the displays are...
Rant over...
We were given permission to do parts of our own plumbing, as long as we didn't touch the contractors plumbing. After handover we've connected ours to theirs. No wonder we were warned not to touch the contractor's plumbing... as we'd have picked up MANY mistakes, and rough-lazy work
Hi gabbybuild10,
I hope my thread hasn't scared you off the possibility of doing work yourself, i think it's more about leaving certain items to the builder - siteworks being the main one.
With regards to levelling off your block, i think i understand what's required for your block - in terms of the cost of doing it yourself i think it would only be marginal and there is the risk that the builder may not be happy with this outcome.
Assuming they do the work that you are opting yourself to do, they will put margin on that - how much i wouldn't know (might be worth asking?). From that, the earthworker who will be doing the work themselves will be remaining on site so there'd be no additional charge for bringing in equipment etc as they'll just keep working until it's finished.
As the other option, if you were to do that work yourself with your own contractor, from there the builder/engineer may not be happy with the work done so will need to provide additional work to make sure it's up to scratch, which they will then charge you for. Because two different works are engaged on the job, in their price both will charge for transport etc of equipment. Therefore that little bit of saving you could have gained may only be marginal.
The point i'm trying to make is that in my experience, when clients have done the work themselves quite often items will be missed. We're told by the owner the site is ready, we rock up and find that there's items missing so because we've now gone to site, we engage the trades and unfortunately have to charge the client for the additional work. In a lot of cases the saving the client had is reduced considerably, and they've also had to go through the headaches of arranging things for themselves when they could have been doing something else with their time.
It really comes down to the opportunity cost of the situation. So to reduce your costs, i wouldn't be focusing on the earthworks component of the house, but maybe items in the home etc if you're trying to save money.
In terms of building on a flatter part - it might seem more expensive now to build up there, but think of how you'll be if you build on the flat part, and every day look out the window to where you could have built and think - wouldn't have cost us that much extra in the grand scheme of things. Also think of it from a resale point of view in that you have spent the money on a piece of land, now you want to maximise the return out of it as much as possible - even though you'll be there for a number of years.
I hope this helps!! If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.
Jay
I hope my thread hasn't scared you off the possibility of doing work yourself, i think it's more about leaving certain items to the builder - siteworks being the main one.
With regards to levelling off your block, i think i understand what's required for your block - in terms of the cost of doing it yourself i think it would only be marginal and there is the risk that the builder may not be happy with this outcome.
Assuming they do the work that you are opting yourself to do, they will put margin on that - how much i wouldn't know (might be worth asking?). From that, the earthworker who will be doing the work themselves will be remaining on site so there'd be no additional charge for bringing in equipment etc as they'll just keep working until it's finished.
As the other option, if you were to do that work yourself with your own contractor, from there the builder/engineer may not be happy with the work done so will need to provide additional work to make sure it's up to scratch, which they will then charge you for. Because two different works are engaged on the job, in their price both will charge for transport etc of equipment. Therefore that little bit of saving you could have gained may only be marginal.
The point i'm trying to make is that in my experience, when clients have done the work themselves quite often items will be missed. We're told by the owner the site is ready, we rock up and find that there's items missing so because we've now gone to site, we engage the trades and unfortunately have to charge the client for the additional work. In a lot of cases the saving the client had is reduced considerably, and they've also had to go through the headaches of arranging things for themselves when they could have been doing something else with their time.
It really comes down to the opportunity cost of the situation. So to reduce your costs, i wouldn't be focusing on the earthworks component of the house, but maybe items in the home etc if you're trying to save money.
In terms of building on a flatter part - it might seem more expensive now to build up there, but think of how you'll be if you build on the flat part, and every day look out the window to where you could have built and think - wouldn't have cost us that much extra in the grand scheme of things. Also think of it from a resale point of view in that you have spent the money on a piece of land, now you want to maximise the return out of it as much as possible - even though you'll be there for a number of years.
