Browse Forums Building A New House Re: Our build with JG King 21May 26, 2010 10:38 pm Deemaree - there is the BACV. We may yet end up complaining to them. They can do an inspection report and try to mediate any disputes but they cannot enforce anything. Little Misses - Knowing what I know now, I think there are a number of aspects of the project building model that allow this kind of thing to happen. In the relatively small circle of people we have discussed this with, no less than two have described encountering significant problems when building - both with different project builders. One complained to the building commission and ended up resolving the dispute in VCAT. This happens way too frequently. But - on with the story... It took a while to get the plans for JG King's new approach drawn up and to get an independent engineer to do a site inspection and review the plans, and JG King's managers happened to be on vacation for a while...so we jump forward to April. JG King requested a meeting at which both engineers would attend to discuss the plans. That was held on April 12th. There were points of agreement and points of disagreement. It was at that meeting that JG King decided to drill the holes and determine the situation with the stem widths (see earlier post). Our engineer suggested some modifications to the plans. We did not accept the cut brick approach. Our engineer suggested that if the stem widths were found to be wide enough it would not be necessary and if not an alternate solution would be preferable. JG King agreed at that meeting to determine the stem widths, modify the design according to points agreed on in the meeting and then consult further with us and our engineer. Here are some excerpts from the Project Meeting Record prepared by JG King's engineer: "Agree to firstly determine throat stem width and then liaise with [our engineer] on agreed method of repair." "Evaluate for construction repair and discuss with both owners and [our engineer] before commencing any work on the site." We thought we had an agreement that we would be consulted before any work began. We received the amended plans from JG King on 21st April and forwarded them to our engineer. We went to the site the following Monday and found that JG King, with no further discussion or consultation with us and without seeking any approval of what they were doing from us had begun the repair work. They knew we did not agree with the cut brick approach. They were going to do it anyway. Fox Mulder was right... trust no-one. Re: Our build with JG King 22May 26, 2010 11:37 pm So, we felt that JG King had proceeded with a significant variation to the original plans without our agreement and we thought this violated the contract. I called the JG King manager and was told that in his opinion there was no significant change to the plans and JG King were within their rights to proceed with no agreement from us. I sent an email clearly indicating that we had not approved the modifications to the plans. I received no response. I sent a registered letter listing the ways in which we thought the work they were doing was altering the original plans and specifications and again stating that we did not agree to the modifications. I received no response.
JG King continued with the work that we had not agreed to. We arranged to meet with the manager, the building surveyor and JG King's engineer on site on 5th May to discuss what they were doing. We were supposed to go around the house and discuss the work on the various walls. We only got as far as Wall 1... because this is what it looked like: Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ This was one of the walls that had a stem width of less than 110 mm. This is less than the minimum in the building code. Our engineer proposed solving this by inserting steel dowels down vertically into the stems to strengthen them. This was discussed at the meeting on April 12th. At that meeting I had asked about problems with the steel dowels being exposed above the surface of the concrete and was told that they would be countersunk into the concrete and covered with 20mm of mortar - as required by the building code. But the photo shows how they were actually installed. They were protruding above the surface of the slab and they were not coated with anything to prevent them from rusting (the grey on them is just dust from the concrete). We felt this was a problem since if the steel bars rust, it will cause the concrete to spall and flake off - and this is our house foundation! JG King insisted that it wasn't necessary to protect them from rusting because they would be in the wall cavity. But the building code says that steel reinforcement needs to be protected. We didn't understand how it could be OK to have unprotected steel reinforcement protruding from the slab. Argument ensued. It was us versus the manager, the engineer, the building surveyor and the concreter, who was also present. We didn't get past wall 1. We had other concerns about other aspects of the work JG King had done. The work shown below was considerably different from the plans our engineer had seen and approved of in the meeting of April 12th: Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ After considerable argument and discussion we persuaded the building surveyor to put a stop to the work until we could at least get an independent engineer to look at it. Re: Our build with JG King 23May 27, 2010 10:38 am OMG! Keep us all updated! Deemaree Kyndylan Capers: viewtopic.php?f=36&t=46852 My blog: http://www.sufficientlysufficient.blogspot.com/ Re: Our build with JG King 24May 27, 2010 11:03 am that is shocking.. JG King built my house in 4 months and I didn't have many problems.. but with all builders it depends on what tradies you get and it looks like your concreters messed up badly. I really think they need to demolish and rebuild. If the frame is right they can reuse the frame can't they? Anyway I hope you get a resolution soon... It is not fair to have your house sitting there like that for 4 months!! Re: Our build with JG King 25May 27, 2010 12:17 pm Wakeboardandy - I think the issue isn't just that mistakes are made - it's how they're fixed. As for demolish and rebuild - it's easier said than done. If you read above, you'll see that our opinions don't always count. When we objected to one aspect of the repair (the cut brick approach), we were ignored. Also, as you will see as I continue the saga, the frame enters the picture soon too. At this point, things diverge because a number of different issues began emerging, so I'll describe them to you all one by one and welcome any advice or input from anyone who has had similar problems. I'll start with the one I left off with in my last post - the unprotected steel reinforcement protruding from the top of the slab. Although JG King insisted to us that there was no need to provide any sort of protection to the metal dowels that were protruding from the top of the slab, they apparently had a change of heart after we got an agreement from the building surveyor to put a stop order on the work until we could have an independent engineer assess it. We came back to the site two days later with the independent engineer. The JG King manager also attended this inspection. What we now found was this... Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ They had cut the metal dowels a little shorter and had covered the dowels with epoxy. Our engineer told us that the dowels should have been treated with a cold galvanizing treatment, but since they had already been covered with epoxy... The problem was, that quite a few weren't covered completely, so they are still prone to rust: Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ I thought we had an agreement from the manager at the time that they would at least completely cover these. But I must have been wrong, because they have still not been covered. So I sent an email to the manager yesterday asking if it would be rectified. I'll let you all know what happens with it. If anyone reading this has any experience with steel protruding from slabs like this, please let me know what you think. Re: Our build with JG King 26May 27, 2010 1:06 pm Have you thought about getting Today Tonight or A Current Affair involved. Companies tend to be more proactive to prevent negative publicity. contract signed: Nov 09 Released to Construction: 23 Jul 10 Slab poured: 9 Aug 10 Frame completed: 30 Aug 10 Windows & Gutters: 7 Sep 10 Bricks: 15 - 23 Sep 10 Roof: 24 Sep 10 Gyprock: 20 Oct 10 Lockup: 25 Oct 10 Kitchen: 27 Oct 10 Tiling: 6 - 9 Nov 10 Painting: 17 Nov 10 Carpet: 30 Nov 10 PCI: 15 Dec 10 Handover: 17 Dec 10 https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=35943 Re: Our build with JG King 27May 27, 2010 1:42 pm Copied from the Consumer Affairs website For free assistance and advice about defective work when building, renovating, extending or repairing a house, contact Consumer Affairs Victoria on 1300 55 75 59. Building disputes If you cannot resolve a dispute with your builder, contact Consumer Affairs Victoria on 1300 55 75 59 for free advice and conciliation. • If there is evidence of defective building work, we may arrange technical inspections by a Building Commission inspector to assist conciliation. • If there is evidence a builder has broken the law, we can take action against them, including seeking redress for affected consumers. • We may suggest you take your building dispute to the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal if you cannot reach agreement through voluntary conciliation. Re: Our build with JG King 28May 27, 2010 2:18 pm Carlswill and mdzzj- we have tried to give JG King every opportunity to fix this. It would be best for all of us to reach an acceptable solution. Despite everything, I've been hoping we still can. But we've run out of patience. If we can't get the problems resolved this week, we will be submitting a complaint to the BACV. Another problem - the steel angle. The east wall of our house is about 9.3 metres long. On this wall of the house, we had a frame overhang. The frame was over the slab by 65 mm at one end and the overhang tapered to 0 mm at the other end: http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/hiker_album/DSC05868-1.jpg According to the Guide to Standards and Tolerances, the maximum allowable frame overhang is 10 mm. Our engineer suggested that the best solution to this would be to use a high quality repair mortar to fill in the gap underneath the frame overhang and to also extend the brick rebate width. JG King decided to instead bolt a steel angle to the slab to support the frame overhang. Our engineer said that would be OK. So, here is the steel angle supporting the frame: Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/hiker_album/DSC07114.jpg http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/hiker_album/DSC07115.jpg http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/hiker_album/DSC07144.jpg http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/hiker_album/DSC07116.jpg As you can see, for most of its length the steel