Browse Forums Building A New House 1 Nov 02, 2008 8:34 pm Hi, I am an owner builder. I haven't even started laying the first brick, and the workers are already ripping me off.
I went to a draughtsman to get a new house plan done. So, his services were completed and paid for. So he decided to help me and gave a structural engineer my home plan and told him to get me a quote. (We did discuss a concrete top floor slab with the draughtsman, so he knew we were thinking about it, but I don't know what the draughtsman said to the engineer so I don't know if the engineer knew we were considering it). The structural engineer started the job without me giving him permission to do so. I got a phone call from the engineer saying the job was complete and to come to pick it up. I told him I didn't tell him to start the job, I just wanted a quote. He said it was ready and he wanted the money. I paid him $2100. I said, is this for everying. He said yes. He said if you want the discount (which I did, I think it was about $300), I would not be getting a receipt for the job. I said fine, O.K I'll have the discount. So at this stage, I have no receipt. Then as soon as he handed me the engineer plans, he said but I have to tell you something. I thought oh no, here it comes. He said. Do you plan on building in full brick. I said yes, I would prefer that as I don't like stud walls (wooden walls). He said, then the plans are not complete as he did them for a timber top floor, not concrete slab which is required if you want all your internal walls in brick + full brick outer walls. O.K I said, then finish it off. He said, no not without extra money. He did not even try to contact me to ask me this very important question before he started the job (without my permission) on whether I wanted everything in full brick or not. Now he says he will not finish it off without the extra money. He also led me to believe I was paying for everything . Now he says he will not finish it off without the extra money. This is the email he sent me: Quotation Structural design and details for 1st floor reinforced concrete slab including verandah* and balcony* slabs and internal stairs. *The verandah and balcony slabs were included in the previous design (F26/08) with an internal timber floor. These slabs will now have to be intergral with the internal slab for the 1st floor slab design. $ 1500.00 This price does not include GST So, total structural engineer plans would cost all up $3,600 + GST for the $1500 part. I've got a feeling I've been ripped off. Has anyone got any advice. What should I do. Remember I have no receipt. Thankyou Re: Structural Engineer causes problems. What can I do? 2Nov 02, 2008 9:05 pm Without knowing the design of the house the quote seems quite good priced BUT it seems the engineer should not of proceeded without your written instructions, the enginneer should of not been so agressive for money and further more as an Architect I always check the engineers drawings to ensure they match the architectural drawings and vice versa. i'll be chasing the draftsperson as well since I consider it poor service to not check the engineers drawings to ensure it was done with conc slab etc. I always check the engineers drawings and when happy then instruct the client to proceed with payment to engineer. You did not recive good service sofar.
Good luck Re: Structural Engineer causes problems. What can I do? 3Nov 02, 2008 9:23 pm Ok, thanks for your response. So you say he didn't rip me off as the price is correct, thanks for that advice, but still I don't want him to finish the job off, as I really don't like what both of them did (starting the job without my permission and then leading me to believe that the money was for everything when it wasn't). In fact, I don't trust him now because, he * to me.
When a person wants a quote, they mean EVERYTHING. I have never heard of "part quotes". This is not a good sign, so I guess I got off easy. I will seek a different company to finish the plans off. In fact, I better run, before he really does rip me off as the signs don't look good. Remember when they do little annoying things like this in the beginning (it might be small) but it is a sign that they may do much worse things later on. Run don't walk. I recommend also if a builder does things like this, do not sign any contract. Get out as fast as you can. Imagine a builder saying, "but I left some things out" that will be $200,000 extra, and no, the things were not included in the contract. That's the problem with hiring a builder or with being an owner builder, Even if you have the knowledge, you do not know about the technical side of things (maybe only a bit). All I ask from the workers is for a quote, and I can't get a straight answer. That's all I want, not this beating around the bush with "the price that is, Or is it, really?" thing & "oh, but I left something out". It's kind of annoying. Re: Structural Engineer causes problems. What can I do? 4Nov 02, 2008 10:11 pm How did you pay him ? The "no receipt" scam simply means he's avoiding paying tax. I would go back & ask for a receipt - this has clear implications regarding the Tax Dept. In other words, you still have some bargaining power. Do the hard jobs first. The easy jobs will take care of themselves. - Dale Carnegie Re: Structural Engineer causes problems. What can I do? 5Nov 02, 2008 10:15 pm The fact that the structural engineer did not issue a receipt for a discount would suggest that he is not honest. I would check that he is registered.
