Don't tilers grout around penetrating pipes when tiling?

djay · Jul 21, 2024 3:20 pm

Hi all,

Our newly built house had water-damage in our ensuite vanity cabinet's side panels just 6 months after the build got completed. Apparently there is a leak which happens everytime the toilet is flushed. As the there was no grouting done around the waste pipe of the toilet, when the toilet leaked, all the water went through the gap, under the tiles and surfaced around where the vanity is (about 80cm away from the toilet). That vanity side panels has absorbed all that water and swelled up.
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The plumber came last week and removed the toilet to inspect the leak. The leak will most likely be fixed next week and the vanity cabinet's side panels replaced. But my concern is, if there is to be another leak from beneath the toilet in the future, the same issue will happen again. That is, that leaking water will go through the spaces between the tiles and the waste pipe and the water will just collect under the tiles.

Luckily this ensuite is in ground level and we have a concrete slab under the tiles. If it had occurred upstairs, the damage could have been much worse (eg the subfloor would have had significant water damage).

My question is this: Why do tilers not grout around this gap between the tiles and floor-penetrating pipes? Apparently tilers usually don't grout there, but I can't understand why. Or is our tiler trying to avoid responsibility of this issue?

Thanks

Djay

djay · Jul 23, 2024 11:31 am

Any tilers or plumbers on this forum that can provide inputs on this one?

Ashington Homes · Jul 23, 2024 1:57 pm

djay

Any tilers or plumbers on this forum that can provide inputs on this one?

Djay

I am a builder so I will give you my input.

This bathroom is 100% defective and needs to be torn out.

The issue is not missing grout around the waste. The issue is that from the picture it looks like the vanity has been installed directly onto the waterproofing.

Grout is does not stop water unless it is an epoxy based one which we use in swimming pools.

Waterproofing is meant to be a barrier from the subfloor and frames which takes water underneath the tiles to the drain.

The fact that you have water under the tiles which has then penetrated your cabinets as they have tiled around your cabinets is quite astonishing.

You said your build is 6 months old so I would be taking this up with the builder in the first instance and then if that doesn't achieve any result to whomever is the governing authority in your state

Cheers

Simeon

djay · Jul 23, 2024 7:01 pm

Hi Simeon,

Thanks for your response!

No, the floor isn't waterproofed. As it is on a ground-floor slab, I believe waterproofing wasn't required. Only the edges of the ensuite (and of course the area under and around the shower) has been waterproofed.

I wonder if your response will change, given waterproofing wasn't required on top of the slab? If it had been a timber subfloor, then I do understand your viewpoint.

Thanks
djay

Bimbob · Jul 24, 2024 4:44 am

djay

Hi Simeon,

Thanks for your response!

No, the floor isn't waterproofed. As it is on a ground-floor slab, I believe waterproofing wasn't required. Only the edges of the ensuite (and of course the area under and around the shower) has been waterproofed.

I wonder if your response will change, given waterproofing wasn't required on top of the slab? If it had been a timber subfloor, then I do understand your viewpoint.

Thanks
djay

Everything Simeon said is correct.
Everything you have assumed is incorrect.

Defective and non compliant wet area

Ashington Homes · Jul 24, 2024 9:19 am

djay

Hi Simeon,

Thanks for your response!

No, the floor isn't waterproofed. As it is on a ground-floor slab, I believe waterproofing wasn't required. Only the edges of the ensuite (and of course the area under and around the shower) has been waterproofed.

I wonder if your response will change, given waterproofing wasn't required on top of the slab? If it had been a timber subfloor, then I do understand your viewpoint.

Thanks
djay

I hate to be the one to break it too you, but waterproofing is required in every wet area no matter what the subfloor is.

Waterproofing not only stops water damaging in the subfloor, but we also install water stops which are angles to stop water leaving the wet area and damaging the frames, floors in neighbouring rooms and door jambs etc.

Waterproofing the walls is also essential to stop water going into neighbouring rooms.

Who told you that you didn't need waterproofing?

Like genuinely I try to not say anything mean and negative in this forum, but the person who built your home should not be allowed any where near a construction site. And where was the inspector?

ponzutwo · Jul 24, 2024 1:16 pm

Ashington Homes

Who told you that you didn't need waterproofing?

