Browse Forums Building A New House 1 Jan 14, 2009 3:03 pm Hi,
I've got a block of land, and I'm in the process of finalising a house/land package. I've been visiting display houses for a while, and look through over 100 designs and talked to numerous builders ~ However, the builders I've been through are mainly the top one or the BIG ones such as Henley, Porter Davis, BurBank, Dennis Family, Simonds Homes, AV Jennings, National Builders Group, M*tricon etc ... They seem to give out lots of "luxury" upgrades like stone bench stop, evaporative coolers, etc ... and the price per SQ is pretty competitive! However, I've heard quite a lots of horrible stories about those BIG or VOLUME builders ~ so I'm getting a bit confused about whether I should go for those BIG builders or should I better off go for the smaller / unknown builders ~ In particular, M*tricon actually give 25 years Structural Warranty which seems to be of good value ... or maybe not??? Could anyone give me some recommendations or maybe some links as to where I could find more information? I know this is kind of a general and open question, but I just want to get some feedbacks about what do most people think from your pass experience? This is my first home and could be my last one, and I am thinking of building a 25sq ~ 30sq single storey house ~ got a pre-approval from the bank already, except couldn't decide which builder to put my signature on ~ Any comments will be highly appreciated! Wallace Re: BIG Builders vs Small Builders? 2Jan 14, 2009 3:10 pm My builder has 50 year structural guarantee.. but they use steel frame so not sure if that is the reason. Re: BIG Builders vs Small Builders? 3Jan 14, 2009 3:18 pm I liked the design of S@ntorini 29 from M3tricon M1 series, and the sales consultant seems to be very helpful in providing me information. But my colleagues told me 3 of his neighbours complaint about M3tricon and would never build a house from them again! So I have no idea whether I should trust a BIG builder or a smaller one now ... hard decision! Re: BIG Builders vs Small Builders? 4Jan 14, 2009 3:23 pm You will probably hear complaints about all large builders.. as people are always louder when there is a problem..
you will probably hear the most complaints about m3tricon because they are the largest builder.. but as far as ratio's go they are probably no worse than any other large builder.. but I haven't dealt with them but have seen both positive and negative reviews of that particular builder on this forum. Re: BIG Builders vs Small Builders? 5Jan 14, 2009 3:30 pm Volume builders could order bricks and all materials in bulk, so does it usually mean it'll be cheaper to build with those BIG builders compared to the smaller one?
At the same time, the smaller builder owns the business so will they give you extra at no cost, or will not try to charge you a fortune for things it should be there but not written in the contract in the first place? For a 25sq to 30sq house, will a big builder usually be cheaper? or more expensive no matter what size? Re: BIG Builders vs Small Builders? 6Jan 14, 2009 3:36 pm For what its worth, I wouldn't build with a big builder for the first time based on our experience. We were going to build with a big builder, and walked away at contract stage simply because they were too big and their customer service was practically non-existant. Building is such a massive commitment and stress and we are much happier going with a smaller builder who knows our name and wont charge an arm an a leg to sway from a plan etc etc. Just little things like we couldn't decide on a colour splashback so our builder will wait until we have finished our kitchen then we can go in and paint the wall a few different colours to decide. It just makes a difference for our sanity!
BUT, having said that, if you like a design with a volume builder, you will get some pretty good packages and it will probably be cheaper in the end going with a volume builder so there are positives for both arguements I guess (bigger builder = better discounts). ICK So glad the building is over, never again. Loooove our house, but still not quite sure it was worth all of the stress they put us through! Re: BIG Builders vs Small Builders? 7Jan 14, 2009 3:37 pm My findings are big volume builders are always cheaper than custom small builders..
It is just like going to Safeway or IGA... Safeway are bigger and nearly always cheaper because they have a greater buying power than the small independant IGA. Re: BIG Builders vs Small Builders? 8Jan 14, 2009 3:58 pm Well put wakeboardandy, I like the Safeway/IGA analogy.
