Browse Forums Building A New House 1 Jun 15, 2009 10:44 am Has anyone building with a project builder or other, been asked to sign a document informing you (telling you) you are not allowed on site. They put it over as an Occ. Health & Safety issue. The OH & S I understand, well sort of. Is it legal that they demand you to apply in writing to them to enter the site or be accompanied by the supervisor? The letter also states that if you don’t follow the procedure you will not be allowed on your site until hand over. They also put in a disclaimer if you do injurer yourself they are not responsible. Interesting one minute they say you cant go on you block to look at the home you are paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for in case you hurt your self then on the next line they say if you do hurt your self due to us not having and keeping a safe site you cant sue us. ( if the builder dose not keep a safe site they are in breach of the O, H & S act, them self.) I thought statutory law over ruled common law always. Is this letter, condition common with all builders? Did you get one from your builder, was it in the contract? Thanks to all KW………….. “It's just as unpleasant to get more than you bargain for as to get less” George Bernard Shaw. Re: Access to your building site. 2Jun 15, 2009 11:50 am We were told about it when signing contracts and I'm pretty sure there is something in the contract about it too but I can't remember now. We were also asked by our SS to stay off the site once it got to lock-up as there was an incident on another site where a child stood on a nail. So now I request an on site meeting with the SS when I want to have a look around. It is a PITA but what can you do??? Blog: http://bluemistkids.blogspot.com "Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, and professionals built the Titanic." Re: Access to your building site. 3Jun 15, 2009 12:16 pm It is specified in our contract. However we have a really lovely SS who lets us onsite. But we understand that it is always at our own risk and can never claim any damages from them. Things may change once we are at lock up however. Some things are worth waiting for. Re: Access to your building site. 4Jun 15, 2009 12:18 pm King willy Has anyone building with a project builder or other, been asked to sign a document informing you (telling you) you are not allowed on site. They put it over as an Occ. Health & Safety issue. The OH & S I understand, well sort of. Is it legal that they demand you to apply in writing to them to enter the site or be accompanied by the supervisor? The letter also states that if you don’t follow the procedure you will not be allowed on your site until hand over. They also put in a disclaimer if you do injurer yourself they are not responsible. Interesting one minute they say you cant go on you block to look at the home you are paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for in case you hurt your self then on the next line they say if you do hurt your self due to us not having and keeping a safe site you cant sue us. ( if the builder dose not keep a safe site they are in breach of the O, H & S act, them self.) I thought statutory law over ruled common law always. Is this letter, condition common with all builders? Did you get one from your builder, was it in the contract? Thanks to all KW………….. I'll be going to my site and looking around whenever I want. But if anything happens to myself or my DS that's our problem. That's the thing, the builders let people on, someone steps on a nail, then suddenly someone's getting sued. You can't blame the builders for taking a hard line approach and saying don't go there at all until the site is prepared for visitors and under the supervision of the SS. Even the first post of this thread there was the mention of wanting to go there..... then wondering about legal standing if something happens. Not having a go King Willy, but when site access and terms such as "sue" are used in the same paragraph, it's no wonder the builders get a bit nervous and take the approach they do. At the end of the day it's a building site, unless you are an OB, you have handed over the site to whoever is doing the construction for you. They have control until handover, that's part of the deal. We live in a litigious society, restriction of personal freedom is one of the prices we pay. I don't think this is the builders' fault, it's just indicative of the society we live in. Like I said, I'll go there, but if one of us gets hurt, I won't be heading straight to my lawyer, because all that does is make it even more restrctive and harder for the next client. I leave you to fend for yourself, figure things out yourself. Terrence Malick Re: Access to your building site. 5Jun 15, 2009 12:32 pm joles King willy Has anyone building with a project builder or other, been asked to sign a document informing you (telling you) you are not allowed on site. They put it over as an Occ. Health & Safety issue. The OH & S I understand, well