I hope this helps!! If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.
Jay
hi jayw
was put onto this link by someone else, very interesting, have been tossing up whether to do my own siteworks or not. but then reading this site has put me off a bit, which i must say i had reservations about from the start. ie do i do it and try and save some $$ or just let the builder worry about it.
what i want to know is there anything i could do to possibly reduce my costs....i'll briefly explain i have been quoted just under $40k for site works,(20k just for the sand which i have priced and seems about right) slight slope, but lots limestone, so no cut and fill possible. have managed to clear it the majority of it (dense coastal scrub).
wot i want to know is if it is worth me getting it levelled to my highest point (which is a rock), and then let the builders build up the 30cm that they said they would have to go up from the highest point??
does that make sense?? or is it best to leave up to builders. it's roughly a 1-2m gradual drop over 40m. on a 5 acre block, we could build on a flatter part of the block, but this spot has the best views.
thanks
was put onto this link by someone else, very interesting, have been tossing up whether to do my own siteworks or not. but then reading this site has put me off a bit, which i must say i had reservations about from the start. ie do i do it and try and save some $$ or just let the builder worry about it.
what i want to know is there anything i could do to possibly reduce my costs....i'll briefly explain i have been quoted just under $40k for site works,(20k just for the sand which i have priced and seems about right) slight slope, but lots limestone, so no cut and fill possible. have managed to clear it the majority of it (dense coastal scrub).
wot i want to know is if it is worth me getting it levelled to my highest point (which is a rock), and then let the builders build up the 30cm that they said they would have to go up from the highest point??
does that make sense?? or is it best to leave up to builders. it's roughly a 1-2m gradual drop over 40m. on a 5 acre block, we could build on a flatter part of the block, but this spot has the best views.
thanks
Hi Jay,
I think that it is great that you, as a builder, are on this forum, and as we are building with one of the companies in your group I have been reading with interest your thoughts and helpful tips to other people on this thread. I get the feeling you like what you do, and heaven knows the homes you guys build are spectacular.
What I have struggled with and at times found disappointing, is the lack of faith or trust people have in builders. No doubt there's the few out there who have spoiled it for the rest of us, and done the wrong thing, but at the same time there's plenty of builders out there offering some amazing homes and will bend over backwards to help people get into their new home. I think a big part of this comes down to the attitude people carry when they walk into the display home, or sit down for their prestart. Yes there's no denying it, a builder will place margin on items and works carried out in a household, but it's no different to the margins you pay for buying a car, piece of clothing or even the tomato sauce in a shop. The difference as i see it is that a home is a signficant item with a high $$ value so it's obviously more noticeable and will be heavily scrutinised.
However as a client of one of the companies in your group, what I have struggled with and at times found disappointing, is the ludicrous amounts charged by the builder above and beyond RRP. You are right, there is no denying that builders place a margin on items, and we went into this fully aware that we were paying for the convenience of having someone build our house. We are inexperienced and extremely time poor, so really have little option but to build our home through a builder (geographic location also means its a choice of two building companies - both JWH).
What is insulting to us is the blatant "double dipping' if you will by the builder on items. Case in point our toilets. We wished to upgrade to a toilet that RRP at $700. The toilets included in the house RRP @ $400. Is it not logical then that we should just pay the difference between the two? This does not take into consideration the buying power of "one of WA's biggest building companies" which would surely get these items at well below RRP in the first place. What was actually quoted to us was 83% above RRP per toilet!
How could we not come away feeling like we were being shafted? When we queried this and pointed it out how crazy it was, wewere eventually allowed to supply our own. But to add insult to injury, we are only receiving a credit back for 1/2 the cost of the standard toilets? I mean come on. This has totally soured our relationship with the building comapny. We have gone from feeling really positive about this house and being really impressed with how accomodating the builder has been with our myriad of changes, to being totally deflated (but not defeated as we arenow haggling over the vanity basins RRP of $280, quote to upgrade $762) and incredibly suspicous of all of the other costs.
