Browse Forums Building A New House 1 Feb 08, 2009 12:13 am Hi I have seen a floor plan from another building company that I like, Is there a percentage I have to change so it is not copywrite, How much do I have to change Re: Copywrite for floorplans 2Feb 08, 2009 12:16 am Short Answer: NO
Long Answer: NO Copyright infringement is copyright infringement. The case between Barrett Property Group and M3tricon proves that even with substantial changes copyright infringement can and will be enforced. Basically, if an idea is noteworthy enough to bother copying, then it is potentially an infringement. Re: Copywrite for floorplans 3Feb 08, 2009 7:18 am HomeReview Short Answer: NO Long Answer: NO Copyright infringement is copyright infringement. The case between Barrett Property Group and M3tricon proves that even with substantial changes copyright infringement can and will be enforced. Basically, if an idea is noteworthy enough to bother copying, then it is potentially an infringement. Sorry you are wrong HomeReview - the question is - what percentage to change to avoid copyright problems and that is a specific amount - if you change exactly 100% you won't have any problems. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Copywrite for floorplans 4Feb 08, 2009 7:27 am There is really only one way to get around it...
Go and see a building designer/draftsman... Don't take the plans, but rather give the draftsman your ideas on how you would like the house laid out, what rooms you would like and the feel of the home you want... He'll work with you, and more than likely come up with something similar, but probably better because he's adding his own experiences... That's what we've done... We started with a great plan, and made it better! Electrical Engineer... Don't hold that against me... And keen owner builder... Mainly the building part!! Re: Copywrite for floorplans 5Feb 08, 2009 9:31 am HomeReview Short Answer: NO Long Answer: NO Copyright infringement is copyright infringement. The case between Barrett Property Group and M3tricon proves that even with substantial changes copyright infringement can and will be enforced. Basically, if an idea is noteworthy enough to bother copying, then it is potentially an infringement. I hardly think vivicia is in the league of a multi-national building company about to advertise, build and sell for profit. You know what, every one has an element or two from a design somewhere - the question is, how much percentage do you change to make it yours. There is no percentage, just enough for the original designer to say - hey, that's mine. and then prove it in court. Do what you want vivicia, just don't copy another plan verbatim, no builder will allow you to do that anyways, so play it safe and draft your home "loosely based" on the plan you like, and don't stress beyond that. Annie A thankful person is a happy person. [/color]My hobby design blog: http://aviewondesign.blogspot.com/ Re: Copywrite for floorplans 6Feb 08, 2009 9:42 am Annietom,
You've said in a few threads basically not to worry about copyright. Really, really irresponsible. Doesn't matter whether it's an individual, a multi national or anything in between, if copyright is infringed, they can come after the infringer. Whether they do or nor is another matter. But the fact is they are entitiled to. But telling people not too worry too much is just plain ridiculous. If they do come after an individual, they will financially destroy them. If you feel comforable teling people not to worry about that...... ..... I'm sorry I just don't undertsand why you do it. Copyright infringement IS something to worry about. ALWAYS. Jo I leave you to fend for yourself, figure things out yourself. Terrence Malick Re: Copywrite for floorplans 7Feb 08, 2009 10:06 am Here's an interesting question then... If a national builder is unwilling to make internal and external changes to suit you and your needs?