I cant speak to the OPs situation, but i think there are a few approved alternate solutions around that don't install waterproofing like you'd expect. I think Carlisle Homes has one and their approved alternate solution requires a yearly inspection of the area to confirm no water damage (at a cost to the client, of course). I don't recall the exact solution, but not doing the concrete floors etc sound familiar.

edit - not sure this is Carlisle's, but this is the type of crap thats happening in lieu of a traditional waterproofing set up

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Ashington Homes · Jul 24, 2024 7:16 pm

ponzutwo

Ashington Homes

Who told you that you didn't need waterproofing?

I cant speak to the OPs situation, but i think there are a few approved alternate solutions around that don't install waterproofing like you'd expect. I think Carlisle Homes has one and their approved alternate solution requires a yearly inspection of the area to confirm no water damage (at a cost to the client, of course). I don't recall the exact solution, but not doing the concrete floors etc sound familiar.

edit - not sure this is Carlisle's, but this is the type of crap thats happening in lieu of a traditional waterproofing set up

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Wow! Just to save $600. I don't comprehend why anyone would be out to save money on waterproofing.

ponzutwo · Jul 24, 2024 7:41 pm

Ashington Homes

ponzutwo

Ashington Homes

Who told you that you didn't need waterproofing?

I cant speak to the OPs situation, but i think there are a few approved alternate solutions around that don't install waterproofing like you'd expect. I think Carlisle Homes has one and their approved alternate solution requires a yearly inspection of the area to confirm no water damage (at a cost to the client, of course). I don't recall the exact solution, but not doing the concrete floors etc sound familiar.

edit - not sure this is Carlisle's, but this is the type of crap thats happening in lieu of a traditional waterproofing set up

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Wow! Just to save $600. I don't comprehend why anyone would be out to save money on waterproofing.

So I know you KNOW this, being in business yourself AND having worked for a big volume builder... but economies of scale work in all sorts of ways. 600 bucks over 1k homes a year? 600k! Do that for 10 years, 6M.

It's really hard to be a large business and not make that choice. Then done at scale across everything else. Is it right? No.
Kids, and that's why you don't buy a soccer team, run your business into the ground and then kill yourself.

SaveH2O · Jul 24, 2024 8:57 pm

I believe that Porter Davis were the first to have an Alternative Solution (now known as a Performance Solution) certified by an industry expert to allow for a water resistant finish with added householder conditions such as having an annual inspection and having to lay towels on the floor etc etc.

There was a Homeone Porter Davis thread maybe six years ago where this was discussed after one member let it be known. A forum search using the key words Porter Davis waterproof and water resistant should surface the thread.

It wasn't long before several other large volume builders followed suit.

djay · Jul 25, 2024 12:11 pm

Can someone pls point me to the building standard that stipulates that "waterproofing is required in every wet area no matter what the subfloor is"? According to NCC, any wet area outside the shower which is on a concrete slab only needs to have "water resistant" flooring (eg tiles only). On the other hand, if you have timber flooring (including particleboard), then the entire wet area floor is required to be waterproofed.

Here is a link to this standard: https://ncc.abcb.gov.au/editions/ncc-20 ... erproofing. Look under section 10.2.3.

Essentially this standard confirms that waterproofing is not required on the entire concrete slab of a wet area (with the exception of a shower area). Our builder says doing waterproofing in those areas is optional - but would be an overkill - in the same way you wouldn't do waterproofing of kitchen floors.

Does anyone know of a standard that is contrary to the above? Eg some other standard that mentions the mandatory requirement of waterproofing the entire wet area (outside the shower) on concrete slab? If so, could you pls share that with me?

Thanks
Djay

Bimbob · Jul 26, 2024 9:02 am

Regardless of how the code is interpreted you have a water leak issue causing the vanity suffer watter damage.

Regardless of what the code states, this issue must be resolved.

The shower screen, from the image I can see, seems not to be compliant with the shower setdown reqs. Tis may be the cause of the leak.

SaveH2O · Jul 26, 2024 10:15 am

The NCC is a performance based document and work done must meet the minimum requirement in the stated Performance Requirements, regardless of the method used when undertaking that work.

djay · Jul 26, 2024 11:52 am

Thanks Bimbob and SaveH2O. Sounds like we can conclude the waterproofing is within the NCC code and is not the issue here. And I can also confirm the shower screen is not causing the leak - as the plumber has already confirmed water was dripping from within the toilet suite and onto the tiles. He ran a camera inside and we saw the leak whenever the toilet is being flushed (just couple of drops each time). The plumber will most likely replace the toilet suite to fix the issue.