It may be disappointing to you to see that lack of faith or trust people have with builders, but how do you think we feel, when a reputably company, blatantly sqeezes you for money, and turns your dream into a constant struggle over money.
I think that it is great that you, as a builder, are on this forum, and as we are building with one of the companies in your group I have been reading with interest your thoughts and helpful tips to other people on this thread. I get the feeling you like what you do, and heaven knows the homes you guys build are spectacular.
What I have struggled with and at times found disappointing, is the lack of faith or trust people have in builders. No doubt there's the few out there who have spoiled it for the rest of us, and done the wrong thing, but at the same time there's plenty of builders out there offering some amazing homes and will bend over backwards to help people get into their new home. I think a big part of this comes down to the attitude people carry when they walk into the display home, or sit down for their prestart. Yes there's no denying it, a builder will place margin on items and works carried out in a household, but it's no different to the margins you pay for buying a car, piece of clothing or even the tomato sauce in a shop. The difference as i see it is that a home is a signficant item with a high $$ value so it's obviously more noticeable and will be heavily scrutinised.
However as a client of one of the companies in your group, what I have struggled with and at times found disappointing, is the ludicrous amounts charged by the builder above and beyond RRP. You are right, there is no denying that builders place a margin on items, and we went into this fully aware that we were paying for the convenience of having someone build our house. We are inexperienced and extremely time poor, so really have little option but to build our home through a builder (geographic location also means its a choice of two building companies - both JWH).
What is insulting to us is the blatant "double dipping' if you will by the builder on items. Case in point our toilets. We wished to upgrade to a toilet that RRP at $700. The toilets included in the house RRP @ $400. Is it not logical then that we should just pay the difference between the two? This does not take into consideration the buying power of "one of WA's biggest building companies" which would surely get these items at well below RRP in the first place. What was actually quoted to us was 83% above RRP per toilet!
How could we not come away feeling like we were being shafted? When we queried this and pointed it out how crazy it was, wewere eventually allowed to supply our own. But to add insult to injury, we are only receiving a credit back for 1/2 the cost of the standard toilets? I mean come on. This has totally soured our relationship with the building comapny. We have gone from feeling really positive about this house and being really impressed with how accomodating the builder has been with our myriad of changes, to being totally deflated (but not defeated as we arenow haggling over the vanity basins RRP of $280, quote to upgrade $762) and incredibly suspicous of all of the other costs.
It may be disappointing to you to see that lack of faith or trust people have with builders, but how do you think we feel, when a reputably company, blatantly sqeezes you for money, and turns your dream into a constant struggle over money.
This seems to be a common complaint,
Hugs to you "V"
Hugs to you "V"
Thanks Jayw
It was really good to get a builders pov
I think the builder had mentioned that they pretty much add 10% on to stuff they do, like we need septics, and siteworks etc, as to us doing it ourselves. Septics we will trench digging ourselves as much as we can.
probably not worth the stress of it all and will get the builder to do the site works, i would hate to have to double up on costs.
don't really want to compromise on the view. we are looking at going really basic inside, really bare minimum, and upgrading stuff later when we can afford it.
at the moment as long as i can afford my walls, electricity and plumbing i will be happy. i know as i go along there will be many i would like during the process, but am very aware of my budget.
It was really good to get a builders pov
I think the builder had mentioned that they pretty much add 10% on to stuff they do, like we need septics, and siteworks etc, as to us doing it ourselves. Septics we will trench digging ourselves as much as we can.
probably not worth the stress of it all and will get the builder to do the site works, i would hate to have to double up on costs.
don't really want to compromise on the view. we are looking at going really basic inside, really bare minimum, and upgrading stuff later when we can afford it.
at the moment as long as i can afford my walls, electricity and plumbing i will be happy. i know as i go along there will be many i would like during the process, but am very aware of my budget.
