Builder refusing complete handover

Pedro4137 · Aug 14, 2024 6:00 pm

How does have partial possession?

ownerinproblem · Aug 14, 2024 7:31 pm

Pedro4137

How does have partial possession?

I Don’t have front door digital keys, only manual key which is hard to use
I don’t have OC and other documents
I don’t have second garage remote

I have all other manual keys

ownerinproblem · Sep 03, 2024 8:44 pm

Can a builder legally keep the house keys?

I gave him all stage payments, the variation he brought was never agreed and he never showed me invoice of the expenses he is claiming.

I was informed that if I owe him money then he needs to sue me in court to give the balance amount , he CANNOT keep the keys and documents, it’s illegal for him to do that

My wife is pregnant and he is aware, this is causing us inconvenience as she has to walk a long way to open the door

Can I report to the police that since I Don’t have my keys, any theft or crime the builder should be responsible?

chippy · Sep 03, 2024 9:23 pm

As they say, possession is 9 tenths of the law.
You have possession of the house so it's harder for him at this point.
If you have the physical keys I'd just get the door lock reprogrammed so you have the code. It's usually simple enough to do or worst case scenario you can get a locksmith to do it, but some google searching will normally tell you the process. The mastercode is often 0000 and then other numbers get programmed in.
At least that way you aren't inconvenienced. There are probably proximity fobs, but again you can probably get new ones.
Any manuals can be downloaded from the manufacturers.
What other documents is he withholding?

ownerinproblem · Sep 03, 2024 9:38 pm

chippy

As they say, possession is 9 tenths of the law.
You have possession of the house so it's harder for him at this point.
If you have the physical keys I'd just get the door lock reprogrammed so you have the code. It's usually simple enough to do or worst case scenario you can get a locksmith to do it, but some google searching will normally tell you the process. The mastercode is often 0000 and then other numbers get programmed in.
At least that way you aren't inconvenienced. There are probably proximity fobs, but again you can probably get new ones.
Any manuals can be downloaded from the manufacturers.
What other documents is he withholding?

What’s harder for him?

All documents that come with the house, warranty, termite protection etc etc

and he has refused to fix anything until I pay him his extortion money!

It’s a Samsung digital lock, it cannot be programmed without the digital keys,, what about warranty on house?

This is literally blackmail from the builder

He took some cash from me for the stage payment and let go off the GST.

He took like 60-70 k in cash.

I got him to confirm on emails that all my stage payment have been cleared and there are no dues

If I report him to the ATO, can I also get into trouble?

chippy · Sep 03, 2024 9:55 pm

ownerinproblem

chippy

As they say, possession is 9 tenths of the law.
You have possession of the house so it's harder for him at this point.
If you have the physical keys I'd just get the door lock reprogrammed so you have the code. It's usually simple enough to do or worst case scenario you can get a locksmith to do it, but some google searching will normally tell you the process. The mastercode is often 0000 and then other numbers get programmed in.
At least that way you aren't inconvenienced. There are probably proximity fobs, but again you can probably get new ones.
Any manuals can be downloaded from the manufacturers.
What other documents is he withholding?

What’s harder for him?

All documents that come with the house, warranty, termite protection etc etc

and he has refused to fix anything until I pay him his extortion money!

It’s a Samsung digital lock, it cannot be programmed without the digital keys,, what about warranty on house?

This is literally blackmail from the builder

Firstly you can definitely reset the Samsung lock back to factory settings and then reprogram it with your own codes. It's on YouTube.

Police aren't going to get involved, it's a civil matter.

What I meant by it being harder for him is you are actually in the house living in it. Yes he has withheld some paperwork and isn't going to do maintenance which is a pain for you, but at least you have possession of the house and he would have to take you to court if he wants his extra money.
I guess all you can do is request the invoices for the work he is charging the variation for and explain that you won't pay until you see them.