Things like changing the garage orientation, mirroring the left half of the home internals, but keeping the right half... And adding a verandah? Electrical Engineer... Don't hold that against me... And keen owner builder... Mainly the building part!! Re: Copywrite for floorplans 8Feb 08, 2009 10:11 am chuth77 Here's an interesting question then... If a national builder is unwilling to make internal and external changes to suit you and your needs? Things like changing the garage orientation, mirroring the left half of the home internals, but keeping the right half... And adding a verandah? I think if you did it the way you said earlier in the thread you'd be pretty safe cluth77. But to completely copy (i.e. exact layout and dimensions) and then do what you suggested you'd be in potential bother maybe. It's just the idea that copyright is nothing to worry about that I find strange. I'm certainly no expert on copyright, but I think we are all far better to err on the side of caution when the potential consequences are so dire. I leave you to fend for yourself, figure things out yourself. Terrence Malick Re: Copywrite for floorplans 9Feb 08, 2009 10:24 am joles chuth77 Here's an interesting question then... If a national builder is unwilling to make internal and external changes to suit you and your needs? Things like changing the garage orientation, mirroring the left half of the home internals, but keeping the right half... And adding a verandah? I think if you did it the way you said earlier in the thread you'd be pretty safe cluth77. But to completely copy (i.e. exact layout and dimensions) and then do what you suggested you'd be in potential bother maybe. It's just the idea that copyright is nothing to worry about that I find strange. I'm certainly no expert on copyright, but I think we are all far better to err on the side of caution when the potential consequences are so dire. Clearly, you are no expert in copyright - I said the same thing. I'm entitled to my opinion, it's a forum, not Legal Aid. I will always stick to my opinion, Joles, that's my prerogative.\ My opinion stands, always will, despite what other forumers say. The reader of the forum can make their own decision, that's their prerogative. I don't need forumers to assess my content unless it is offensive. Thank you! A thankful person is a happy person. [/color]My hobby design blog: http://aviewondesign.blogspot.com/ Re: Copywrite for floorplans 10Feb 08, 2009 10:31 am I'm also going by the responses you have given on this topic in other threads. The gist of your advice has basically been if you're an individual you don't have too much to worry about. And that is utter rubbish and should be called as such.
And yes, as this is a public fourm, it is also my perogative to state when I believe the advice given has been BAD and IRRESPONSIBLE. And when it is both of those things, it should be assessed by other members of the forum.... that's the purpose of the forum. It astounds me the amount of people on here that get up in arms about how they're entitled to their opinion and they can post what they want, but they only do that when someone else has also posted an opninon that disagrees with theirs. Hilarious. Of course we're all entilted to our opinions. Not only you. Maybe you shouldn't give advice that may potentially land other forumers in legal trouble. Thank you! I leave you to fend for yourself, figure things out yourself. Terrence Malick Re: Copywrite for floorplans 11Feb 08, 2009 11:14 am My 2 cents, and stating the obvious..
How a home, bedroom, bathroom whatever is designed.. there is a finite number of ways it can be.. I mean look at the main bedroom and ensuite of all these building companies floor plans.. they're all essentially the same.. how different can you really design something like that? I mean.. it's a bedroom, it's square or rectangular, has a built in robe... etc.. why isn't everyone claiming copyright infringement? So I have to side with Annietom, go to an architect and get them to draw something up.. and provided you're not working off of someone else's drawing, or "reverse engineering" so to speak, then you can't be accused of copyright infringement I would guess.. again how many variations to a floor plan can possible exist? You would have to be copying something really unique and that nobody else has to be accused of infringing copyright in my mind.. Anyway.. there you go Re: Copywrite for floorplans 12Feb 08, 2009 11:25 am joles I'm also going by the responses you have given on this topic in other threads. The gist of your advice has basically been if you're an individual you don't have too much to worry about. And that is utter rubbish and should be called as such. And yes, as this is a public fourm, it is also my perogative to state when I believe the advice given has been BAD and IRRESPONSIBLE. And when it is both of those things, it should be assessed by other members of the forum.... that's the purpose of the forum. It astounds me the amount of people on here that get up in arms about how they're entitled to their opinion and they can post what they want, but they only do that when someone else has also posted an opninon that disagrees