Try a 26% markup from our builder!
As i understand it a Engineer has to sign of on the site works,so if we use the same earth moving company & eng as the builder it should be done to a standard.
If the earthworks fellow has not done the job to the standard the eng would not sign off on it & wouldn't he have to fix it up as he was employed to do the site works.
Sorry hope you follow in a hurry to get to school pick-up
If the earthworks fellow has not done the job to the standard the eng would not sign off on it & wouldn't he have to fix it up as he was employed to do the site works.
Sorry hope you follow in a hurry to get to school pick-up
Hi Velouria,
Thank you for your compliments regarding my passion for the industry - for what it's worth i've been raised around building companies so it's hard to not get excited about home building. I'm not sure if you've been on our site, but i'm a member of the family that owns the group so i definitely take comments to heart and part of me being on here is to try and break down the ?? that exist between building companies and clients.
In terms of the mark up on the price, i can't fully comment as it's not in relation to the division i run so i'm not sure what their practice is. I definitely agree with you on the mark up, and i'm not quite sure why they do it like that. I think a builder or 'shop owner' has every right to charge a price for a change etc, as long as the cost can be justified. At the same time, that's sadly the world of business in that if you can charge it.... you will. By saying that, please don't think of me as someone who believes thats the way to conduct business.
As long as you are talking to them, i think they'll hopefully come to the party on some of these items. We do have stuff like this come up from time to time with people wanting to use their own items, and in some cases they can actually get a better price for items from retailers (can be very frustrating and makes us as builders look stupid), from that i like to keep the conversation quite transparent so we can work toward an outcome - hence my push to talk to the builder or NHA in the office.
I'd assume you're building in the south-west otherwise in the wheatbelt?
If you need a hand with anything Velouria, feel free to send me an email (jay.walter@ruralbuilding.com.au) and i'll see what i can do. I'd rather discuss over email if names are concerned for the sake of their privacy.
gabbybuild10 - i think you've got the right mindset. It's crazy that people get so carried away upgrading every single item on their house straight away, then get upset when the price comes back. It's like walking into the Holden dealership when the car is advertised for $30k, doing all the upgrades then complaining when it comes back at $60k. Best thing is to work out your priorities, as in what you can't live without now, or are more economical to do now, then later on do the things that can be done over time. you'll also find some of the nicest homes are one's where they have kept it simple, and the time and money has gone into finishing. We built a house not long ago where the client upgraded everything - this house was the 'ducks nuts' and looked brilliant. A few months after handover we saw the house and were quite disappointed at the finished result. The painting was done by owner but looked like a real rush job - no sanding and filling on the walls for a smooth finish, no washing the walls down for dust, not cutting in properly - it was a shame that what could have been a stunning home had been cut short by compromising on the details that make it look fantastic. I'm not saying you shouldn't do painting yourself, more so that it's soooooo important to take your time when building a home - from the very start to the very finish.
If you plan to dig your own trenches etc, make sure you get from the builder what depth they require. A house we're building at the moment had the client do trenches by owner, they did them 300mm deep when we required 500mm and they were too narrow. The client had to rehire the digger to come back out again. Admittedly, it was our mistake not specifying the requirements clearly and we assisted with payment for the digger and i'm in the process now of making sure this is reflected in our documentation to avoid it happening again.
Anyway, anymore questions - please feel free to email me, shoot us a PM or write up on here. Hopefully i'm restoring a bit of faith in builders and that we're not all bad guys!!
Jay
Thank you for your compliments regarding my passion for the industry - for what it's worth i've been raised around building companies so it's hard to not get excited about home building. I'm not sure if you've been on our site, but i'm a member of the family that owns the group so i definitely take comments to heart and part of me being on here is to try and break down the ?? that exist between building companies and clients.