It sounds like your relationship with the builder is at a point that you aren't going to get much out of them with regards warranty unless legal action is taken. I think you need to decide if that's the path you need to go down

chippy · Sep 03, 2024 10:00 pm

If a builder requested cash for payment so as to avoid GST that should have rung alarm bells instantly.
And the fact that you were prepared to do it so you received a discount is also a lapse of judgement on your behalf.

But ultimately the responsibility to report his payments is on him. It sounds like he also pays trades off the books, so yes if you want to report them then I'm sure the ATO would be pleased to know.

https://www.ato.gov.au/about-ato/tax-av ... -a-tip-off

ownerinproblem · Sep 03, 2024 10:21 pm

Duplicate

ownerinproblem · Sep 03, 2024 10:25 pm

chippy

ownerinproblem

chippy

As they say, possession is 9 tenths of the law.
You have possession of the house so it's harder for him at this point.
If you have the physical keys I'd just get the door lock reprogrammed so you have the code. It's usually simple enough to do or worst case scenario you can get a locksmith to do it, but some google searching will normally tell you the process. The mastercode is often 0000 and then other numbers get programmed in.
At least that way you aren't inconvenienced. There are probably proximity fobs, but again you can probably get new ones.
Any manuals can be downloaded from the manufacturers.
What other documents is he withholding?

What’s harder for him?

All documents that come with the house, warranty, termite protection etc etc

and he has refused to fix anything until I pay him his extortion money!

It’s a Samsung digital lock, it cannot be programmed without the digital keys,, what about warranty on house?

This is literally blackmail from the builder

Firstly you can definitely reset the Samsung lock back to factory settings and then reprogram it with your own codes. It's on YouTube.

Police aren't going to get involved, it's a civil matter.

What I meant by it being harder for him is you are actually in the house living in it. Yes he has withheld some paperwork and isn't going to do maintenance which is a pain for you, but at least you have possession of the house and he would have to take you to court if he wants his extra money.
I guess all you can do is request the invoices for the work he is charging the variation for and explain that you won't pay until you see them.

It sounds like your relationship with the builder is at a point that you aren't going to get much out of them with regards warranty unless legal action is taken. I think you need to decide if that's the path you need to go down

This is the problem with small Asian builders, they operate their operations from overseas without actually visiting the site, and make blunders and then do unethical business

chippy · Sep 03, 2024 10:54 pm

ownerinproblem

chippy

ownerinproblem

What’s harder for him?

All documents that come with the house, warranty, termite protection etc etc

and he has refused to fix anything until I pay him his extortion money!

It’s a Samsung digital lock, it cannot be programmed without the digital keys,, what about warranty on house?

This is literally blackmail from the builder

Firstly you can definitely reset the Samsung lock back to factory settings and then reprogram it with your own codes. It's on YouTube.

Police aren't going to get involved, it's a civil matter.

What I meant by it being harder for him is you are actually in the house living in it. Yes he has withheld some paperwork and isn't going to do maintenance which is a pain for you, but at least you have possession of the house and he would have to take you to court if he wants his extra money.
I guess all you can do is request the invoices for the work he is charging the variation for and explain that you won't pay until you see them.

It sounds like your relationship with the builder is at a point that you aren't going to get much out of them with regards warranty unless legal action is taken. I think you need to decide if that's the path you need to go down

This is the problem with small Asian builders, they operate their operations from overseas without actually visiting the site, and make blunders and then do unethical business

Absolutely. It's an enormous issue in the building industry. I'm amazed at the people who can get builders licences (and keep them) without the apparent skills and experience.
The trades they often use are also of questionable skill level, possibly not even meant to be working in Australia and as it would appear in your case are working for cash.

It's why due diligence is so important when trying to find a builder. Ask around and go look at their other builds. You soon get an idea by looking at the sites they run and the trades they use what sort of builder that are.

