Browse Forums Building A New House 1 Apr 02, 2023 3:53 pm I have asked my builder to provide the trade quotes that underpin a variation he has asked for. The Builder seems to be pushing back, don't builders have to provide the trade quotes by law? In the past I have found errors contract documents from this builder which are thousands of dollars overcharging. Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 2Apr 03, 2023 8:23 am No, there is no such law unless it is a cost-plus contract. If you are under a standard industry lump sum building contract, then the builder may refuse to carry out the variation to the contract. If the builder chooses to give you the price of a requested variation, the builder is not obliged to disclose the details of how it is made up. Like it or lump it. The disclosure of pricing is only relevant to adjustments to PC and Provisional Sums under the contract or where the variation has arisen due to unforeseen conditions. Then, costs are disclosed so the builder's margin can be applied. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 3Apr 03, 2023 8:53 am KangarooBuilder The Builder seems to be pushing back, don't builders have to provide the trade quotes by law? I think you better go back to the new home salesman or who ever told you that. I also doubt you'll have any legal case against them if they mislead you. Buyer beware applies. Here What if extra work is needed? Sometimes, extra work or materials are needed due to unforeseen circumstances; you may be charged extra but the service provider should contact you before continuing with the work. BTW that's more reason to own your design, data and compare 3 builders estimates. LOL after you've signed up expect nothing for free Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 4Apr 03, 2023 9:11 am building-expert No, there is no such law unless it is a cost-plus contract. If you are under a standard industry lump sum building contract, then the builder may refuse to carry out the variation to the contract. If the builder chooses to give you the price of a requested variation, the builder is not obliged to disclose the details of how it is made up. Like it or lump it. The disclosure of pricing is only relevant to adjustments to PC and Provisional Sums under the contract or where the variation has arisen due to unforeseen conditions. Then, costs are disclosed so the builder's margin can be applied. thanks that is interesting, so a builder could put any mark up they want even 500% and there is no obligation for the builder to be reasonable and/or disclose the true input costs? Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 5Apr 03, 2023 9:35 am reverse back It's legal to sign clients up on Fake renderings, cheap initial prices, take a deposit and R!p into then with variations... most clients are non the wiser. Goodluck Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 6Apr 03, 2023 11:42 am Think about it. You willingly signed the contract with "this is what I want" then you come back, "no I want something else" The builder can say this is the price, tough luck. If you do not know what you want or you want the flexibility of making changes during construction then you need to sign a cost-plus contract. You cannot have it both ways. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 7Apr 03, 2023 1:12 pm StructuralBIMGuy BTW that's more reason to own your design, data and compare 3 builders estimates. LOL after you've signed up expect nothing for free lol this BS again. nothing stopping any builder whispering sweet nothings to you to get you to sign and whacking on another 50k on the the design you own, whos data you've had scrutinized and costed'right before starting the build "whoops costs went up"". Its the contract that gives the power to the builder to do so, not whether they own the design or not. Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 8Apr 03, 2023 2:05 pm ponzutwo StructuralBIMGuy BTW that's more reason to own your design, data and compare 3 builders estimates. LOL after you've signed up expect nothing for free lol this BS again. nothing stopping any builder whispering sweet nothings to you to get you to sign and whacking on another 50k on the the design you own, whos data you've had scrutinized and costed'right before starting the build "whoops costs went up"". Its the contract that gives the power to the builder to do so, not whether they own the design or not. If they try r!pping into you on your own design, engineering and data then walk out here A guide on price increases to home building contracts That's what most do, Of course you wouldn't know that... what is it you do again apart from troll posts and give poor advice? "However, the owner may be liable to compensate the builder for the reasonable costs incurred by the builder up to the date of the termination." There are no additional costs applicable if the owner walks out with their own drawings and engineering and tells the builder to PO ...get it Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 9Apr 03, 2023 2:34 pm StructuralBIMGuy That's what most do, Of course you wouldn't know that... what is it you do again apart from troll posts and give poor advice? The irony here is real. I've been quietly reading these forums for months... all you do is troll and giving poor advice. I don't think i've ever seen a constructive response from you. Just ramblings about getting 3D BIM models and getting legal advice/cancelling contracts before picking up the phone to your builder. Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 10Apr 03, 2023 2:42 pm StructuralBIMGuy ponzutwo StructuralBIMGuy BTW that's more reason to own your design, data and compare 3 builders estimates. LOL after you've signed up expect nothing for free lol this BS again. nothing stopping any builder whispering sweet nothings to you to get you to sign and whacking on another 50k on the the design you own, whos data you've had scrutinized and costed'right before starting the build "whoops costs went up"". Its the contract that gives the power to the builder to do so, not whether they own the design or not. If they try r!pping into you on your own design, engineering and data then walk out here A guide on price increases to home building contracts That's what most do, Of course you wouldn't know that... what is it you do again apart from troll posts and give poor advice? "However, the owner may be liable to compensate the builder for the reasonable costs incurred by the builder up to the date of the termination." There are no additional costs applicable if the owner walks out with their own drawings and engineering and tells the builder to PO ...get it you are one of the most dense people on this forum. under the building contract, regardless of whether you own the design or not, the builder can stooge you up to a percentage of the contract. The paragraph before the one you cherry picked highlights that, you coconut. whether you own the design or not, you can walk away from a contract under the SAME CIRCUMSTANCES and be held to the price increase under the SAME CIRCUMSTANCES whether you own the design or not. owning your design gives you no protections under the building contract ya Muppet. All you get to do is to take your design after youve spent all this time and effort and rigmarole with the first builder and start again, with a different builder, which doesn't guarantee you the same thing to not occur. At which point some time has already passed and the whole issue about yesterdays prices still bites you in the a$$. Are you seriously that stupid? Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 11Apr 03, 2023 2:42 pm Here "What can I do if I agreed to a price increase before I understood my rights under the Act? If a home owner agreed to a price increase due to increased costs of labour, materials or both which they now believe was unjustified or excessive they may still lodge a HBWC complaint with Building and Energy." [b]You need your own design, data for this ... LOL, don't expect the builder to help you out[/b] [b]hth[/b] Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 12Apr 03, 2023 2:44 pm OurBanyoHouse StructuralBIMGuy That's what most do, Of course you wouldn't know that... what is it you do again apart from troll posts and give poor advice? The irony here is real. I've been quietly reading these forums for months... all you do is troll and giving poor advice. I don't think i've ever seen a constructive response from you. Just ramblings about getting 3D BIM models and getting legal advice/cancelling contracts before picking up the phone to your builder. yep. he is a deadset moron Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 13Apr 03, 2023 2:44 pm ponzutwo owning your design gives you no protections under the building contract ya Muppet. All you get to do is to take your design after youve spent all this time and effort and rigmarole with the first builder and start again, with a different builder, which doesn't guarantee you the same thing to not occur. At which point some time has already passed and the whole issue about yesterdays prices still bites you in the a$$. better walking out with something and trying again than loose everything by using a builders copyright design.. get it Worse when your builder goes bankrupt you've got nothing Stanhope41 HOPE indeed! Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 14Apr 03, 2023 2:55 pm StructuralBIMGuy ponzutwo owning your design gives you no protections under the building contract ya Muppet. All you get to do is to take your design after youve spent all this time and effort and rigmarole with the first builder and start again, with a different builder, which doesn't guarantee you the same thing to not occur. At which point some time has already passed and the whole issue about yesterdays prices still bites you in the a$$. better walking out with something and trying again than loose everything by using a builders copyright design.. get it Worse when your builder goes bankrupt you've got nothing how does owning your own design protect you against a builder going bankrupt? it doesn't, does it? if your builder goes insolvent while you're mid build, you are in the same fking boat as the guy wo has a porter davis house, EXCEPT, GUESS WHAT? YOU PAID MORE UPFRONT FOR IT ....... FML, you are a clown Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 15Apr 03, 2023 3:56 pm Just adding my 2cents in this very interesting thread. There seems to be two conversations running so here is my opinion: 1. Variations - As per the advice from the building-expert, for a variation there is no requirement for the builder to disclose pricing. I am not sure about the HIA contract as we use the NSW Fairtrading contract which I softly caps the margin at 20% on variations. By softly I mean that it advises clients to question any margin exceeding that amount. We try to show our clients quotes for work if we have enough notice in the interest of transparency, but sometimes we find we are doing a site walk and the client asks for something to be done straight away so we give them a price guide and then do it, but most of the time we write to them first and then it is their decision. Additionally, there are times when the client asks for a variation that is a complete pain in the rear end, we have one who on several occasions has asked for work which we have completed and then changes their mind and wants the work pulled down. At that point it's not even about money. It is just painful, so next time you put a bigger price on it. For example the client chose a custom front door, we installed it and then they changed their mind and the door had to be thrown out. Now for 20% of the price of a new front door it isn't