IMO they are able to buy some good stuff in bulk and give good discounts (or can include in packages, free caesarstone etc) but if you try to sway away from what they can get they charge like a wounded bull. When we were getting quotes from a big builder we liked 40mm caesarstone, and 20mm caesarstone came free, but to upgrade to 40mm we would've paid huge $$'s because they'd bought all the 20mm in bulk (hope that makes sense). Nice comparison (unfortunately this doesn't always happen) but our smaller builder had an upgraded front door handle at $256 in our contract, we saw the same one in Bunnings for $160 and mentioned it and they said, "really? don't stress about it we'll match the price, no questions asked". Other examples, we have a large family room coming out onto the alfresco and on the plan there was a 3 stacker door, we were going through the plan with them and they said, it would look better with a 4 stacker, we'll chuck that in no charge. Also, we are supplying all plumbing and they are installing it for free - including a spa we added to our plan! But the clincher, we were worried about a bulkhead running down the side of the house, so they moved the wall out another 300 or so mm's - we were worried about our budget blowing out so they came back and said we'll waive the extra price for the half a square or whatever it was because the house will look better for it. Not saying this will happen with all small builders, but I just know what responses I would've got had I gone to a S..... or a M..... or a P... D.... with similar issues! - Ian Re: BIG Builders vs Small Builders? 9Jan 14, 2009 4:03 pm ICK Well put wakeboardandy, I like the Safeway/IGA analogy. IMO they are able to buy some good stuff in bulk and give good discounts (or can include in packages, free caesarstone etc) but if you try to sway away from what they can get they charge like a wounded bull. When we were getting quotes from a big builder we liked 40mm caesarstone, and 20mm caesarstone came free, but to upgrade to 40mm we would've paid huge $$'s because they'd bought all the 20mm in bulk (hope that makes sense). Nice comparison (unfortunately this doesn't always happen) but our smaller builder had an upgraded front door handle at $256 in our contract, we saw the same one in Bunnings for $160 and mentioned it and they said, "really? don't stress about it we'll match the price, no questions asked". Other examples, we have a large family room coming out onto the alfresco and on the plan there was a 3 stacker door, we were going through the plan with them and they said, it would look better with a 4 stacker, we'll chuck that in no charge. Also, we are supplying all plumbing and they are installing it for free - including a spa we added to our plan! But the clincher, we were worried about a bulkhead running down the side of the house, so they moved the wall out another 300 or so mm's - we were worried about our budget blowing out so they came back and said we'll waive the extra price for the half a square or whatever it was because the house will look better for it. Not saying this will happen with all small builders, but I just know what responses I would've got had I gone to a S..... or a M..... or a P... D.... with similar issues! - Ian The builder was your dad - right... BTW you can't get 40mm caesarstone - it just get double thickness along the edge. Ed Re: BIG Builders vs Small Builders? 10Jan 14, 2009 4:13 pm What are the likelihoods for smaller vs bigger builders to wash their hands on problems as they arise?
My instinct (but I could be wrong) tells me that the bigger builders would tend to fix problems properly. They would have company policies and procedures in place to ensure certain quality before handover. Also, they build the same designs over and over, that tends to reduce risks of things going wrong. But on the other hand, they will be slow and inflexible. Your customer service will highly dependent on the employee who you dealt with. Also, with the current economic condition, what are the chances for smaller or family owned builders to go under?? I have no idea. I just hate to see my builder go broke right in the middle of the build. Anyone affected by Beechwood? I made conscious decision to go with my current builder because of these. I don't know if they are really valid, but that gives me some peace of mind. Building Clarendon Brighton - Done and moved in Sept 2009 Re: BIG Builders vs Small Builders? 11Jan 14, 2009 4:24 pm eho My instinct (but I could be wrong) tells me that the bigger builders would tend to fix problems properly. Judging from some comments on the forum. This might not be true Having said this, we went with a boutique builder (50 houses per year) partly on the basis that a few negative commnets would have a greater impact on their sales than a volume one. The quality is good but unfortunately this hasn't spared us hassles. One truism is that all builders make mistakes but it how they fix them up is the issue. I think build quality is as individual as the site manager who keeps an eye on things and manages his trades well. Choose the person, not the company. Re: BIG Builders vs Small Builders? 12Jan 14, 2009 4:49 pm Personally, I wouldn't dare touch a volume or project home builder... My Dad has worked as a carpenter in the project home sector since well before I was born and perhaps his stories of the trade have left me a little jaded.