In terms of the mark up on the price, i can't fully comment as it's not in relation to the division i run so i'm not sure what their practice is. I definitely agree with you on the mark up, and i'm not quite sure why they do it like that. I think a builder or 'shop owner' has every right to charge a price for a change etc, as long as the cost can be justified. At the same time, that's sadly the world of business in that if you can charge it.... you will. By saying that, please don't think of me as someone who believes thats the way to conduct business.
As long as you are talking to them, i think they'll hopefully come to the party on some of these items. We do have stuff like this come up from time to time with people wanting to use their own items, and in some cases they can actually get a better price for items from retailers (can be very frustrating and makes us as builders look stupid), from that i like to keep the conversation quite transparent so we can work toward an outcome - hence my push to talk to the builder or NHA in the office.
I'd assume you're building in the south-west otherwise in the wheatbelt?
If you need a hand with anything Velouria, feel free to send me an email (jay.walter@ruralbuilding.com.au) and i'll see what i can do. I'd rather discuss over email if names are concerned for the sake of their privacy.
gabbybuild10 - i think you've got the right mindset. It's crazy that people get so carried away upgrading every single item on their house straight away, then get upset when the price comes back. It's like walking into the Holden dealership when the car is advertised for $30k, doing all the upgrades then complaining when it comes back at $60k. Best thing is to work out your priorities, as in what you can't live without now, or are more economical to do now, then later on do the things that can be done over time. you'll also find some of the nicest homes are one's where they have kept it simple, and the time and money has gone into finishing. We built a house not long ago where the client upgraded everything - this house was the 'ducks nuts' and looked brilliant. A few months after handover we saw the house and were quite disappointed at the finished result. The painting was done by owner but looked like a real rush job - no sanding and filling on the walls for a smooth finish, no washing the walls down for dust, not cutting in properly - it was a shame that what could have been a stunning home had been cut short by compromising on the details that make it look fantastic. I'm not saying you shouldn't do painting yourself, more so that it's soooooo important to take your time when building a home - from the very start to the very finish.
If you plan to dig your own trenches etc, make sure you get from the builder what depth they require. A house we're building at the moment had the client do trenches by owner, they did them 300mm deep when we required 500mm and they were too narrow. The client had to rehire the digger to come back out again. Admittedly, it was our mistake not specifying the requirements clearly and we assisted with payment for the digger and i'm in the process now of making sure this is reflected in our documentation to avoid it happening again.
Anyway, anymore questions - please feel free to email me, shoot us a PM or write up on here. Hopefully i'm restoring a bit of faith in builders and that we're not all bad guys!!
Jay
Hi Velouria,
Thank you for your compliments regarding my passion for the industry - for what it's worth i've been raised around building companies so it's hard to not get excited about home building. I'm not sure if you've been on our site, but i'm a member of the family that owns the group so i definitely take comments to heart and part of me being on here is to try and break down the ?? that exist between building companies and clients.
In terms of the mark up on the price, i can't fully comment as it's not in relation to the division i run so i'm not sure what their practice is. I definitely agree with you on the mark up, and i'm not quite sure why they do it like that. I think a builder or 'shop owner' has every right to charge a price for a change etc, as long as the cost can be justified. At the same time, that's sadly the world of business in that if you can charge it.... you will. By saying that, please don't think of me as someone who believes thats the way to conduct business.
As long as you are talking to them, i think they'll hopefully come to the party on some of these items. We do have stuff like this come up from time to time with people wanting to use their own items, and in some cases they can actually get a better price for items from retailers (can be very frustrating and makes us as builders look stupid), from that i like to keep the conversation quite transparent so we can work toward an outcome - hence my push to talk to the builder or NHA in the office.
I'd assume you're building in the south-west otherwise in the wheatbelt?
If you need a hand with anything Velouria, feel free to send me an email (jay.walter@ruralbuilding.com.au) and i'll see what i can do. I'd rather discuss over email if names are concerned for the sake of their privacy.