It's a pity that you paid him since if you asked for was a quote, he should not have proceeded. I would ask for my money back or for the job to be finished. If he doesn't finish the job off for the payment made for everything, I would use someone else to finish it off. Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Re: Structural Engineer causes problems. What can I do? 6Nov 02, 2008 10:35 pm I paid by cash. Today I checked, he is registered because he has an ABN number on his letterhead email. That is a relief. At least now I know that his work is correct.
I don't trust him, that is why I really don't want him to finish off the job. The only way I would consider going back to him and get it finished off would be if another engineer were to greatly overcharge me. Even then, I would not be happy about going back to him, who knows what he is thinking to do to me. I would rather pay the rest ($1,500) to an honest engineer worker, at least I will be sure that they will do the job correctly and completely with no troubles. Just hope the next engineer I find is more honest and less troublesome. But all of this is normal. It would be sort of a miracle if an owner builder were to have absolutely no problems, not even a small one. Also, he won't give me a computer (CD) copy (Autocad DWG File). He said "I don't do that". He said he just gives out paper copies only. (I have 4 copies). Are they enough for an owner builder? Isn't the cd copy supposed to be part of the price? It would be easier if he gave me a cd copy as I can make more copies when the subcontractors need them. Now I am going to get another quote from another company to finish off the job. Re: Structural Engineer causes problems. What can I do? 7Nov 03, 2008 7:21 pm Hi, this guy should be reported to the state engineer registering authority, and the tax department. His behaviour is unethical, unprofessional and illegal (everyone else pays taxes, why shouldn't he?). If he has * to you, who says he hasn't * to get registered? With these ethics, who says he hasn't been a slap-happy with the engineering calculations?
Garn. Re: Structural Engineer causes problems. What can I do? 8Nov 03, 2008 7:31 pm orange I paid by cash. Today I checked, he is registered because he has an ABN number on his letterhead email. That is a relief. At least now I know that his work is correct. I don't trust him, that is why I really don't want him to finish off the job. The only way I would consider going back to him and get it finished off would be if another engineer were to greatly overcharge me. Even then, I would not be happy about going back to him, who knows what he is thinking to do to me. I would rather pay the rest ($1,500) to an honest engineer worker, at least I will be sure that they will do the job correctly and completely with no troubles. Just hope the next engineer I find is more honest and less troublesome. But all of this is normal. It would be sort of a miracle if an owner builder were to have absolutely no problems, not even a small one. Also, he won't give me a computer (CD) copy (Autocad DWG File). He said "I don't do that". He said he just gives out paper copies only. (I have 4 copies). Are they enough for an owner builder? Isn't the cd copy supposed to be part of the price? It would be easier if he gave me a cd copy as I can make more copies when the subcontractors need them. Now I am going to get another quote from another company to finish off the job. orange, The fact that he has an ABN does not mean he is registered as a Certified Practicing Engineer (CPEng). Check him out on https://fwas.engineersaustralia.org.au/ ... h/home.jsp. Let us know if he's registered. Cheers, Casa Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Re: Structural Engineer causes problems. What can I do? 9Nov 03, 2008 7:37 pm If your project is in melbourne then the engineer will need to supply a certificate of compliance for the building permit. If he hasn't then he is operating illegally and must be reported to building commission, don't know much about other states but could be similar conditions