Project, or volume home builders would love nothing more than for you to believe that their discount pricing is directly related to their buying power but that simple isn't the full story. Take McDonalds for example- the food is cheap because they 1) Buy in bulk, and 2) Pay peanuts! It's the same philosophy with your volume builder. Does this mean that every time someone builds a project home they are getting a bad deal? No. But just like any trip to McDonalds, the variation in service level is dramatic! If you've expectations of walking into a house where ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING is spot on then don't build with a volume builder. If you're on a budget and want lots of space then build with whoever is offering the best deal. Sorry to be anal, but for me if it's not spot on, it needs to be done again (this does make renovating a 50yr old house somewhat problematic!!) Re: BIG Builders vs Small Builders? 13Jan 14, 2009 5:03 pm IkonInteriors If you've expectations of walking into a house where ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING is spot on then don't build with a volume builder. I If you want an quality and accurate build then it is worth your while understanding what good workmanship and care looks like. Spend a little time reading about the process and visit partially constructed sites to get a feel for the range of possibilities. Re: BIG Builders vs Small Builders? 14Jan 14, 2009 5:45 pm Last time we built with a boutique builder. We had personal references from people who had built with him and were very happy with the quality of their homes. We also were invited to look through a couple of homes that he was currently building before we signed our contract. We built a very plain house. The price difference meant we certainly couldn't afford anything fancy. The builder had specific tradies he wanted to use. He was keen to provide a quality build. It was a time of massive building when getting trades was tough and build times were long ( by time standards for then) Our build costs us an extra 5th again the cost of a very similar house built by a volume builder. BUT Our house was solidly built and we were in far quicker than those around us building similar sized and type of houses with volume builders. We lived there for almost 19 years and the house was very much structurely sound still when we sold.
This time we've gone for a volume builder. We are 20 years older and hopefully slightly wiser. We've moved to a completely different locality. We knew what we wanted to build. BUT we didn't have any building contacts to rely on or any local boutique builder knowledge and didn't feel confident enough to owner build. However having built before we knew we could request certain things and should be able to get them even with a volume builder. This time we went for the biggest house size we could afford and that fitted our needs. We wanted to look at capitalizing on the block costs and the area. The house is actually similar to our last house in many ways but with a few additional room areas and slightly larger scale. Because again we are at the sharp end of our budget we've compromised on a few things but not much. We've decided we'll forgo the fancy carpets etc for a while in order to put in slightly up spec items in some parts of the home. Not the top spec things, they were out of our budget reach but enough to make the house worth it's value if we did have to sell. We want to finish the house off as we can afford to do so. Hopefully with good quality items rather than the "cheapest' range. (except where it won't make a difference) Re: BIG Builders vs Small Builders? 15Jan 14, 2009 7:51 pm If you want to start comparing builders you need to start looking at what goes into making thier houses. It helps to know about the different material they use and the impact that is has in the final appearence of your house.