If I could pls go back to my original question: As the there was no grouting done around the waste pipe of the toilet (which you can see on the pictures I posted above), when the toilet leaked, all the water goes through that gap. My question is this: Why do tilers not grout around this gap between the tiles and floor-penetrating pipes? Apparently tilers usually don't grout there (according to our tiler), but I can't understand why. Or is our tiler trying to avoid responsibility of this issue?

Do other tilers in this forum follow other work practices where the area around the waste pipe do get grouted?

Thanks
djay

ponzutwo · Jul 26, 2024 11:55 am

i think you need to look at this a little more objectively, if the waterproofing was up to code, your cabinets a meter away wouldn't be water damaged.

Bimbob · Jul 26, 2024 12:05 pm

Basically because theres no need to tile it if its not going to be seen.

djay · Jul 26, 2024 12:12 pm

Hi ponzutwo,

According to NCC, waterproofing seems to be upto code. Yes, we do need to look at the situation objectively, and that means not just looking at waterproofing to be the possible cause. It could be other issues at play here.

The situation is this: The sidepanels of the vanity cabinet are resting on the concrete floor. Floor tiles have been done around the vanity cabinet. The water leak has occured from underneath the toilet suite and has gone through the gaps between the tiles and the waste pipe. Had the gap between the tiles and waste pipe been grouted, most likely the water would just collect on the tiles around the toilet and we would have easily picked up this issue within a week. And the plumber would have been immediately called and there would have been no damage to the vanity cabinets whatsoever.

But because no grouting was done around the waste pipe, the water leak would have just seeped through that gap and have gone below the tiles. That is, the leak went completely undetected - no water was ever visible around the toilet. 6 months later we see the swelling of the vanity side panels.

Do plumbers/builders on this forum usually see grouting done around the waste pipe? What is the usual standard for tiling when it comes to grouting around waste pipes?

Bimbob · Jul 26, 2024 12:53 pm

Youve been told, I am a plumber and a builder.
Your refusal to accept opinion other than your own will see the issue reoccour in the future

ponzutwo · Jul 26, 2024 12:56 pm

djay

Hi ponzutwo,

According to NCC, waterproofing seems to be upto code. Yes, we do need to look at the situation objectively, and that means not just looking at waterproofing to be the possible cause. It could be other issues at play here.

The situation is this: The sidepanels of the vanity cabinet are resting on the concrete floor. Floor tiles have been done around the vanity cabinet. The water leak has occured from underneath the toilet suite and has gone through the gaps between the tiles and the waste pipe. Had the gap between the tiles and waste pipe been grouted, most likely the water would just collect on the tiles around the toilet and we would have easily picked up this issue within a week. And the plumber would have been immediately called and there would have been no damage to the vanity cabinets whatsoever.

But because no grouting was done around the waste pipe, the water leak would have just seeped through that gap and have gone below the tiles. That is, the leak went completely undetected - no water was ever visible around the toilet. 6 months later we see the swelling of the vanity side panels.

Do plumbers/builders on this forum usually see grouting done around the waste pipe? What is the usual standard for tiling when it comes to grouting around waste pipes?

"Appears to be" is not the same as "is". You have had a pretty esteemed builder already give you their opinion.

With a fix of the leak and grouting of the area, if you have another leak of this variety, you will have the same problem. With that in mind, do you still feel the intended performance of this section is meeting code?

One thing you need to realise with building is that shortcuts are taken by many builders. Right now, you don't have any proof that the waterproofing or water resistance is operating as intended. But you do have proof that it isn't.

You can focus on the leak and the grout and stick your head in the sand on this, but it's clear that the system installed didn't restrict the water movement and has resulted in damage. It's possible you might have more damage than you can actually see too. I'd reccomend getting a thermal camera (or getting somone with one) to inspect the area before you actually decide that its up to code.

Pulse · Jul 27, 2024 8:45 pm

Just wanted to add that the MDF cabinet is sitting on your waterproofing in the wet mortar bed, wicking up water.

The waterproofing might be working but the detailing is poor. The mortar bed out of the shower should be pretty dry normally.

At a minimum the cabinet needs replacing and you need to check no water is entering other rooms and also fix the toilet leak, as stated earlier, grout is not done under the toilet since it doesn’t contribute to waterproofing unless it is epoxy.