Browse Forums Building A New House 1 Dec 30, 2009 8:53 pm Hi Everyone I am new to this forum, and would like your input on my build, which i am not at all happy with Builder has been real slow at getting anything done and I have had every excuse told to me that you can imagine. Slab was poured on 30 Nov 09. I was then told frame stage would commence, well on the 18 dec still no frame, emailed them and was told yes we will be on site on the 18 or 19 dec, and frame will be completed by christmas, yeah right. The eventually started frame on the 22nd dec, only south side of outer wall was completed, however I had concerns then about the slab and frame. 23rd dec, wall frames up, but one to master bedroom and garage are not up, so no trusses or windows either, but now it gets intresting, someone has made a huge mistake laying the slab as it is to small on the outer garage wall and the master bedroom/ portico wall, their fix , well we will just add a bit on here, and here and we will just trim the slab here and we will leave gaps here, don;t know whats going to happen here. So thats it for the framers no one on site on the 24th, I got a email sent by builder on 23rd, that I never got until 24th when they are all on holiday untill the 11 jan, telling me that the frame stage of my home was now complete and a invoice has been sent. We mus has differing opinions of frame stage as I thought that included all walls, trusses and windows fitted. I emailed them back then and said they was no way I was paying the invoice as its not complete, along with my concerns re the slab. Also on the master bedroom frame overhangs the slab by a considerable amount. Yesterday I got the frame stage invoice in the mail and even more annoying the date of the invoice was the 21/12/09, they hadn't even started on that day, yet anone completed the frame satge. Any wasy I have attached photos showing the defects. Sorry about my rant and my spelling, I am tired and I have had it with this lot[ [img][/i[IMG]http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac139/arrowl/house/th_28-12-20094-15-37PM_0094.jpg[/img]mg] Building in Country Victoria Deposit Paid 7/12/2008 Colours 5/5/2009 Contract Signed 1/7/2009 Finance approval 16/7/2009 Site Scrape 28/10/2009 Slab 30/11/2009 Re: What do you think of this? 2Dec 30, 2009 9:04 pm That is bizarre! I would seriously consider hiring a company to do a professional inspection before you pay the framing stage draw down. It may cause you delays but at least you will be reassured that your house is stable and safe! I would not be happy either. I have never seen anything like it! Good luck and keep us posted Building the Coral Baroness 274 Check out our blog www.ourbaroness.blogspot.com Re: What do you think of this? 3Dec 30, 2009 9:08 pm Geezzzz, messy building. I would not pay it either, what a hide to send invoice out before job was even started. I would go to management and see what they say. Not sure about bedroom wall???? Dosnt look correct Cherie Re: What do you think of this? 4Dec 30, 2009 9:14 pm Hi ! That's fairly common in the building industry. The slab must have been out by a few hundred mm's. They will go back out and box up that area of the slab. You can get a building inspector out, but it shouldn't affect the structural integrity. Most building companies go on leave during Xmas, so that's not unusual either. Also, the draw-downs are done at a substantial completion stage. Normally, the frame work doesn't include windows as that's a separate stage. It's not payment for your frame per se, but a percentage of your contract. It's your choice whether you pay, but be aware that builders can put construction on hold for non-payment. It may not be worth it in the end. I'm sure that the deadline on the invoice doesn't matter because they're away until mid-January anyway. The framework will be completed once the trades get back in early January. It's all normal construction processes. Try to relax and enjoy the holidays ! Re: What do you think of this? 5Dec 30, 2009 9:19 pm I think it happens quite often that the invoices are sent out when the work is scheduled to be completed, rather than the reality of when it is actually complete. Absolutely wouldn't pay it, and if the builder is reasonable I don't think they would expect you to pay it until the frame stage is complete.... especially with the problems they are having with fitting the frame on the slab. I would also want to get that work inspected.... Good luck Re: What do you think of this? 6Dec 30, 2009 9:22 pm well I certainly wouldnt pay up and agree that an independant inspection maybe required. Better to rectify things now than try and do it later. Also send the message this kind of workmanship & behaviour is not acceptable. My builder was slow for a while and missed some dates but I have never had to question the quality of their work, its been top rate and in the end they did hit their xmas targets. Good Luck Blog: http://funmore-residence.blogspot.com/ Forum: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=21109 Construction Start - 19/09/09 Slab Poured - 21/10/09 Frame Completed - 25/11/09 Lockup - 22/12/09 Fixing - 22/02/10 Handover & Moved In 30/04/2010 Re: What do you think of this? 7Dec 30, 2009 10:37 pm What does your contract describe the frame stage as? ie: does it include just the walls or the trusses as well? Our contract briefly details what must be complete for each stage to be considered finished. Lower frame stage (2nd payment) for us was lower level walls and the upper flooring complete Upper frame stage (3rd payment) was the upper level walls and roof trusses Our windows weren't included until the 4th payment Re: What do you think of this? 8Dec 31, 2009 7:20 am Hi, I can so relate to this ... A few thoughts .. 0) First, read your contract and tender. All houses must be built to comply with standards. 1) master bedroom frame overhang - this is clearly outside tolerances (max allowed is 10mm). Write to them and say that it falls outside the standards by more than the max tolerance, request them to involve the appointed structural engineer to draw up the rectification, and ask them to fix it according to those engineer's plans. You can also ask for engineer's certificate after the fix to say that they are satisfied with the rectification works. 2) Extensions to the slab - same as above. It is imperative to get the structural engineer Plans, inspection and certiifcate that this is OK. Have you been there while they were doing it? Have they used reo bars in the add-on areas? 