If you think things have broken down to the point that you probably won't get anything further from the builder (which it sounds like you won't) then just reporting them to the ATO is the nuclear option. You did the wrong thing by choosing to pay cash, but I'd say he has a lot more to lose and is quite possibly involved in using unqualified and possibly unregistered trades hence the reason he wanted cash to pay them off the books at a reduced rate.
The ATO have more power and more appetite to go after people than the building regulators who should be the agencies that you can turn to in your situation.

ownerinproblem · Sep 04, 2024 6:36 am

chippy

ownerinproblem

chippy

Firstly you can definitely reset the Samsung lock back to factory settings and then reprogram it with your own codes. It's on YouTube.

Police aren't going to get involved, it's a civil matter.

What I meant by it being harder for him is you are actually in the house living in it. Yes he has withheld some paperwork and isn't going to do maintenance which is a pain for you, but at least you have possession of the house and he would have to take you to court if he wants his extra money.
I guess all you can do is request the invoices for the work he is charging the variation for and explain that you won't pay until you see them.

It sounds like your relationship with the builder is at a point that you aren't going to get much out of them with regards warranty unless legal action is taken. I think you need to decide if that's the path you need to go down

This is the problem with small Asian builders, they operate their operations from overseas without actually visiting the site, and make blunders and then do unethical business

Absolutely. It's an enormous issue in the building industry. I'm amazed at the people who can get builders licences (and keep them) without the apparent skills and experience.
The trades they often use are also of questionable skill level, possibly not even meant to be working in Australia and as it would appear in your case are working for cash.

It's why due diligence is so important when trying to find a builder. Ask around and go look at their other builds. You soon get an idea by looking at the sites they run and the trades they use what sort of builder that are.

If you think things have broken down to the point that you probably won't get anything further from the builder (which it sounds like you won't) then just reporting them to the ATO is the nuclear option. You did the wrong thing by choosing to pay cash, but I'd say he has a lot more to lose and is quite possibly involved in using unqualified and possibly unregistered trades hence the reason he wanted cash to pay them off the books at a reduced rate.
The ATO have more power and more appetite to go after people than the building regulators who should be the agencies that you can turn to in your situation.

I appreciate your help and support
Feel a bit at comfort talking to someone and getting a response

Pedro4137 · Sep 04, 2024 9:43 am

Still owe money, living in house?

ownerinproblem · Sep 04, 2024 11:26 am

Pedro4137

Still owe money, living in house?

Living in the house yes
Owe money, no, I do not owe any money to the builder

He came up with the variation a day before the handover

A variation for which he failed to provide invoices, and I never agreed on the $$ amount

Pedro4137 · Sep 04, 2024 1:58 pm

ownerinproblem

Pedro4137

Still owe money, living in house?

Living in the house yes
Owe money, no, I do not owe any money to the builder

He came up with the variation a day before the handover

A variation for which he failed to provide invoices, and I never agreed on the $$ amount

How did contract end?

The final invoice payment did not include “variation”

Pulse · Sep 04, 2024 9:47 pm

I think you need to open yourself to negotiation. If the bidet was not on the plans then as chippy said it’s on you. Communication is a 2 way thing, just because you told him at frame stage it doesn’t mean he understood what you meant. Look at the big picture, negotiate a figure neither of you are 100% happy with and enjoy the house. A few grand is not worth the heartache and lawyers will cost more and drag it out.

ownerinproblem · Sep 04, 2024 11:25 pm

Pedro4137

ownerinproblem

Pedro4137

Still owe money, living in house?

Living in the house yes
Owe money, no, I do not owe any money to the builder

He came up with the variation a day before the handover

A variation for which he failed to provide invoices, and I never agreed on the $$ amount

How did contract end?

The final invoice payment did not include “variation”

Nope, the variation came out of the blue first for a piece of work, when I clarified, then came for another one

ownerinproblem · Sep 04, 2024 11:26 pm

Pulse

I think you need to open yourself to negotiation. If the bidet was not on the plans then as chippy said it’s on you. Communication is a 2 way thing, just because you told him at frame stage it doesn’t mean he understood what you meant. Look at the big picture, negotiate a figure neither of you are 100% happy with and enjoy the house. A few grand is not worth the heartache and lawyers will cost more and drag it out.