Thank you for your compliments regarding my passion for the industry - for what it's worth i've been raised around building companies so it's hard to not get excited about home building. I'm not sure if you've been on our site, but i'm a member of the family that owns the group so i definitely take comments to heart and part of me being on here is to try and break down the ?? that exist between building companies and clients.
In terms of the mark up on the price, i can't fully comment as it's not in relation to the division i run so i'm not sure what their practice is. I definitely agree with you on the mark up, and i'm not quite sure why they do it like that. I think a builder or 'shop owner' has every right to charge a price for a change etc, as long as the cost can be justified. At the same time, that's sadly the world of business in that if you can charge it.... you will. By saying that, please don't think of me as someone who believes thats the way to conduct business.
As long as you are talking to them, i think they'll hopefully come to the party on some of these items. We do have stuff like this come up from time to time with people wanting to use their own items, and in some cases they can actually get a better price for items from retailers (can be very frustrating and makes us as builders look stupid), from that i like to keep the conversation quite transparent so we can work toward an outcome - hence my push to talk to the builder or NHA in the office.
I'd assume you're building in the south-west otherwise in the wheatbelt?
If you need a hand with anything Velouria, feel free to send me an email (jay.walter@ruralbuilding.com.au) and i'll see what i can do. I'd rather discuss over email if names are concerned for the sake of their privacy.
Jay thanks for your reply and offer of assistance. We may drop you a line in the future and explain our tale of woe to you....but be warned...its almost 16months long!
Could you explain to me why, when we are now supplying our own toilets, we are still being charged for 1/2 the cost of the standard ones?
This is not a question of us 'wanting' to use our own stuff...we have been forced to by the inflated pricing we have been quoted. To travel 1hour each way into town, with two kids under 3 to collect these toilets and then have to store them until they are needed is exceedingly inconvenient.
This whole saga has been quite stressful and has once again delayed us (but whats another week in the longest pre-contract papertrail ever!). I get the impression that you genuinely care about your clients and the reputation of your Company. By no means am I disparaging the JWH group - we chose CB for areason and that was quality and professionalism and we still believe that they will deliver us a fantastic house - but why does it have to be so hard. Why do we have to push all the time for them to meet their deadlines? Why do we have to be the ones to highlight errors/ommissions and obvious mistakes in pricing? Why is it that when we call into question their pricing, most often there is a price reduction (I know this is a good thing for us, but it does leave us feeling that if we hadn't brought it up we would have been over charged)
Its their job but its our life (and at the moment it is pretty sucky
edited due to tragic spelling errors
What we would also like to see is a transparent price list,
So when you update etc you see the credit for the item & the cost of the new,all itemised
Door updated/credit cost
Standard door $500-00
Credit $500-00
Up-dated door $900-00
Extra amount payable by client $400-00
We have found that as you go through all the costing etc you really have no idea what you are being charged for or if you are recieving any credit back.
Don't really understand how you can be charged any % of something you have changed or removed
Builders are 100% entitled to make money (off course) same as anyone,they make money from the build itself,but i think they have to be more realistic on those extra prices
Also every-one can not have everything,
so when you have to choose say a bigger window/garage/bench,nicer tiles etc over hiring a painter (which in the east is included in house price) then you paint the house yourself & do the best you can,well thats the priority for you!
So when you update etc you see the credit for the item & the cost of the new,all itemised
Door updated/credit cost
Standard door $500-00
Credit $500-00
Up-dated door $900-00
Extra amount payable by client $400-00
We have found that as you go through all the costing etc you really have no idea what you are being charged for or if you are recieving any credit back.
Don't really understand how you can be charged any % of something you have changed or removed
Builders are 100% entitled to make money (off course) same as anyone,they make money from the build itself,but i think they have to be more realistic on those extra prices
Also every-one can not have everything,
so when you have to choose say a bigger window/garage/bench,nicer tiles etc over hiring a painter (which in the east is included in house price) then you paint the house yourself & do the best you can,well thats the priority for you!
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