Browse Forums Windows & Doors Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 21Jun 14, 2009 3:40 pm Ed, Surely a successful rebuttal requires not just an implication of lack of objectivity but also some facts to support your case. Dr Asif quoted a few sources that all seemed to agree on the general conclusion that PVC windows have a shorter longevity than either timber, aluminium or Al-clad windows. And that was in Europe, where the UV index is probably alot lower than here. One of the questions I've always had about PVC here is how well it will stand up to Australian summers. Do you know of any studies that show that PVC won't have problems here? Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 22Jun 14, 2009 6:04 pm hiker Ed, Surely a successful rebuttal requires not just an implication of lack of objectivity but also some facts to support your case. Dr Asif quoted a few sources that all seemed to agree on the general conclusion that PVC windows have a shorter longevity than either timber, aluminium or Al-clad windows. And that was in Europe, where the UV index is probably alot lower than here. One of the questions I've always had about PVC here is how well it will stand up to Australian summers. Do you know of any studies that show that PVC won't have problems here? Hi Hiker, Dr Asif? You presume he got his Phd...? Rebuttal? Sorry, I did not put the case, you/he did. I reject it as it is obviously biased. I supply aluminium, PVC and thermally broken PVC - and I have no problem with aluminium clad timber, just with obvious bias as in this case. Regarding suitability of PVC for Australian conditions, formulations for PVC vary across the world according to needs. The bumper of most cars these days is plastic, most things used outside are plastic, fibreglass is plastic... Also the protectants used for timber windows are... plastic. And even Nor-Dans windows are protected by ... powdercoat - which is --- PLASTIC. Sorry, it's your case (if you feel you must stand by Asif) I let it remain with you to prove. AliClad beating pure aluminium? As if !!! Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 23Jun 14, 2009 6:08 pm People, Please vote... I need the ammo to get prices down with builders. They say home buyers don't really care, I disagree, I think buyers want double glazing at sensible prices. Vote even if you don't want double glazing --- PLEEEEEAAAASSSSSSEEE... Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 24Jun 14, 2009 6:46 pm Ed I like the concept here and sorry if im stepping on toes here but i just feel the wording undermines the voter. If I was shown these results I wouldn't consider much of it, voting should be straight forward and to the point without the little emotions or extended answers. Something like Which windows would you choose? I'd prefer single glazed I'd prefer double glazed PVC I'd prefer double glazed aluminum I'd prefer double glazed timber I'm uncertain I'd pay 15% more for double glazing I'd pay 30% more for double glazing Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 25Jun 14, 2009 6:49 pm yea.. let's bring it down, ed. at least it can be more affordable. ed @ EcoClassic People, Please vote... I need the ammo to get prices down with builders. They say home buyers don't really care, I disagree, I think buyers want double glazing at sensible prices. Vote even if you don't want double glazing --- PLEEEEEAAAASSSSSSEEE... Ed Final stage Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 26Jun 14, 2009 7:15 pm This has been a great thread Ed. Learnt a lot and see you have been busy this weekend! (I voted). Noob qtn - can you explain Low-E to me. Our developer will approve aluminium windows from timber if we have Low-E or double glazing. They stated Low-E may be cheaper. Cost will be an overriding factor for us when comparing aluminium with glazing or standard timber. Unfortunately that's the reality. Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 27Jun 14, 2009 7:58 pm Ed, If the thesis made it to the university archive it's safe to assume Mr Asif received his PhD, whether we agree he deserved it or not. So I was being nice to him and referring to him as Dr Asif. He may not have been objective, but, by your own rule that receiving money destroys objectivity, neither are you. It seems in this discussion, perhaps I am the most objective as I am being paid by nobody for my opinion and stand to make no money by taking any particular side. I'm simply trying to determine what is best so that I can put that in my house. When I moved into my current house I found that the clothesline was broken. All the plastic bits had become brittle as a result of UV exposure and had broken apart. The bumper on my old Ford was originally black plastic, but after a while it faded and didn't look so good. I bought a vintage guitar once and wondered why the strings kept rusting. I finally figured out that the plastic pickguard was made of cellulose nitrate - the original plastic - and was breaking down and giving of acidic fumes that were causing the corrosion. Plastic just doesn't hold up to UV and time that well. Maybe uPVC is different - but nothing I've seen provides any real evidence of that. As far as the difference between al-clad and aluminium windows, can you comment on the actual method used to hold the glass in place in both types. Does the aluminium window use rubber or plastic to hold the glass in place? Is the timber window different? Or are they both the same? Another question for you: have you looked at the proposed energy efficiency changes in the BCA 2010 draft proposals? If so, will they have any real impact on window requirements in houses? http://www.abcb.gov.au/index.cfm?object ... C5D8E8C957 (part 3.12.2 on external glazing) Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 28Jun 14, 2009 9:01 pm nomad Ed I like the concept here and sorry if im stepping on toes here but i just feel the wording undermines the voter. If I was shown these results I wouldn't consider much of it, voting should be straight forward and to the point without the little emotions or extended answers. Something like Which windows would you choose? I'd prefer single glazed I'd prefer double glazed PVC I'd prefer double glazed aluminum I'd prefer double glazed timber I'm uncertain I'd pay 15% more for double glazing I'd pay 30% more for double glazing Thanks, I note your valid points... I can't say 15% or 30% more as people don't know what the windows cost in a project home... Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 29Jun 14, 2009 9:07 pm me,he&little she This has been a great thread Ed. Learnt a lot and see you have been busy this weekend! (I voted). Noob qtn - can you explain Low-E to me. Our developer will approve aluminium windows from timber if we have Low-E or double glazing. They stated Low-E may be cheaper. Cost will be an overriding factor for us when comparing aluminium with glazing or standard timber. Unfortunately that's the reality. There are lots of threads on this now... but simply put, Low-E (low emissivity... emissivity = emit, so it emits less heat) is a glass which although appears clear has an invisible coating of metal which stops radiant heat. It works well in a double glazed window, less well in single glazed, it doesn't do anything except keep radiant heat out (sun) or in. It is no substitute for double glazing. But it can supplement it. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 30Jun 14, 2009 9:26 pm hiker Ed, If the thesis made it to the university archive it's safe to assume Mr Asif received his PhD, whether we agree he deserved it or not. So I was being nice to him and referring to him as Dr Asif. He may not have been objective, but, by your own rule that receiving money destroys objectivity, neither are you. It seems in this discussion, perhaps I am the most objective as I am being paid by nobody for my opinion and stand to make no money by taking any particular side. I'm simply trying to determine what is best so that I can put that in my house. Hiker, Yes taking money or having a vested interest in any argument destroys objectivity. My position is that I can source any type of construction and sell at any price... I don't care which window, or door, or piece of software, or building, I sell - I have no vested interest in it's structure or construction, nor have I any emotional connection. If a new window was developed tomorrow I would look at developing a line in that. It's not that I think AliClad windows are inferior, I just don't think they are superior - why? Logic tells me that it just doesn't make sense and when I add in the financial interest - well I can't accept his results. Mr Asif or Dr Asif was funded by the business which he found to be at the forefront of technology - is that not a fantastic coincidence? He aimed for a goal and achieved it... is that objective? My objectivity is in bringing the most efficient windows at the best price... be they aluminium (which we have) PVC ( which we have), or thermally broken aluminium (which we have). I don't think timber & aluminium composite represents the best value and performance, that's based on my knowledge. But if people want it, and many do, go ahead. I will certainly have this as a line in future, but I won't be mentioning Dr (?) Asif's thesis when I sell them... hiker When I moved into my current house I found that the clothesline was broken. All the plastic bits had become brittle as a result of UV exposure and had broken apart. The bumper on my old Ford was originally black plastic, but after a while it faded and didn't look so good. I bought a vintage guitar once and wondered why the strings kept rusting. I finally figured out that the plastic pickguard was made of cellulose nitrate - the original plastic - and was breaking down and giving of acidic fumes that were causing the corrosion. Plastic just doesn't hold up to UV and time that well. Maybe uPVC is different - but nothing I've seen provides any real evidence of that. Yes when I was a photographer we used cellulose triacetate film. Things have changed a lot since those days including your Ford. Clothes pegs? I don't know the standard... We used wooden ones when I was a kid and they rotted or split... maybe you're right aluminium clothes pegs would be the go... hiker As far as the difference between al-clad and aluminium windows, can you comment on the actual method used to hold the glass in place in both types. Does the aluminium window use rubber or plastic to hold the glass in place? Is the timber window different? Or are they both the same? All windows* use plastic (*as far as I know - includes silicon), as a dampener of vibration and to provide tension. I haven't read BCA yet, I will and I will respond. Thanks for your challenging thoughts, Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 31Jun 14, 2009 9:49 pm ed @ EcoClassic So how do you find your double glazed windows Eager? Ed Normally by accident in the middle of the night when I'm pi55ed! Only joking...The only double glazed windows we have are the in the 3 minor bedrooms and the study, not sure of the specs but maybe 4/6/4? Being supplied to a volume builder I'm sure they are only cheapies. The company in question is Southern Star BTW. Since we don't have double glazed windows in the master bedroom I can't comment on how quieter it is behind them at night, but when we first moved in we experimented by starting up the lawnmower and letting it run while opening and closing the double glazed window in one of the other rooms, and trying to gauge the difference. It certainly seemed like there was a much greater difference in the level of background noise in that room compared to our old house. Geoff - Decophile. Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 32Jun 14, 2009 10:37 pm hiker Another question for you: have you looked at the proposed energy efficiency changes in the BCA 2010 draft proposals? If so, will they have any real impact on window requirements in houses? http://www.abcb.gov.au/index.cfm?object ... C5D8E8C957 (part 3.12.2 on external glazing) Hi Hiker, I have searched the BCA Draft and can't see anything new - if you know of anything please let me know... The major references to U values is a regurgitation of generic stuff in NATHERS... Ed Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 33Jun 14, 2009 10:42 pm Eager ...but when we first moved in we experimented by starting up the lawnmower and letting it run while opening and closing the double glazed window in one of the other rooms, and trying to gauge the difference. It certainly seemed like there was a much greater difference in the level of background noise in that room compared to our old house. Was the lawnmower inside or outside the house? Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 35Jun 15, 2009 2:46 pm ed @ EcoClassic There are lots of threads on this now... but simply put, Low-E (low emissivity... emissivity = emit, so it emits less heat) Thanks Ed. I did a search on old threads but it was the "simply put" bit that worked for me . Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 36Jun 15, 2009 3:53 pm Ed, You might want to consider that there seem to be two distinct groups when it comes to opinions on double-glazed windows and willingness to pay more for them. The first group - young, first home buyers - are probably far less likely to be able (even if willing) to pay a lot more for double glazing. But there is a second group that I have seen quite a few comments from on this forum - older people who have lived overseas for some period of time, appreciate the benefits of double glazing after having lived with it overseas, usually have more money as they are older, and are often willing (or even determined) to get double glazing (and decent non-conductive frames). With the high level of skilled immigration to Australia, can't you make the pitch to the builders that they are losing this rather significant part of the market to those builders who are flexible enough to offer energy efficiency at a fair price? Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 37Jun 15, 2009 4:19 pm hiker Ed, You might want to consider that there seem to be two distinct groups when it comes to opinions on double-glazed windows and willingness to pay more for them. The first group - young, first home buyers - are probably far less likely to be able (even if willing) to pay a lot more for double glazing. But there is a second group that I have seen quite a few comments from on this forum - older people who have lived overseas for some period of time, appreciate the benefits of double glazing after having lived with it overseas, usually have more money as they are older, and are often willing (or even determined) to get double glazing (and decent non-conductive frames). With the high level of skilled immigration to Australia, can't you make the pitch to the builders that they are losing this rather significant part of the market to those builders who are flexible enough to offer energy efficiency at a fair price? You are right, and I am smack bang in the second group... maybe I will make the pitch to one builder... tomorrow Thanks again Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 38Jun 15, 2009 4:47 pm ed @ EcoClassic Eager ...but when we first moved in we experimented by starting up the lawnmower and letting it run while opening and closing the double glazed window in one of the other rooms, and trying to gauge the difference. It certainly seemed like there was a much greater difference in the level of background noise in that room compared to our old house. Was the lawnmower inside or outside the house? Ed It's amazing how quickly the carpet grows.... Geoff - Decophile. Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 39Jun 15, 2009 5:33 pm Eager ed @ EcoClassic Eager ...but when we first moved in we experimented by starting up the lawnmower and letting it run while opening and closing the double glazed window in one of the other rooms, and trying to gauge the difference. It certainly seemed like there was a much greater difference in the level of background noise in that room compared to our old house. Was the lawnmower inside or outside the house? Ed It's amazing how quickly the carpet grows.... "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price - Vote, Vote, Vote :) 40Jun 17, 2009 9:38 am Thank you everyone for taking the time to make your helpful comments and for voting. I took the information to a major builder yesterday and I expect a favourable outcome for everyone across his whole range. So far, basically the results told me that...
And of those who want double glazing...
37% of people would like aluminium double glazed windows and 26% of people would prefer timber double glazed windows I would like to ask in another poll whether people have actually seen and operated PVC... Thanks again... Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 I don't know them all, the first 2 top of your list are best known. Rylock is a good company, Stegbar is for sale. 4 16156 I’m in a similar position except I’m after sliding 3 stacking doors. I am on a second-story apartment of which the balcony would not adequately fit any bi-fold or… 5 16077 Hi Kristy Around $1.7-1.8m or around $4,600/sqm. if you PM me your email I will send you a break up in a spreadsheet so you can get an understanding of the costs for… 1 9882 |