with theirs. Hilarious. Of course we're all entilted to our opinions. Not only you. Maybe you shouldn't give advice that may potentially land other forumers in legal trouble. Thank you! I'm not giving advice, I'm giving an opinion! My advice costs $$$ (kidding) But you are right about my position on copyright, and I certainly don't want anyone to get sued because of my opinion, so I've said my piece on copyright, I shall refrain from commenting on it in this forum again, I'll let the legal experts like you give the advice on a vaguely legislated, but highly non-descript area of law - clearly, you know more than me and any opinion I give that may be in your opinion "irresponsible" and I will land other forumers in trouble!!! But I thought a forum was where people gave different opinions, I thought that was what made it interesting... so sorry, I'll just say what you say from now on Joles. (kidding) A thankful person is a happy person. [/color]My hobby design blog: http://aviewondesign.blogspot.com/ Re: Copywrite for floorplans 13Feb 08, 2009 11:51 am Without commenting on any of the above, here is some basic information about copyright in Australia, found at http://www.copyright.org.au/information ... basics.htm
Unfortunately the information on that site is copyrighted so I will not quote what I wanted to on this site but will suggest that anyone interested pay particular attention to the headings: Infringement of copyright: ...Other ways in which copyright can be infringed...this can include encouraging or sanctioning someone else’s infringement. How many changes to something do I need to make to avoid infringing copyright?...changing any amount will not necessarily avoid infringement. The infringement revolves around not what has been changed but what remains the same, even if this is a very small part of the original item, if it is considered to be a distinctive or important feature then it does not matter how small this detail is. I have tried very hard here to avoid using the original information while still conveying the gist, but even with as much paraphrasing as possible it is still a fine line...hopefully this won't be considered a breach. As a designer copyright is a very serious issue for me, because it is all I have as a result of my work, and I normally like to get paid for my work rather than handing it over for free to someone else to use. I have access to and have used the services of a copyright lawyer when someone took some images I had created on a download on my website and used them on their own website. Before siccing my lawyer onto him I tracked him down (ASICS) and personally phoned him asking him to justify the use of or else remove the material. He first claimed to have no knowledge of my material, then when I explained to him how I recognized that the work was mine he blustered something about only having to change my work by 10% or more for me to have no case...when I again stated this was not true he told me to address all further discussion to his solicitor. Which we did - and he subsequently removed the material from his website; had he not I would have taken him to court and in all likelihood have won. I run a small business and this guy runs a slightly larger small business. He stole from me and then claimed that what he had stolen had been changed enough to not be mine anymore - I disagreed with him but he expressed the opinion that my allegations were of little importance and claimed to be too busy making money to concern himself with this issue and that I too should get on with running my business. The whole time I would have been much more appeasable if he has at least considered the concept of discussing acknowledgment of my work...I might even have let him keep the images if he added an "all images courtesy of" link... None of these personal details are really relevant to the topic being discussed except to underline the fact that if you are even borrowing from someone's concept you can be putting yourself in a position of copyright infringement; and on top of that there is the ethical issue of taking information that someone else has spent time and effort creating and not providing them with any form of remuneration or acknowledgment. I also agree that there are limitations to the number of possible variations in a specific context - try designing a chair that is really "new" sometime. A writer whose name I can not currently remember once said "all authors are plagiarists"...the same can be said about designers; we stand on the shoulders of our ancestors, and every year it gets harder to come up with something new - in fact it is mostly advances in manufacturing technology/materials that allow new forms and methods to be created. Copyright can be a very fine line and is a very divisive topic (which is what fine lines are by definition I suppose) about which one is best advised to be as cautious as possible. Cheers, Earl Re: Copywrite for floorplans 14Feb 08, 2009 11:54 am thank you all but I'm still a little puzzeled, just say if I added things such as walk in robes and a bulters pantry and changed the locations of some rooms would it still be copywrite, measurments would be slightly bigger. Re: Copywrite for floorplans 15Feb 08, 2009 12:04 pm Viv what Ive done after causing an uproar about this stuff a month or so back, is drew out a rough plan of how i wanted my floor plan to be, which started out very similar to a volume builders