worth the time it takes to order a new one, organise trades, supervise and inspect etc. 2. Copyright on plans - I have had some pretty extensive legal advice on this subject in NSW, and essentially the plans sit with the land. So for instance if you buy a piece of land with a DA approval, you have every right to build that DA on your site, but you can't take those plans and build them elsewhere. So if you pay Builder A for approved drawings for your site and you decide not to use Builder A to build your home, you have the ability to use Builder B as you have already paid for a license to use those plans. If you are thinking of doing this, I would strongly suggest you get your own advice, but that is what I have in writing from a leading construction lawyer. Anyhow, happy building everyone Cheers Simeon Architectural Homes & Duplexes - specialising in custom designing homes to your budget Get a Free Onsite Consultation Today or send a PM for information, questions or advice. Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 16Apr 03, 2023 4:16 pm Simeon, thank you as always. I am particularly taken with the fact that even the advice about copyright that has been repeated here ad nauseum was wrong. (What you have written makes perfect sense - if you have endorsed plans that you paid for, you own the right to construct according to those plans at that location.) Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 17Apr 03, 2023 4:20 pm Ashington Homes 2. Copyright on plans - I have had some pretty extensive legal advice on this subject in NSW, and essentially the plans sit with the land. So for instance if you buy a piece of land with a DA approval, you have every right to build that DA on your site, but you can't take those plans and build them elsewhere. So if you pay Builder A for approved drawings for your site and you decide not to use Builder A to build your home, you have the ability to use Builder B as you have already paid for a license to use those plans. If you are thinking of doing this, I would strongly suggest you get your own advice, but that is what I have in writing from a leading construction lawyer. which is probably why there is never a challenge to the copyright of plans of half finished homes that are needing to be completed when building contract is terminated by client or builder, or the builder goes insolvent. but there is a third conversation going here. The idea that having your own plans, BIM, data yadda yadda yadda is in someway going to protect you from all the pitfalls of not having them (such as builder insolvency, price rises, poor workmanship, compliance issue etc.). Which is simply not true. Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 18Apr 03, 2023 4:23 pm SJT76 the fact that even the advice about copyright that has been repeated here ad nauseum was wrong its been only one person that's been carrying on about this rubbish. theyve been wrong about more stuff than theyve been right. Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 19Apr 03, 2023 4:43 pm ponzutwo Ashington Homes 2. Copyright on plans - I have had some pretty extensive legal advice on this subject in NSW, and essentially the plans sit with the land. So for instance if you buy a piece of land with a DA approval, you have every right to build that DA on your site, but you can't take those plans and build them elsewhere. So if you pay Builder A for approved drawings for your site and you decide not to use Builder A to build your home, you have the ability to use Builder B as you have already paid for a license to use those plans. If you are thinking of doing this, I would strongly suggest you get your own advice, but that is what I have in writing from a leading construction lawyer. which is probably why there is never a challenge to the copyright of plans of half finished homes that are needing to be completed when building contract is terminated by client or builder, or the builder goes insolvent. but there is a third conversation going here. The idea that having your own plans, BIM, data yadda yadda yadda is in someway going to protect you from all the pitfalls of not having them (such as builder insolvency, price rises, poor workmanship, compliance issue etc.). Which is simply not true. I couldn't agree with you more! My belief is that the threat of copyright on plans is a threat used to scare people from going to other builders and essentially trapping them. I have used BIM on commercial projects where co-ordination of services can be problematic, but for a simple house builds it is a waste of money and most trades who work on standard residential builds would have no idea how to even read those plans. They all just work around each other onsite to run their services. Simple 2d structural and architectural plans are sufficient. Architectural Homes & Duplexes - specialising in custom designing homes to your budget Get a Free Onsite Consultation Today or send a PM for information, questions or advice. Re: Trade quotes in Builder's variation 20Apr 03, 2023 5:24 pm Hey, @ashington Homes did you forget about your own home Build, Is this not some sort of 3D BIM Building & Developing A Duplex In North Ryde if so shouldn't clients know how much concrete is put into their own driveways if they provide their own drawings and data...or is that a trade secret? Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs I work with owner, he/she is my man on the ground and I instruct them when to visit the site and take photos and I have other tools in the bag. 4 15755 Sorry to hear. All the advice you are going to get on this one comes down to what your contract says and what variations are allowed and the mechanism for them. For… 1 1454 Looking for advice on whether this variation in tile colour is acceptable. The large tile on the left was used in my main bathroom renovation 1 year ago. My ensuite… 0 8710 |