sort of. Is it legal that they demand you to apply in writing to them to enter the site or be accompanied by the supervisor? The letter also states that if you don’t follow the procedure you will not be allowed on your site until hand over. They also put in a disclaimer if you do injurer yourself they are not responsible. Interesting one minute they say you cant go on you block to look at the home you are paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for in case you hurt your self then on the next line they say if you do hurt your self due to us not having and keeping a safe site you cant sue us. ( if the builder dose not keep a safe site they are in breach of the O, H & S act, them self.) I thought statutory law over ruled common law always. Is this letter, condition common with all builders? Did you get one from your builder, was it in the contract? Thanks to all KW………….. I'll be going to my site and looking around whenever I want. But if anything happens to myself or my DS that's our problem. That's the thing, the builders let people on, someone steps on a nail, then suddenly someone's getting sued. You can't blame the builders for taking a hard line approach and saying don't go there at all until the site is prepared for visitors and under the supervision of the SS. Even the first post of this thread there was the mention of wanting to go there..... then wondering about legal standing if something happens. Not having a go King Willy, but when site access and terms such as "sue" are used in the same paragraph, it's no wonder the builders get a bit nervous and take the approach they do. At the end of the day it's a building site, unless you are an OB, you have handed over the site to whoever is doing the construction for you. They have control until handover, that's part of the deal. We live in a litigious society, restriction of personal freedom is one of the prices we pay. I don't think this is the builders' fault, it's just indicative of the society we live in. Like I said, I'll go there, but if one of us gets hurt, I won't be heading straight to my lawyer, because all that does is make it even more restrictive and harder for the next client. What she said! I'm an adult and if I hurt myself then I accept it's generally my own fault. 'A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world.' Louis Pasteur Vegie garden: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=27637&start=0 My Backyard Adventure Re: Access to your building site. 6Jun 15, 2009 12:47 pm And this is why the majority of builders will lock the site up completely - that way you can't get in. Sad to think that in this day the builders have to worry about people suing them when they have blatantly disregarded the OH&S rules put in place for a reason. Whatever happened to taking responsibility for your own actions? Seems to have become a thing of the past. Some things are worth waiting for. Re: Access to your building site. 7Jun 15, 2009 12:54 pm Coral give you a construction key, big ups to Coral I think its excellent customer service, a home is the most important purchase you will ever make. Al & Caitie- Building the Hamilton 278 (Coral) at Narangba Re: Access to your building site. 8Jun 15, 2009 12:58 pm i agree alk - i don't want to be peering in at my beautiful kitchen through the windows! and from what i have heard lots of little mistakes can be picked up when you have access to the site that wouldn't have otherwise been noticed...and the earlier you pick them up the quicker they get fixed...hopefully! 2014 - Prepping to build the Soho 4 with Plantation homes, industrial style 2009 - Built the Brampton with Coral Homes viewtopic.php?f=31&t=15399&start=280 Re: Access to your building site. 9Jun 15, 2009 1:14 pm alk Coral give you a construction key, big ups to Coral I think its excellent customer service, a home is the most important purchase you will ever make. Now that's the sign of a good builder. (See the OH&S excuse does not hold water!) Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Re: Access to your building site. 10Jun 15, 2009 1:27 pm Casa2 alk Coral give you a construction key, big ups to Coral I think its excellent customer service, a home is the most important purchase you will ever make. Now that's the sign of a good builder. (See the OH&S excuse does not hold water!) Or they just haven't been sued yet. I'm not saying it is correct, I'm just saying it's understandable. In a perfect world, all the builders would be like Coral. But if I ran a building company, in this day and age of people suing left, right and centre, I wouldn't run the risk. I leave you to fend for yourself, figure things out yourself. Terrence Malick Re: Access to your building site. 11Jun 15, 2009 2:29 pm Are the OH&S rules the same in Qld compared to Vic? Do they use temp fencing in Qld now? they never used to. Seems it may still be more relaxed up there. BTW I would love a key to the house but I can't ever see PD doing that Blog: http://bluemistkids.blogspot.com "Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, and professionals built the Titanic." Re: Access to your building site. 12Jun 15, 2009 4:51 pm When you sign your contract there is a clause in there giving your builder exclusive license to your land (meaning they can ask you to leave the property if you are there). As some of the others said, whilst everyone wants to get inside & look at their beautiful new home, there are that type of people in society that would sue the builder if something happened to them rather than taking blame themselves. Depends on councils too about temp fencing. It's a requirement in most melbourne councils, but generally not in regional vic. Re: Access to your building site. 13Jun 15, 2009 5:15 pm I'm guessing that your builder has probably come across issues in the past. We actually live on site, well in a shed not far from where the house is being built, we have never signed anything like that (although I do remember reading something on the topic ), but they did put up a sign (which was blown away eventually) that it's a construction site etc. We pretty much used common sense and generally waited until workers had left for the day to have a look (and take pictures) of the progress, of course it's at our own risk, and it was made clear to the kids that they were not to play up there. Luckily for us, a combination of living here and being in a rural location the house has never been locked up, even now that it's at lock up stage! So we have had the luxury of following the progress very closely throughout the process. Mind you again due to the location I think our supervisor generally visited once a week at best (depending on what was going on and where he was heading at the time). I would hope that your supervisor would be reasonable in allowing you access, like they have stated you would have to accept the risk I guess but I imagine a lot would also depend on the location, they might not be locking up to prevent you going in, maybe more so to prevent theft and vandalism as well! If you are worried about the quality you can always let them know that you will be getting an independent inspector at the various stages (and thus make appointments for the inspector to go through). Re: Access to your building site. 14Jun 15, 2009 5:29 pm Building with Coral 2009 i agree alk - i don't want to be peering in at my beautiful kitchen through the windows! and from what i have heard lots of little mistakes can be picked up when you have access to the site that wouldn't have otherwise been noticed...and the earlier you pick them up the quicker they get fixed...hopefully! You betcha........this is how we found out that : they'd forgotten ot install our vacpan they'd forgotten to pack out our cornices they'd installed the wrong kitchen benchtop they'd put 1 p/point in the wrong place they'd put 1 light switch in the wrong place & all of these WE picked up weeks ago. So now we can get in to our house on time & not be delayed by their mistakes. But eventually, the builder got stroppy with a few of his customers & we were all told to stay off the sites Built the Eden Brae Cambridge 34 Family with Boston Corner Facade Re: Access to your building site. 15Jun 15, 2009 6:00 pm I'll definitely be going onto my site whenever I want to. I bought it, the bank paid for it and I won't let any builder tell me to stay off my own land. I want to make sure that the job is being done right and that there will be no mistakes that will have to be fixed later, or told tough, if it is too late. Besides, it's just plain interesting to watch the house get built. Re: Access to your building site. 16Jun 15, 2009 7:34 pm Hi all Let’s not forget our rights as owners. You will find that building contracts are made by builders for builders. The Act that governs them is the Domestic Building Act 1995. A lot of stuff that’s put before you to sign is not legal but worth a try. I make this post for the benefit of all and point out it is always best to seek qualified legal advice before signing any contract or taking information from this site & or this post. Division 3—Provisions concerning building sites Sect: 17 Restrictions on builders' control of building sites: A domestic building contract does not give a builder a greater right to occupy a building site than that of a contractual licensee. Contractual licensee. That’s you & me. MBBN "When you sign your contract there is a clause in there giving your builder exclusive license to your land (meaning they can ask you to leave the property if you are there)." MBBN I think you will find that’s not in any contract. If so you should bring it to the attention of the Building Commission. See Sect: 17 above. Yes, we all know there are people out there that take advantage of the situation when something goes wrong. But my point is this. A builder by law has to provide a safe & healthy work place and follow the OH& S Act. They have to have several types of insurance to protect them selves also. So, if you are doing