Browse Forums Windows & Doors 1 Jun 13, 2009 3:12 pm Hi I am trying to gauge the level of interest in PVC double glazed windows, so please vote Also if you would, indicate how much extra you believe you would be willing to pay to have double glazed windows (it won't alter what we charge, just give us an argument for the builder). That is extra over the price you are already paying for single glazed windows. You can vote on both type of windows and price - and you can change your vote. Thanks people - really appreciated. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 2Jun 13, 2009 3:24 pm Im still trying to learn more about PVC vs Aluminium so when I get a chance to research it a bit more Ill put a vote for that, but so far it seems that a lot of people recommend PVC over aluminium when combining it with double glazing. But alumnium seems to rate better on WERS? I would be happy to pay a $5000 extra cost for double glazed windows for a standard house, and a little more for bifolds. Custom European Cabinets - Melbourne Kitchen Specialist PM for business details as website currently being updated! Our Crazy Owner Builder Journey! Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 3Jun 13, 2009 3:30 pm Ed, can I just suggest you pop something in the poll about house size? For example the poll questions are for a 30sq house? May help with things... i.e. the $5k v $10k question would be house size dependant for a lot of us. The questions are difficult to answer without some qualification about the size we're talking. I leave you to fend for yourself, figure things out yourself. Terrence Malick Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 4Jun 13, 2009 4:04 pm joles Ed, can I just suggest you pop something in the poll about house size? For example the poll questions are for a 30sq house? May help with things... i.e. the $5k v $10k question would be house size dependant for a lot of us. The questions are difficult to answer without some qualification about the size we're talking. Done, thanks Jo... "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 5Jun 13, 2009 4:08 pm You have not included an option for timber windows. I know that you are mainly interested in PVC since you sell them, but for those up us that want to upgrade to energy efficient windows, the choice is really whether to go to double-glazed timber or double-glazed PVC - the price and U values are about the same. (whereas double-glazed aluminium windows still have a U value of over 4, and a house with double-glazed aluminium is not going to be nearly as comfortable as a house with double-glazed PVC or timber.) In the US, PVC windows are a cheaper double-glazed option to timber windows - that is their appeal. But here, they are the same price - so what is their advantage? They are lower maintenance, but will they last as long as a well-maintained timber window? I think the only way that PVC windows will become a popular option here is if, as in the US, they become less expensive. For our house, we have been quoted $20,000-$25,000 for timber or PVC double-glazed windows. Would I pay that amount? Absolutely. The energy efficiency, size and location of the windows is one of the biggest factors that determine the "liveability" of the house. Would I buy PVC instead of timber? I don't really see any reason to. Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 6Jun 13, 2009 4:13 pm Bam Im still trying to learn more about PVC vs Aluminium so when I get a chance to research it a bit more Ill put a vote for that, but so far it seems that a lot of people recommend PVC over aluminium when combining it with double glazing. But alumnium seems to rate better on WERS? I would be happy to pay a $5000 extra cost for double glazed windows for a standard house, and a little more for bifolds. Hi Bam, you must be misreading WERS. The numbers confirm that PVC beats aluminium every time. Here's a table I published in another thread... it's not comprehensive but the products are representative... Ed Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Edit - typo - had aluminium instead of PVC... "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 8Jun 13, 2009 4:22 pm Bam So I want a lower u value? Yes, U value is the reciprocal of R value - insulation gets better as R increases (R 2.0 batts beat R 1.5 batts), but the insulation of windows gets better as U value decreases (U value 2.5 is better than U value 3.5). "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 9Jun 13, 2009 4:24 pm Aaah ok, I get it! Lower = better performance In your case, glazing which has a EA/12 generally performs better, and EA/12Ar even more so (not that I know what this refers to, other than better performance ) Sorry for the hijack Ed Custom European Cabinets - Melbourne Kitchen Specialist PM for business details as website currently being updated! Our Crazy Owner Builder Journey! Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 10Jun 13, 2009 4:35 pm Bam Aaah ok, I get it! Lower = better performance In your case, glazing which has a EA/12 generally performs better, and EA/12Ar even more so (not that I know what this refers to, other than better performance ) Sorry for the hijack Ed Yes that's it ... A U value of 3.33 = an R value of... (1 ÷ 3.33 =) 0.3. And vice versa, an R value of 3.00 = a U value of (1 ÷ 3.00 =) 0.33 Hope that makes sense. And those letters EA = Energy Advantage a brand of Low-E glass. Ar = Argon instead of air. If you hover your mouse over these in WERS it tells you the meaning. The numbers represent the glass thickness in mm, followed by the air gap, followed by the glass thickness. This one 4/12/4 means 2 pieces of 4mm glass + 12mm air gap This one 4EA/12Ar/4 means 1 piece of glass 4mm in Low-E, 12mm gap filled with Argon and 1 piece of clear glass 4mm thick. No hijack - it's good clarification, thanks for asking. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 11Jun 13, 2009 4:43 pm hiker You have not included an option for timber windows. I know that you are mainly interested in PVC since you sell them, but for those up us that want to upgrade to energy efficient windows, the choice is really whether to go to double-glazed timber or double-glazed PVC - the price and U values are about the same. (whereas double-glazed aluminium windows still have a U value of over 4, and a house with double-glazed aluminium is not going to be nearly as comfortable as a house with double-glazed PVC or timber.) Hi Hiker If you check the WERS data or my other post you will find that well designed aluminium windows compete well with PVC and timber - and (although the example in my table doesn't show this) thermally broken aluminium achieves similar levels of U value to PVC and timber (our aluminium being U value of 3.5 with clear glass & 2.7 with Low-E). Our thermally broken window will be re-released in about 3-4 months and will achieve U values around timber & PVC. I will slip timber into the poll... thanks hiker In the US, PVC windows are a cheaper double-glazed option to timber windows - that is their appeal. But here, they are the same price - so what is their advantage? They are lower maintenance, but will they last as long as a well-maintained timber window? I think the only way that PVC windows will become a popular option here is if, as in the US, they become less expensive. The window business here is very competitive - except in PVC where prices have some way to go (except our ). You will find most volume builders shy away from timber due to the maintenance issues. PVC was developed in Germany in the 1940s and some of those are still going today. I have no doubt that PVC will be 80% of the Australian market within 3-5 years, just as it is in Europe and the USA. And prices will become more sensible at the same time. hiker Would I pay that amount? Absolutely. The energy efficiency, size and location of the windows is one of the biggest factors that determine the "liveability" of the house. Would I buy PVC instead of timber? I don't really see any reason to. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 13Jun 13, 2009 5:24 pm Ed, I think you're right that PVC could become 80% of the market here within a few years ... IF the government here insists on higher energy efficiency standards. Once the volume demand is there, timber windows won't be able to compete with PVC, because the manufacturing costs of PVC have got to be lower - after all, PVC can be manufactured in any shape or size required but wood, well, always comes as one big long chunk that needs a lot of processing to get it to the right shape for a window. So yes, once the demand is there, PVC will inevitably be the least expensive option and so will come to dominate the market (along with, perhaps, thermally broken aluminium - which all of the aluminium window makers will finally have to offer). But in the meantime, PVC isn't cheap. It's the same price as timber. So, I guess I'll have to stay "real" and go with timber. After all, in ten or fifteen years time, when PVC is all the rage and is a lot cheaper than timber, the timber windows in my house will be noted as a premium feature should I choose to sell, but the PVC windows (that I would have paid a fortune for if I bought them today) will be viewed as just run-of-the-mill, ordinary windows (as is the case in the US when comparing timber and PVC). Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 14Jun 13, 2009 5:39 pm Good topic Ed. One of the reasons we built with M3tricon is because double glazed windows were standard on the 'cold' or bedroom side of the house; other builders quoted large sums to try and be equivalent and we baulked at that. To us, the MAIN advantage of double glazed windows was not thermal insulation but noise suppression. I don't know anything about PVC windows, can you produce a table that shows the noise suppression properties of standard vs aluminium double glazed vs PVC double glazed? It may be more relevent to prospective clients. Geoff - Decophile. Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 15Jun 13, 2009 5:58 pm Ed, Here is a link you may be interested in. A student at Edinburgh University did a PhD thesis on windows! And he proves us both wrong... the best window, according to his study, is an aluminium clad timber window (also common in the US - but way expensive here). The link: http://researchrepository.napier.ac.uk/2505/ He also did a survey on window lifespan and came up with 47 years for aluminium clad timber, 44 years for aluminium, 40 years for timber and 24 years for uPVC (see pages 146 and 160). Although different people have come up with different numbers, most consider PVC to have the shortest lifespan. Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 16Jun 13, 2009 11:43 pm hiker Ed, Here is a link you may be interested in. A student at Edinburgh University did a PhD thesis on windows! And he proves us both wrong... the best window, according to his study, is an aluminium clad timber window (also common in the US - but way expensive here). The link: http://researchrepository.napier.ac.uk/2505/ He also did a survey on window lifespan and came up with 47 years for aluminium clad timber, 44 years for aluminium, 40 years for timber and 24 years for uPVC (see pages 146 and 160). Although different people have come up with different numbers, most consider PVC to have the shortest lifespan. I will read this, but forgive my cynicism, how on earth can aluminium be worse than aluminium clad timber??? I guess if I read I may find out, or I may find why this research paper is titled Life cycle assessment of aluminium-clad timber windows and how these coincidentally became the hero of the paper... who paid for the research? Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 17Jun 14, 2009 12:04 am Well well... well done Mr. (sorry, Doctor) Asif Muhammad for your wonderful work... Extract from DX2251 82 Awarding Body : Napier Thesis By : ASIF Muhammad Thesis Title : LIFE CYCLE ASSESSMENT OF ALUMINIUM - CLAD TIMBER WINDOWS THE BRITISH LIBRARY DOCUMENT SUPPLY CENTRE Quote: ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS First of all I am thankful to God, Allah, who provided me with the strength, knowledge, and determination to achieve this goal. I would like to thank my supervisory team,... I would also extend my gratitude towards Willie Davidson and Cohn Collins of Nor-Dan (UK) and rest of team members in Norway, for their financial support in the execution of this project. Thanks are also reserved for Doris Regener, Gobmer and Kathleen from Otto-Von-Guerecke University Germany, life and John in Norway, for their help in experimental work. It's surprising how a little bit of funding can return such a good result for your product and put down the most popular product... Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 18Jun 14, 2009 12:34 am Ed, i am confused is this R rating same as R rating for wall ? i mean, we try to make the wall R rating to be high, i.e 2, 2.5 ? but for windows, we make smaller R rating, in order to increase U value ? sorry for the noobness. ed @ EcoClassic Bam Aaah ok, I get it! Lower = better performance In your case, glazing which has a EA/12 generally performs better, and EA/12Ar even more so (not that I know what this refers to, other than better performance ) Sorry for the hijack Ed Yes that's it ... A U value of 3.33 = an R value of... (1 ÷ 3.33 =) 0.3. And vice versa, an R value of 3.00 = a U value of (1 ÷ 3.00 =) 0.33 Hope that makes sense. And those letters EA = Energy Advantage a brand of Low-E glass. Ar = Argon instead of air. If you hover your mouse over these in WERS it tells you the meaning. The numbers represent the glass thickness in mm, followed by the air gap, followed by the glass thickness. This one 4/12/4 means 2 pieces of 4mm glass + 12mm air gap This one 4EA/12Ar/4 means 1 piece of glass 4mm in Low-E, 12mm gap filled with Argon and 1 piece of clear glass 4mm thick. No hijack - it's good clarification, thanks for asking. Ed Final stage Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 19Jun 14, 2009 12:41 am d3p Ed, i am confused is this R rating same as R rating for wall ? i mean, we try to make the wall R rating to be high, i.e 2, 2.5 ? but for windows, we make smaller R rating, in order to increase U value ? sorry for the noobness. ed @ EcoClassic Bam Aaah ok, I get it! Lower = better performance In your case, glazing which has a EA/12 generally performs better, and EA/12Ar even more so (not that I know what this refers to, other than better performance ) Sorry for the hijack Ed Yes that's it ... A U value of 3.33 = an R value of... (1 ÷ 3.33 =) 0.3. And vice versa, an R value of 3.00 = a U value of (1 ÷ 3.00 =) 0.33 Hope that makes sense. And those letters EA = Energy Advantage a brand of Low-E glass. Ar = Argon instead of air. If you hover your mouse over these in WERS it tells you the meaning. The numbers represent the glass thickness in mm, followed by the air gap, followed by the glass thickness. This one 4/12/4 means 2 pieces of 4mm glass + 12mm air gap This one 4EA/12Ar/4 means 1 piece of glass 4mm in Low-E, 12mm gap filled with Argon and 1 piece of clear glass 4mm thick. No hijack - it's good clarification, thanks for asking. Ed R value and U value measure opposites. R measures insulation or how well something stops heat, whereas U measures conduction or how well something passes heat. So the higher the R value, the better the heat stopping power. But the higher the U value the better the heat passing power. Wall insulation is measured in R value and windows is measured in U value. The maths is R = 1/U... and U = 1/R. Stupid isn't it... It means a lower U value gives you a higher R value... which means better insulation. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Double Glazed Windows - Type and Price 20Jun 14, 2009 11:04 am Eager Good topic Ed. One of the reasons we built with M3tricon is because double glazed windows were standard on the 'cold' or bedroom side of the house; other builders quoted large sums to try and be equivalent and we baulked at that. To us, the MAIN advantage of double glazed windows was not thermal insulation but noise suppression. I don't know anything about PVC windows, can you produce a table that shows the noise suppression properties of standard vs aluminium double glazed vs PVC double glazed? It may be more relevent to prospective clients. Hi Eager, Yes the acoustic properties of windows... Our standard windows rate STC (Sound Transmission Class) 34.5 Standard single glazed windows rate STC 20 every 3dB is a doubling or halving of sound level... Brick venner walls are STC 39 Hollow core doors STC 15 So how do you find your double glazed windows Eager? Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 I don't know them all, the first 2 top of your list are best known. Rylock is a good company, Stegbar is for sale. 4 12821 I’m in a similar position except I’m after sliding 3 stacking doors. I am on a second-story apartment of which the balcony would not adequately fit any bi-fold or… 5 12171 Hi Kristy Around $1.7-1.8m or around $4,600/sqm. if you PM me your email I will send you a break up in a spreadsheet so you can get an understanding of the costs for… 1 738 |