angle does not even touch the frame, so how can it support it? Also, the angle is not level with the slab where a large sliding door will go - so I don't understand how it will support the door either. I sent an email to the local JG King manager about this on the 12th May. He replied: "I met the concretor on site this morning & have directed him to make the angle tight underneath the bottom plate." As of Tuesday afternoon (25th May - the last time we were on site), it had not been fixed. All that had changed was that the metal strapping had been placed over the top of it. Oh - also, they had to cut the metal angle so it wouldn't protrude too far out beyond the frame and they were supposed to cold galvanize the cut face. I don't think they've done that - it's starting to rust already. I don't know what is going on here but as I said above, we are on our last week. I sent another email to the local JG King manager yesterday, including photos so there could be no confusion about what I am talking about. If it doesn't get fixed now we have no choice but to go to the BACV. But it's going to take a while to write up the complaint, because there's more... Re: Our build with JG King 29May 27, 2010 2:37 pm geez hiker, that is one of the worst cases I have seen on here of a slab... it doesn't sound like they are going to fix it.. so looks like you are going to have to go to consumer affairs... Whoever made this original mistake should not be allowed to work for a constructions company ever again!! Re: Our build with JG King 30May 27, 2010 2:44 pm wakeboardandy - yeah - everyone we have talked to , or who has seen it has said the same thing - when it comes to overhangs and underhangs, our slab is about the worst they've seen. As things have progressed they have just gotten worse. As you'll see from my posts so far and the next few, we're now trying to get them to repair the repairs and to repair damage caused by the repairs. The parging... On part of the east wall that I talked about in my last post, the frame overhang was still over 10 mm but JG King did not use an angle. Instead, in this section they decided to use a repair mortar to fill in the gap under the frame and thereby support the frame. This is what it looked like when we saw it after the concreter did it (this photo was taken on 15th May): Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ It was raining when they did it. I thought they would obviously repair it, but 10 days later, this is how it looks: Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ It hasn't been repaired. Instead the framers have installed the metal strap over it! I included this in the email I sent to the local manager yesterday. So far I haven't received any reply. Re: Our build with JG King 31May 27, 2010 3:06 pm Ring that Consumer Affairs number above ASAP- even before getting a response from the builder-it will give you even more ammunition! Deemaree Kyndylan Capers: viewtopic.php?f=36&t=46852 My blog: http://www.sufficientlysufficient.blogspot.com/ Re: Our build with JG King 33May 27, 2010 4:09 pm Putting this all together on here so far has been a good exercise and has helped me to see it more clearly. You're right - the BACV should be involved at this point. In the meantime, here's another part of the story... The brick rebate widths Our house is designed to have 20 mm foilboard insulation on the outside of the frame. According to the guide for standards and tolerances, the cavity - between the outside of the foilboard and the bricks - has to be at least 25 mm wide. Our house plans specify a brick rebate width of 150 mm. If 45 mm is taken up by the foilboard and the cavity, this leaves 105 mm for the bricks - so by design there will be a brick overhang of 5 mm. Clearly, the rebate should have been wider, but at the time we knew nothing about it all. When we originally asked JG King to include the foilboard, nobody told us about the cavity width and brick overhang issues. The maximum allowable brick overhang is 15 mm, so 5 mm is probably OK. But, when we were looking at the slab at some point in this whole process, we noticed a strange thing. Here are some of the photos we took (these photos are looking down onto the top of the brick rebate and the ruler is measuring the rebate width): http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/hiker_album/W16.jpg http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/hiker_album/W15.jpg http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/hiker_album/W14-nearEend.jpg http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/hiker_album/W13-nearNend.jpg http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/hiker_album/W12-nearEend.jpg http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/hiker_album/W11-Nend.jpg http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/hiker_album/W10.jpg http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/hiker_album/W8.jpg I think you get the picture. These photos were all taken on different walls of the house. We have more for other walls. In short, although the plans specified a 150 mm rebate width, the rebate width was actually 130-140 mm around almost the entire house. This has been a contentious point ever since. I'll spare you most of the details of the discussions. Here is a quote from the Project Meeting Report prepared by JG King's engineer after the April 12th meeting with them: "some concern by [hiker] re measured width of the existing slab rebate varying between 135 mm at cnr. 1 to 145 mm at cnr 2. This will result in 10-15 mm overhang and may