the right thing and have a safe work site why do you ask your client to sign a document that if you hurt yourself and it’s their fault you will not take action. If the kid from next door kicks his football over the fence into the site. What then, does he have to sign a document to go onto the site so he can get it back, just in case he cuts himself on the broken glass that was meant to be cleaned up on Friday arvo. Sect 19: Access to building site (1) A builder must permit the building owner (or a person authorised by the building owner) to have reasonable access to the building site and to view any part of the building works. Penalty: 20 penalty units. (yes builders can be fine for this ****) What gets my guts is that the builders will try this **** on and expect us to believe it, and as illistrated most do. Casa2 You are correct; the OH&S excuse is full of holes. Even if you do sign it, it is void as the DB Contracts Act is Statutory Law and Statutory over rides common law. Joles "Even the first post of this thread there was the mention of wanting to go there..... then wondering about legal standing if something happens. Not having a go King Willy, but when site access and terms such as "sue" are used in the same paragraph, it's no wonder the builders get a bit nervous and take the approach they do." Joles, no problem. But picture this. A guy like you and me and wife and the 3 kids are standing out the front of our 300k dream home having your photo taken. Then a strong gust of wind blows off a roof truss that was put up at 4.55pm on Friday but not tide down. It lands on our 2 year old and he is now in hospital. Are you telling me you were glad you signed that document and would still understand why builders take the approach they do. By the way this is only an example not aimed at you or "having a go." People remember you have every right to access your site and do so in a safe environment. Sorry for the rant but the King has spoken. Regards to all KW........... “It's just as unpleasant to get more than you bargain for as to get less” George Bernard Shaw. Re: Access to your building site. 17Jun 15, 2009 7:46 pm King willy People remember you have every right to access your site and do so in a safe environment. Sorry for the rant but the King has spoken. Regards to all KW........... Ah well, basically we are screwed and our house hasn't even started to be built - our site alone is a freak show just from the site works!!!!! On a serious note, our builder has told us that we will always have full access to our site and to our build. As he said, nobody knows our house better than us! JL Re: Access to your building site. 18Jun 15, 2009 7:54 pm Thanks King Willy. Well put. Best of all, it looks like in Victoria at least, an owner can visit the site whenever they please (in a safe manner of course). Actually, when I think about it, it's all about safety. Sure, visit your site, but not with children. Sure walk around, but don't go climbing. Keep safety in mind at all times, but why not see your baby grow and be a part of it. Let's face it, regardless of what builders do or say, everyone having their house built will go on site when no-ones around. Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Re: Access to your building site. 19Jun 15, 2009 8:03 pm We did not sign a document saying this and were not even told to stay off the site, we went there most days (it was only 1 km from our old house) and walked into the house, sometimes tradespeople were there and we just asked if they minded us haveing a look at things, no-one ever objected. Then several months into the build, a temporary fence appeared around the whole development - as I understand it, this was to combat theft and vandalism rather than to keep owners off site. We still went into the house during the day sometimes (when the fence was open) and a couple of times we arranged for the house to be open so we could get in there for a purpose - say, to measure something - never had any issues with this or any talk of sueing. Many new houses here do not have temporary fencing so must not be a legal requirement in SA - ours was a large development of 34 house/land packages, all same builder. We were not charged for temporary fencing. Re: Access to your building site. 20Jun 15, 2009 8:06 pm King willy Hi all Let’s not forget our rights as owners. You will find that building contracts are made by builders for builders. The Act that governs them is the Domestic Building Act 1995. A lot of stuff that’s put before you to sign is not legal but worth a try. I make this post for the benefit of all and point out it is always best to seek qualified legal advice before signing any contract or taking information from this site & or this post. Division 3—Provisions concerning building sites Sect: 17 Restrictions on builders' control of building sites: A domestic building contract does not give a builder a greater right to occupy a building site than that of a contractual licensee. Contractual licensee. That’s