Bidet was never part of the plan, I did that post handover
The water outlet point was the issue, which the builder didn’t do right at first place

chippy · Sep 05, 2024 12:24 am

ownerinproblem

Pulse

I think you need to open yourself to negotiation. If the bidet was not on the plans then as chippy said it’s on you. Communication is a 2 way thing, just because you told him at frame stage it doesn’t mean he understood what you meant. Look at the big picture, negotiate a figure neither of you are 100% happy with and enjoy the house. A few grand is not worth the heartache and lawyers will cost more and drag it out.

Bidet was never part of the plan, I did that post handover
The water outlet point was the issue, which the builder didn’t do right at first place

This is the one issue I have with what you have said. Most water outlets are installed behind the cistern. That is standard because it looks all neat.
What you wanted is not standard and is a detail that should have been communicated during prestart. You never mentioned anything to him about a bidet seats because you were doing it yourself after handover, so he wasn't to know. Informing him after rough in is too late.
The builder is in his right to charge you a variation and then for the cost to move the water outlet.

The other issues that you have had is one thing and is really a seperate issue to the toilet variation.

I would try and negotiate with the builder. He can charge you the variation fee that is noted in your contract and then should produce invoices for the works and he will charge you the builders margin.
As you can see, the cost will ratchet up fairly quickly and may be very close to what you have been invoiced. See if he will meet you in the middle or possibly drop the variation price.

ownerinproblem · Sep 05, 2024 10:34 pm

chippy

ownerinproblem

Pulse

I think you need to open yourself to negotiation. If the bidet was not on the plans then as chippy said it’s on you. Communication is a 2 way thing, just because you told him at frame stage it doesn’t mean he understood what you meant. Look at the big picture, negotiate a figure neither of you are 100% happy with and enjoy the house. A few grand is not worth the heartache and lawyers will cost more and drag it out.

Bidet was never part of the plan, I did that post handover
The water outlet point was the issue, which the builder didn’t do right at first place

This is the one issue I have with what you have said. Most water outlets are installed behind the cistern. That is standard because it looks all neat.
What you wanted is not standard and is a detail that should have been communicated during prestart. You never mentioned anything to him about a bidet seats because you were doing it yourself after handover, so he wasn't to know. Informing him after rough in is too late.
The builder is in his right to charge you a variation and then for the cost to move the water outlet.

The other issues that you have had is one thing and is really a seperate issue to the toilet variation.

I would try and negotiate with the builder. He can charge you the variation fee that is noted in your contract and then should produce invoices for the works and he will charge you the builders margin.
As you can see, the cost will ratchet up fairly quickly and may be very close to what you have been invoiced. See if he will meet you in the middle or possibly drop the variation price.

I am not denying the fact that there is a variation cost, BUT I informed him this during framing stage which was way way cheaper to do than AFTER Gyprock was done.

He refused to do that on grounds of Australian Standards while it was NOT the case.

The team managing my build is overseas and are not aware on Australian standards and there were other instances where they were proven wrong

The cost of 2 toilet seat upgrade is $340,

All I asked him is to show me the invoices and I WILL pay him, BUT he is refusing to provide the invoices, which proves my point he is just charging me money for the rectification work he had to do before handover and use this variation as a cover up

I am contacting the council and CBS to complain about him

And I don’t need a lawyer to explain basic maths, I can do it myself considering my contract has a CLEAR clause about variation

All variations must be agreed to by me, which was never done in this case

ownerinproblem · Sep 06, 2024 11:27 am

The builder has agreed to do a handover

Was informed by them that legally I am not allowed to live without a compliance certificate, which I don’t have for my house apparently!