even exceed 15 mm overhang wrt Guide to Tolerances and Standards - Building Commission. [hiker] reluctant to accept this despite it being non-structural." JG King's engineer felt that up to one third of the brick could overhang the rebate and it would be structurally sound. I was criticised for objecting to anything more than the upper limit in the Guide to Standards and Tolerances. JG King decided that a 140 mm rebate is acceptable and because of the places where the slab extended in front of the frame (thus essentially adding to the distance between the bricks and the frame) this 140 mm requirement would be met around the entire house. With the 20 mm foilboard and a minimum 25 mm cavity, this leaves 95 mm for the bricks i.e. there will be a 15 mm overhang (because the bricks are 110 mm wide but there is only 95 mm of concrete rebate for them). 15 mm is the upper limit for brick overhang allowed in the Guide to Standards and Tolerances. So what I don't understand is - if the brick wall is designed to have a 15 mm overhang and a 25 mm cavity, how does the brick wall get built without going beyond the limits set in the Guide to Standards and Tolerances? The poor brickie will not have any room for error at all - if he is 1 mm out either way he is immediately beyond the supposed limit of tolerance. In the end, we are bound to exceed the limits set in the Guide. JG King insisted the entire rebate met this 140 mm requirement. But here are some pictures showing that it does not. In some cases, we used a spirit level to make sure we were measuring the distance from the frame to the edge of the rebate: 100 mm: http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/hiker_album/rebate1.jpg 130 mm: http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/hiker_album/rebate4.jpg 130 mm: http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/hiker_album/rebate3.jpg 125 mm: http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/hiker_album/rebate2.jpg 135 mm: http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/hiker_album/rebate5.jpg If we can easily find places where the rebate is insufficient, why couldn't the builder find them? ...and there's still more to come... but I have to work on something else for a while now... Re: Our build with JG King 34May 27, 2010 4:47 pm I can't believe what you've been through so far, and you still haven't told us all of it. Very concerning. Maybe building a new house isn't such a good idea. contract signed: Nov 09 Released to Construction: 23 Jul 10 Slab poured: 9 Aug 10 Frame completed: 30 Aug 10 Windows & Gutters: 7 Sep 10 Bricks: 15 - 23 Sep 10 Roof: 24 Sep 10 Gyprock: 20 Oct 10 Lockup: 25 Oct 10 Kitchen: 27 Oct 10 Tiling: 6 - 9 Nov 10 Painting: 17 Nov 10 Carpet: 30 Nov 10 PCI: 15 Dec 10 Handover: 17 Dec 10 https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=35943 Re: Our build with JG King 35May 27, 2010 5:17 pm I hope JG King read this forum.. as they need to pull their finger out or people aren't going to build with them after reading this. Re: Our build with JG King 37May 27, 2010 5:42 pm hiker Unfortunately, I suspect similar things happen with most project home builders once something goes wrong. Hiker, we are on our 4th build-and all have been with project builders (different each time). In our experience, whenever there has been an issue things have been rectified to contracted standards-you seem to have really drawn the short straw! Deemaree Kyndylan Capers: viewtopic.php?f=36&t=46852 My blog: http://www.sufficientlysufficient.blogspot.com/ Re: Our build with JG King 38May 27, 2010 6:47 pm God thats terrible, I'd be speaking very seriously to a lawyer, so many mistakes! my new build thread- Ben Trager https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=89826 my switch build thread (2011) https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=36569 Re: Our build with JG King 39May 27, 2010 8:02 pm The frame The steel frame of our house has not fared too well during all this repair work. In some places, use of cutting and grinding tools adjacent to the frame has resulted in scrapes to the frame that have removed the zinc-based anti-rust coating. These sections are already showing rust. Here are some examples: Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ According to our structural engineer's report and according to BlueScope Steel, any place where the abrasion is greater than 2 mm in width (as all of the above examples easily are) needs to be coated with a zinc-based primer so that it won't rust. BUT use of this primer voids BlueScope's warranty on the frame. In fact, the damage itself has probably voided the warranty. But JG King advertise that 50 year warranty. We have been told there is a 50 year warranty on the frame. So JG King need to fix the frame and also make sure the warranty is intact. They have not discussed this with us and I don't know how they plan to fix the frame problems while still providing an intact BlueScope warranty to us. Re: Our build with JG King 40May 27, 2010 8:24 pm Some more frame pictures. No attempt was made to keep the frame clean or dry during the delay caused by the slab problem. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ I would never build with Fowler homes. I built with them in 2021 and till date maintenance issues are pending. All their existing trades and businesses don't work with… 14 73960 1 1054 Thank you so much everyone. This all makes a lot of sense. I guess when you talk to a builder who butters up everything to look very polished, you get to start believing… 8 2249 |