this way even the starting plan is not a copy, its "similar" but not a copy because everything will have been designed from scratch by your chosen draftsmen and be original to him/her we then kept modifying the plan to our liking and we are now apart from the general layout very very different, whilst still having something similar and in my mind, and confirmed by master builders, safe from being prosecuted for copyright infringement i have paid our volulme builder for soiltests and even offered to buy the plan so for us we need to be very very cautious about copying because it would be easy for them to chase us hope that helps, its a very very grey area, just dont copy anything other than the idea's of the plan and you should be safe Blog - http://snakedr.blogspot.com/ Build Thread - viewtopic.php?f=31&t=12084&p=307406#p307406 Status - PCI 15/10. Things nearly done. Re: Copywrite for floorplans 16Feb 08, 2009 12:11 pm You're missing the point, the ideas of a plan are also copyright. Have a look at the Barrett Property Group vs M3tricon case. Both plans were nothing like each other in layout or dimensions, but because they both had the same idea in the living area it was a copyright infringement. If it's noteworthy enough to copy then it's likely an infringement. Re: Copywrite for floorplans 17Feb 08, 2009 12:23 pm Annietom But I thought a forum was where people gave different opinions, I thought that was what made it interesting... so sorry, I'll just say what you say from now on Joles. (kidding) Re-read the thread. I'm not the one that got upset because someone disagreed with me. That was you. So it would seem we need to agree with you to avoid a drama because you can't handle different opinions. M3tricon, Marshall Baker and the other companies involved all did what is being suggested. They took an idea, changed it and incorporated it into their own designs. PD (Barrett Property Group) took them on over copyright and PD won. Whether it is right or wrong is beside the point, that is the fact. Precedent has been set in this area. Because of that, companies will be more inclined to go after individuals and other companies that they believe have infringed copyright of their designs. It will be easier to prove because there is now a precedent. What I am saying is potentially copyright infringement is not just my opinion, it is a legal fact. If anyone thinks that it's still a good idea to risk it, go ahead. My only point through all of this has been that you will potentially be infringing copyright and there is no guarantee that they won't go after an individual. Again to believe that there is a degree of protection offered because they won't be bothered going after an individual (as has been suggested by others) is ludicrous. Edit: you beat me to it HomeReview. I leave you to fend for yourself, figure things out yourself. Terrence Malick Re: Copywrite for floorplans 18Feb 08, 2009 12:29 pm HomeReview You're missing the point, the ideas of a plan are also copyright. Have a look at the Barrett Property Group vs M3tricon case. Both plans were nothing like each other in layout or dimensions, but because they both had the same idea in the living area it was a copyright infringement. If it's noteworthy enough to copy then it's likely an infringement. if the idea was unique to that builder this is true, but otherwise surely it would have to be near impossible to prove something like that and if its one builder pursuing another builder offering something similar as a standard plan as opposed to a one off custom designed house i think the reaction would also be different Blog - http://snakedr.blogspot.com/ Build Thread - viewtopic.php?f=31&t=12084&p=307406#p307406 Status - PCI 15/10. Things nearly done. Re: Copywrite for floorplans 19Feb 08, 2009 1:47 pm HomeReview You're missing the point, the ideas of a plan are also copyright. Have a look at the Barrett Property Group vs M3tricon case. Both plans were nothing like each other in layout or dimensions, but because they both had the same idea in the living area it was a copyright infringement. If it's noteworthy enough to copy then it's likely an infringement. No, coincidental ideas are fine, in fact identical designs are fine. Provided you come up with the idea or plan COMPLETELY independently of the original. Read Justice Finkelsteins summing up in the case Henley Arch v Clarendon... I gave a link somehwere else in the forum. Just don't copy, don't say you will copy, then design what you want... after all how can you know that what you design is not similar to, or identical to someone else's ddesign somewhere in Australia? But if you leave a trail - beware. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Copywrite for floorplans 20Feb 08, 2009 2:41 pm Those links again...
http://www.deliades.com.au/files/Henley ... rendon.pdf http://www.dilanchian.com.au/index2.php ... f=1&id=383 "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 |