you & me. MBBN "When you sign your contract there is a clause in there giving your builder exclusive license to your land (meaning they can ask you to leave the property if you are there)." MBBN I think you will find that’s not in any contract. If so you should bring it to the attention of the Building Commission. See Sect: 17 above. Yes, we all know there are people out there that take advantage of the situation when something goes wrong. But my point is this. A builder by law has to provide a safe & healthy work place and follow the OH& S Act. They have to have several types of insurance to protect them selves also. So, if you are doing the right thing and have a safe work site why do you ask your client to sign a document that if you hurt yourself and it’s their fault you will not take action. If the kid from next door kicks his football over the fence into the site. What then, does he have to sign a document to go onto the site so he can get it back, just in case he cuts himself on the broken glass that was meant to be cleaned up on Friday arvo. Sect 19: Access to building site (1) A builder must permit the building owner (or a person authorised by the building owner) to have reasonable access to the building site and to view any part of the building works. Penalty: 20 penalty units. (yes builders can be fine for this ****) What gets my guts is that the builders will try this **** on and expect us to believe it, and as illistrated most do. No I don't accept this **** as you call it. But I do understand that to take a builder on they would argue that reasonable access is supervised access on a building site..... and I'd bet my a** most courts would agree. I save my energy for winnable battles. Casa2 You are correct; the OH&S excuse is full of holes. Even if you do sign it, it is void as the DB Contracts Act is Statutory Law and Statutory over rides common law. Joles "Even the first post of this thread there was the mention of wanting to go there..... then wondering about legal standing if something happens. Not having a go King Willy, but when site access and terms such as "sue" are used in the same paragraph, it's no wonder the builders get a bit nervous and take the approach they do." Joles, no problem. But picture this. A guy like you and me and wife and the 3 kids are standing out the front of our 300k dream home having your photo taken. Then a strong gust of wind blows off a roof truss that was put up at 4.55pm on Friday but not tide down. It lands on our 2 year old and he is now in hospital. Are you telling me you were glad you signed that document and would still understand why builders take the approach they do. By the way this is only an example not aimed at you or "having a go." Firstly, I'm not a guy. Secondly, if you were outside the area i.e the building site, then that's a whole different ball game People remember you have every right to access your site and do so in a safe environment. Sorry for the rant but the King has spoken. Regards to all KW........... King Willy..... you are just going to make what is already a very stressful process far more stressful for yourself than it needs to be. I honestly don't understand why you'd want to start a build with an "us against them" attitude towards your builder?? There seems to be this fantasy for people to want projector builder prices, custom builder flexibility and Owner Builder control. It's never going to happen. If we as consumers want the comparitively cheaper prices that project builders can offer...... we accept the limitations that come with that. If we as consumers want the amazing flexibility that a custom build can offer..... we accept the higher price tag that comes with that. If we as consumers want the control and complete access of being an owner builder...... we must accept the associated risks that come with that. BUT we as consumers will not get cheap prices, total flexibility and complete control. And it is a fantasy to think that you will get it and you will just cause yourself untold headaches. I'm not saying you are necessarily wrong.... but this is how your builder operates. You either accept it or you don't build with them. But to start off in a battle before you even turn soil wouldn't be in your best interests I wouldn't think. I wish you the best of luck, but you seem to be looking for battles and arguments where you could just work with your builder and your SS rather than against them. Most forum members manage to access their sites successfully and regularly without going to war with their builder. Just something to think about. I leave you to fend for yourself, figure things out yourself. Terrence Malick For reference, this is the Austlii reference. My take on this is, that they would be breaking the law denying access to a homeowner in Victoria, or their agent from having… 1 9094 The only thing to add to these comments is that where possible it's always good to try and work with people than just say "no" because you can. Having someone… 4 17149 |