Anyway its not nomal to provide CAD drawings to clients because they can change things without the engineer knowing, but normally if yourve engaged another engineer to "finish/redo' the engineering its common for the new engineer to ask a copy of cad drawings directly from the old engineer to speed and reduce the costs of starting all over again etc. 4 copies is bit slim, 6 usually is more common, but then again since you didn't get a quote in the first place that would of stated how many copies he would of given he now probably just did the bare minimum, hate to see how bad his drawings could be but then again I'm just being abit negative and his drawings could be quite good. Lets hope so for you. Hope he helps the new engineer and subsequently helps you. Re: Structural Engineer causes problems. What can I do? 10Nov 03, 2008 10:38 pm Casa2 The fact that he has an ABN does not mean he is registered as a Certified Practicing Engineer (CPEng). Check him out on https://fwas.engineersaustralia.org.au/ ... h/home.jsp. Let us know if he's registered. The fact that the engineer is a CPEng (Chartered Professional Engineer) is insufficient. CPEng status simply means that you are keeping your qualifications up to date by regular education, seminars, etc....that is sufficient points/hours to prove to the Institute of Engineers that you kept up to date in the year being tested. I have CPEng status but I cannot undertake "building work" because I am not a Registered Building Practioner...I have other post nominals so that I can work in the field of engineering I do work in. Whilst I can and have done structural engineering computations (in non "building work") any work I do for "building work" would need to be verified by an RBP. RBP's are recognised by the Building Commission and are insured. Which is why I wouldn't touch domestic work with a six foot barge pole....suffice to say I know enough to be dangerous... From the Building Commission.... http://www.buildingcommission.com.au/re ... FINAL2.pdf The Building Regulations 2006 outline the various categories and classes of building practitioners. Suitability for registration is based upon the nature and extent of qualifications and experience. The following categories and classes of building practitioners are currently required to be registered with the BPB: • Building surveyor • Building inspector (Unlimited/Limited) • Quantity surveyor • Engineer (Civil/Mechanical/Electrical/Fire Safety) • Draftsperson (Building design – architectural, interior, services) • Builder (Commercial builder – unlimited/limited) • Builder (Domestic builder – unlimited/limited/manager) • Builder (Demolisher – low rise buildings/medium rise buildings/unlimited) • Erector or supervisor (temporary structures – Class 1 and 2). Engineers are also supposed to follow a Code of Ethics from the Institute of Engineers, Australia...I'm sure Dakis similarly has one from the Institute of Architects. Certainly the behavior described by orange is unethical when tested against this code. mmm....donuts Homer Simpson 1956- Links: Site Costs Ready Reckoner | H1 Addiction Medical Advice | Château TDL: The Backyard Re: Structural Engineer causes problems. What can I do? 11Nov 04, 2008 7:35 pm Anyway, I did as suggested and yes he is registered on the national engineers registration board until June 2009, but I don't know about the quality of his work. I'll show the engineer plans to the bricklayer before I start anything and see what he has to say, but if the subcontractors say that the engineer plans are faulty, I would definitely go to his place to demand my money back. And I would'nt leave until he gave me a full refund. But this is only if his work is faulty. Rather than making things easier for me (one complete plan, one payment) he has made them more difficult by splitting it up in two parts.
I know why he started the job without my permission. So I would not be able to get quotes from other engineers, and possibly me going to them instead. I had a talk with another structural/hydraulics engineer. I asked him to finish off the unfinished engineers job, but he said it wasn't a good idea. He said it was better for the original engineer who started the job to finish it off, and getting two was not a good idea. I was wondering why. Does it have something to do with the inspections? Garn says: self::bbcode_second_pass_code_cb I think you are right, so yes I am worried about that. just ask a carpenter/ builder, if they are unsure they will get the engineer to advise. 1 4805 3 8887 The engineering is the engineering. It's irrelevant how much material you have. Unless it fits the requirements of your design the engineer can't "make"it work. You might… 7 11982 |