Yep, Pay the design deposit, get locked into the preparation of plans
and then wait for the 2D engineering and cost variations , it's all bim here
Inverted Bim Curve enjoy the humour
Browse Forums Building A New House Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 41Apr 03, 2023 8:40 pm Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 48Apr 04, 2023 9:22 am Architectural Homes & Duplexes - specialising in custom designing homes to your budget Get a Free Onsite Consultation Today or send a PM for information, questions or advice. Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 49Apr 04, 2023 9:23 am Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 52Apr 04, 2023 9:37 am SJT76 Then please stop providing legal "advice" here - you are not qualified to do that. I've never claimed to be a lawyer...get that straight Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 53Apr 04, 2023 9:39 am StructuralBIMGuy SJT76 Then please stop providing legal "advice" here - you are not qualified to do that. I've never claimed to be a lawyer...get that straight I didn't say you had: I said that you should not provide legal advice given that you are not a lawyer. You are clearly wrong regarding ownership of plans and copyright, and your advice to terminate contracts on a whim is terrible. Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 54Apr 04, 2023 9:40 am strannik Ashington Homes I couldn't agree with you more! My belief is that the threat of copyright on plans is a threat used to scare people from going to other builders and essentially trapping them. the problem is that even the builders themselves are part of it. when we wanted to price our house with a different builder, they were worried about the copyright too. It is not until you work in the sausage making factory that is volume building that you can truly comprehend how nobody questions anything. I have a slightly different background where my whole job was managing large teams and projects and needing to question everything. We also had the luxury of having very expensive lawyers on tap who could answer these questions. So my conclusion is that that most builders have heard this copyright thing and never questioned it so just assume that it is true. I have been in a situation where the builder went broke mid build so we needed to bring in another one which ended up getting litigated in the NSW supreme court ( for slightly different reasons) so I have been able to flesh out these issues. A half decent lawyer will advise you to get the copyright released where you can, but there are circumstances where you can't and this is the area I am talking about. I think where the volume guys confuse themselves is that they correctly say that you cant take one of their display or standard designs, steal it and get another builder to put it on your site. But say you engage a builder to design you a house, get your approval and for whatever reason they dont complete the build ie the contract is terminated or they go into liquidation. Off course you can finish the build. Architectural Homes & Duplexes - specialising in custom designing homes to your budget Get a Free Onsite Consultation Today or send a PM for information, questions or advice. Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 55Apr 04, 2023 9:49 am Ashington Homes It is not until you work in the sausage making factory that is volume building They aren't buying a pound of sausages mate... it's their life saving and providing for their family well being... get it Advocating that they should sign up at any cost is BS Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 56Apr 04, 2023 9:51 am Ashington Homes A half decent lawyer will advise you to get the copyright released where you can, but there are circumstances where you can't and this is the area I am talking about. I think where the volume guys confuse themselves is that they correctly say that you cant take one of their display or standard designs, steal it and get another builder to put it on your site. But say you engage a builder to design you a house, get your approval and for whatever reason they dont complete the build ie the contract is terminated or they go into liquidation. Off course you can finish the build. yeah i have a feeling that a lot of people prefer to err on the side of caution, since they aren't lawyers/don't have one on the team readily available. and given most people are building a standard design it probably holds true for a majority of the construction projects anyway. also i think the build being not completed is a different story to someone shopping around, i'd expect that you'd have more chances to argue the copyright release in the former case. but then again, we were told to just move a wall or two to avoid copyright issues. and ours wasn't a standard design, we drew it all ourselves. so was a matter of just giving the original drawing to the builder #2, and making him apply all the same corrections that we asked from builder #1 to arrive to the same result. Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 57Apr 04, 2023 10:22 am strannik Ashington Homes A half decent lawyer will advise you to get the copyright released where you can, but there are circumstances where you can't and this is the area I am talking about. I think where the volume guys confuse themselves is that they correctly say that you cant take one of their display or standard designs, steal it and get another builder to put it on your site. But say you engage a builder to design you a house, get your approval and for whatever reason they dont complete the build ie the contract is terminated or they go into liquidation. Off course you can finish the build. yeah i have a feeling that a lot of people prefer to err on the side of caution, since they aren't lawyers/don't have one on the team readily available. and given most people are building a standard design it probably holds true for a majority of the construction projects anyway. also i think the build being not completed is a different story to someone shopping around, i'd expect that you'd have more chances to argue the copyright release in the former case. but then again, we were told to just move a wall or two to avoid copyright issues. and ours wasn't a standard design, we drew it all ourselves. so was a matter of just giving the original drawing to the builder #2, and making him apply all the same corrections that we asked from builder #1 to arrive to the same result. Hi strannik I am not advocating that you take a builder's plans and shop around. That would be wrong and unethical. What I am saying is that sometimes there are genuine circumstances where you engage a builder to design and construct you a house and that builder cannot or doesn't not want to undertake or complete the build. For instance; Example 1: A person signs up for an agreed price of say $600,000 and then the approval is granted and the price jumps to $800,000 and the client simply can't afford it. If there is a mechanism in the contract to terminate, which there usually is then i believe with the correct legal advice and following the correct legal termination procedure you should be able to take those plans to another builder Example 2: You start your build with the builder, and they breach contract by building too slowly, you follow the correct legal process of giving them notice and the ability to rectify their breaches and they still fail to comply and you terminate the contract you would still have the ability to complete the build with another builder. I have had a number of people from this forum come to me in the position of Example 1 and I have been able to help them by putting them in touch with a good lawyer. What I am essentially trying to say is that it is not as black and white as some people believe and often people feel trapped to the point of desperation when in fact, with the right advice there is often a solution. I hope this makes sense I have to go to some work now. Cheers Simeon Architectural Homes & Duplexes - specialising in custom designing homes to your budget Get a Free Onsite Consultation Today or send a PM for information, questions or advice. Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 58Apr 04, 2023 10:32 am Ashington Homes Additionally, we are assuming you have paid the designer/architect or builder to design and approve the house on your site, therefore you have paid for a service which you can then use. This is called "implied license"" and is fundamentally different to copyright. Copyright protects the drawings/plans from being substantially copied and/or used under conditions that they were not paid for by another party. This is the same when you buy a CD or a Bluray disc. The implied lisence if for your use, at home. Most people know you cant copy them as it’s a breach of copyright. Most are however not aware that these CDs and Blurays are not supposed to be lent to a friend, screened in public or broadcast, which would be a breach of the implied licence. This is why TV stations and streaming services cant just go buy a 40 buck Blueray and screen it to their audience. They pay for a lisence that can be exceptionally expensive (think millions or tens of millions) due to reach of these services and the likelihood of people opting to not purchase the good. The creator protects against loss of profit. When you engage someone to create House plans, the copyright remains with them unless you expressly paid to own the copyright and not just have someone design the home to be built on your block. The cost difference can be orders of magnitude higher, as the creator forgoes the right to create plans that are largely similar to the plans who’s copyright they no longer own. For a creator, this is a slippery slope as many creators have biases, preferences and quirks that could easily fall into the ”substantially similar” category and could be breaching a copyright they no longer own, by pure coincidence. It is very unlikely as a result that that you actually own anything when you engage somone to draw you up plans for you to shop around…So when bimclown keeps banging on about “owning the plans”, you might not be able to do with them as you wish, like say put them on a site they were not intended for. Wouldn’t like to fall into that trap , as you would likely need to pay more fees to have the licence extended. This whole öwn your own plans” is a bit of wishy washy mumbo jumbo, basically. Implied license can be denied by the creator in their contracts with you for the job. Meaning that if you specifically