IMHO big builders are very good and running businesses and not always building the best house. While as small builders are not as good as running business therefore focus more on building houses. Thats why they are small right?? well i am sure this can be debated further. If I was to start looking at a builder I would want to know about what type of timber, windows, etc they use in there house. You will usually find that larger builders tend you use cheaper material for frames like F5 while higher quality builder will use MPG10 for example. Also studs are 600mm appart for some builders while others go 450mm. Also they way they build there frame will be slightly different too now thats for another day. While the above points dont mean much to many people if you ask the questions I am sure it will paint a picture on how the different builders work. And parpahs this could act as a guidence on what they do behind closed doors so to speak. ( or under the plaster for this example). Anway some thing to consider to me comparing small builders and large builders is like comparing apples with organses. Before you decide you need to decide what type of house do you want and what are you prepared to pay for it. Re: BIG Builders vs Small Builders? 16Jan 14, 2009 7:53 pm We are building with a smaller builder and so far everything is going really well. We did not have to decide the internals at pre-start such as tiles, kitchen cabinets etc until about when the roof carpentry started, all the way along it has been very much a case of "when we need to know these details we will ask you ...". This took a lot of the stress out of the pre-start meeting for us. They have also been happy to take things out of the contract (eg skirtings) after we have signed the contract, and we have been credited back the full amount. We have also changed the front retaining wall from limestone to a render brick after we signed off, and again no issue and a credit back.
Other than the great flexibility, the thing that has made the building process work so well from our perspective has been the communication and responsiveness from our site supervisor. We can send him text messages and he responds within a few hours or phones us back, he sends us texts to tell us when the next trades are expected to be on site, and if they will not be there when he has said, the reason why (eg rain delays). I am not sure whether this is indicative of going with a smaller builder where supervisors are looking after much fewer jobs than the larger volume builders so, or we just got lucky with our supervisor. Re: BIG Builders vs Small Builders? 17Jan 14, 2009 8:22 pm EcoClassic The builder was your dad - right... BTW you can't get 40mm caesarstone - it just get double thickness along the edge. Ed If it was my old man we'd be in trouble because I don't think he'd know which way to hold a hammer! But yeah, you got us on a technicality with the 40mm!! Ed: 1, Ian: 0 Re: BIG Builders vs Small Builders? 18Jan 14, 2009 10:42 pm Becster We are building with a smaller builder and so far everything is going really well. I had a colleague with a similar experience like yours. His house was built by a company of three (now five) people. They did the design, selections co-ordinating, project management and site management as a closely knit team. Our experience has been the complete opposite. Although the build quality is good, the communication processes with our building company has been a headache. It is true about too many cooks spoiling the broth. The more people involved in separate tasks, the greater the chance of miscommunication and mistakes being made. Re: BIG Builders vs Small Builders? 19Jan 15, 2009 7:39 am We started off with one of the volume builders. We payed a $1000 deposit and were given a full build price inc site cost. This was the worst case scenario price. Took about 4 months from initial deposit to get to HIA contaract stage. When we got the HIA contract the final price was $14000 more then the worst case scenario price.
Our new small custom bulder quoted a price at initial contract stage and has stuck to it. It has taken them only 2 months to go from initial deposit to already having a building permit! Re: BIG Builders vs Small Builders? 20Jan 15, 2009 9:16 am We are building with a boutique builder that sits between the large volume builders and the small builders. Their pricing is around the same as the volume builder, but the quality of their work and the materials is closer to the small builders (MP10 frames).
Where things suffer a bit at times is with communication, but this seems to be an issue with most builders. We were a little hesitant going with the volume builders due to their overall size and felt more confident going with a builder that limits its site starts and retains the same tradies. As many have said, the build is influenced by how good your SS is and the trades they subcontract to. So far so good for us. FD2 www.thebedbug.com.au Children's Licenced and Treehouse Manchester for all of those new rooms! Fringe Dwellers - Building Urbanedge Homes Larne 002 www.devohosting.com.au/fringedwellers Hi all, We are looking to build a new two storey house in western Sydney. Can anyone recommend a smallish builder to go with? We are trying to stay away from the big… 0 12149 consider putting in wall WC instead of robe in the same bedroom, then it might be doable to hook up to the existing piping. 4 6633 |