3) Frame as a bridge over air - will this be fixed by adding more slab alongside all of that wall?? If yeas, same as above. Basically, for something like this, you have to get the structural engineer. Do you know who that is for your project? If the builder is refusing to inveolve them, try talking to the structural engineer directly, to hear their opinion - I'm sure they are going to tell you that they must be involved in soemthign like this. If your builder still refuses to respond or to fix, write them an official Letter of Demand to fix it (this is just a formality, so you can go to Fair Trading). The letter should clearly say what the problem is, what do you want done (ie. be fixed in accordance with industry standards) and give them a deadline to fix it (eg. a week in this case, not sure). You can also add that you will have no choice but involve the Dept of FT if they don't respond and fix it. Check your contract re. your responsibility to pay. We ourselves are trapped, as it clearly says that we must pay even if the works are not OK ... and they can claim we breached the contract if we don't pay ... therefore they can end the contract plus request us to pay any sum of money as their "compensation". I don't worry at all if they put the works on hold. That's what you actually want and need. It buys you time while the structural issues are sorted (all this investigation and organising takes so much time). And, since your plywood floor is not there yet, you don't have to worry about the rain!! BTW, windows are not a biggie at all. They can always be put in. They put them loosely in the first place anyway. They don't support anything, they almost like "hang" in their allocated locations by some big nails until the plaster is in ... and they may need to readjust them after the plaster anyway ... Keep us posted and best of luck! Keep referring to your contract and study the Standards and Tolerances 2007 doco. What about contacting Kevin or Alex if you are not too far from Melb? Oh yeah, have you contacted your PCA ? I would. You should be able to get him on site for free. My signature is distracting people from my wise posts ... Re: What do you think of this? 9Dec 31, 2009 7:45 am Hi Arrowl Independant inspection will give you a greater peace of mind and this document http://www.buildingcommission.com.au/re ... IDE_07.pdf Re: What do you think of this? 10Dec 31, 2009 7:56 am buzz I think it happens quite often that the invoices are sent out when the work is scheduled to be completed, rather than the reality of when it is actually complete. Absolutely wouldn't pay it, and if the builder is reasonable I don't think they would expect you to pay it until the frame stage is complete.... especially with the problems they are having with fitting the frame on the slab. I would also want to get that work inspected.... Good luck Buzz is correct - the accounts department are separate to the construction people and issue invoices based on information they're given, which isn't always up to date. Invoices often arrive before a stage is complete and it's no big deal. Just politely inform the contact on the invoice (in writing) that the stage is not in fact complete and that you will ensure prompt payment once it is. You're not obliged to pay for incomplete work. Trades are booked for certain dates, but don't always show up for a number of reasons (weather, delays on another build, illness....) and while your SS should be on top of those things, the people in the office will have no idea, and just act on the info in the computer system. It's frustrating when delays happen, but it's entirely normal. As for the slab being wrong, that happens a lot more often that you might think. It should be an easy fix. Try to relax and enjoy the Christmas break. I bet things move along quickly come February. Re: What do you think of this? 11Jan 04, 2010 8:50 am Hi arrowl, It is stated in the Domestic Building Contracts Act 1995, frame stage means the stage when a home's frame is completed and approved by a building surveyor (usually the person who issued the building permit). (You can check the frame stage definition in your contract as well.) You can call the building surveyor who issued your building permit and find out if the frame inspection has been completed. (The building surveyors details should be listed in your building permit). I don't think the building surveyor will pass the frame if the frame overhang is not properly rectified. If the frame has not been approved by the building surveyor you don't have to pay for frame stage and it is illegal for the builder to claim frame stage progress payment. But I think its a common practice. The builder just wants the money. If these progress claim is a scheduled invoice, I am just wondering if the accounts department of these builders also pay their tradies on the scheduled day, even if they have not done the work? I am sure the story is quite different when the builder has to pay. I held up the frame stage progress payment untill the frame was approved. Hope you get everything sorted. Re: What do you think of this? 12Jan 04, 2010 5:13 pm itsmeud Hi arrowl, It is stated in the Domestic Building Contracts Act 1995, frame stage means the stage when a home's frame is completed and approved by a building surveyor (usually the person who issued the building permit). (You can check the frame stage definition in your contract as well.) You can call the building surveyor who issued your building permit and find out if the frame inspection has been completed. (The building surveyors details should be listed in your building permit). I don't think the building surveyor will pass the frame if the frame overhang is not properly rectified. If the frame has not been approved by the building surveyor you don't have to pay for frame stage and it is illegal for the builder to claim frame stage progress payment. But I think its a common practice. The builder just wants the money. If these progress claim is a scheduled invoice, I am just wondering if the accounts department of these builders also pay their tradies on the scheduled day, even if they have not done the work? I am sure the story is quite different when the builder has to pay. I held up the frame stage progress payment untill the frame was approved. Hope you get everything sorted. Hi, I need some help here ... could you tell me where did you find that it is illegal for the builder to claim payment? (I'm just trying to be prepared...) Our contract actually states that we must pay, even if the works are not good ... My signature is distracting people from my wise posts ... No. It's not original. Circa early to mid 90s would be my guess and maybe even as late as early 2000s 1 6636 Looking to start the journey of becoming an owner builder in SA. Feeling pretty (overly) confident on the building and construction details, but really struggling to find… 0 8424 A question. 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