do no use the plans for their intended purpose, then the implied lisences does not extend to a third party and agreement must be sought from the creator. Usually for a fee. Ashington Homes In the case of the house and land package scenario I am not sure how this works, not my area of expertise, but again I would assume that if you have paid for the design and the builder goes broke or something you have the right to use those plans and continue building your house. Simeon It works as above. The standard HIA contract doesn’t have any clauses that refer to the licencing arrangement, implied or otherwise. These specifics would have to be captured in a special condition. Out of three contacts of my own (I checked last night), only one of them revokes the implied licence. It reads as such All intellectual property rights in the Plans and any other design in this contract are the sole property of XXXXXXXXX Pty Ltd and no implied licenses with respect to the intellectual property rights in the Plans or other designs are created whatsoever by this contract or otherwise. I assume in the event of a builder going bust, the copyrights and licensing rights move to the administrators, and they would allow for the “opening up” of the implied license for the homes covered under the insurance schemes. I suspect that the insurance scheme agreements likely have clauses in them that allow for this. There is no benefit to the administrators not allowing for this unless they have a buyer lined up for the business that can benefit from completing the homes themselves. In the event of a dispute with the builder where a client or a builder chose to terminate the contract, there may be more difficulty to carry on the works if implied license was revoked in a special condition clause regardless of DA. From what I’ve gathered, what’s likely to happen in the case of builder terminating the contract due to client breach – Builder would play hardball on the implied license and likely grind the client down for sport (resources allowing). In the event of termination of the contract by the client due to builder’s breach of contract, the client would have the upper hand in release of the implied license. I can’t imagine a court siding with a builder that is in breach trying to be an ahole as a last f u to the client. Where both mutually agree to end, my gut feel is that you would probably pay a small fee to the builder to release the implied license if it had been revoked. MooMoo83, sorry your ability to effectively use the internet extends only to the most basic of uses. All of the above was able to be gleaned from a few articles and case studies on Australian copyright and lisencing caselaw. Took about 25 mins to get across Bimclown, stop telling people to “own their own plans” because unless they are paying orders of magnitude of what “battlers” can even dream of affording by expressly buying the copyright, they don’t “own” anything. In fact the advice appears to be highly costly and full of pitfalls you didn’t even know about. Stay in your lane 😉 Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 59Apr 04, 2023 10:50 am StructuralBIMGuy For someone to truly assist, they need to be qualified Prove your qualification in public, otherwise any advice you give on this forum is as good a rubbish. StructuralBIMGuy Also, Ponzo isn't forth coming with qualifications and experience Neither are you. Youve been asked for something mor ethan mumbojumbo in your sig about a million times. No one has seen it. Ergo, dont take advice from a clow who cant do maths. StructuralBIMGuy He asks battlers to sign up blindly, with no design/engineering/data/proofs. You mean like 99% of every single home buyer this side of 1956? Good one. Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 60Apr 04, 2023 10:56 am StructuralBIMGuy Ashington Homes It is not until you work in the sausage making factory that is volume building They aren't buying a pound of sausages mate... it's their life saving and providing for their family well being... get it Advocating that they should sign up at any cost is BS You really have problems with Comprehension. where is the "advocating to sign up at any cost"? You may want to be carefull as the way you interpret things and paraphrase is bordering libel. Ashington is a respected member here with a professional profile who has been open about their experience and qualifications AND is visible and verifiable to all. So there is a reputation you could be damaging here by paraphrasing libelous statements. get it? get it? i suspect you don't. simple logic, simple maths and simlpe comprehension all seem to fail you at every turn. Its a wonder you can tie your shoelaces. On the other hand, you are a nobody here, with no proven qualifications and terrible reputation already with plenty of false statements able to be proven against with simple logic. go figure. I work with owner, he/she is my man on the ground and I instruct them when to visit the site and take photos and I have other tools in the bag. 4 15551 Looking for advice on whether this variation in tile colour is acceptable. The large tile on the left was used in my main bathroom renovation 1 year ago. My ensuite… 0 8632 yes it does, you've just not understood it. theres a difference. 4 5583 |