National Tiles & Metricon homes - Drummy Tiles

rajat · Apr 20, 2021 11:09 pm

Hi, we built a Bordeaux 56 with Metricon Homes and selected “Corfu Marfil Glazed Polished” 750mmx750mm from National Tiles as the main indoor tile for downstairs.
We have found many, many tiles to be drummy. Metricon has sent several people to inspect it but has not fixed the issue. They have dragged it for over a year, but the issue is still not resolved.

A Metricon rep and a contractor from National Tiles turned up last week to inspect the issue. The Metricon rep diligently marked all the drummy areas and took photos but the contractor from National Tiles spent all the time defending the work (surprise,surprise) and claiming that the glue covers at least 60% of the tile so it is to Australian Standards. After the inspection, the National tiles contractor said that he will submit a report to National tiles.

The report that Metricon have received from National Tiles contractor states that the glue coverage is at least 80% in all except 4 or 5 tiles and so they meet the Australian standards. They will only fix 4 or 5 tiles out of the huge mess.
Somehow the 60% tile coverage that the contractor reported on site has jumped to 80%!!!

We are not sure what the actual glue coverage is. We just know that the tiles are drummy and the work is very unprofessional.

Has someone else had a similar experience? Does the builder have the right to refuse to fix the work if the glue covers 60%/80% of the tile even if the tile is drummy? Most of the drummy areas are near the edge of the tiles (not the centre).

We are looking to get a private inspector to give a report about the defect but would welcome any suggestion.

SejaeD · Apr 21, 2021 8:18 am

rajat

Hi, we built a Bordeaux 56 with Metricon Homes and selected “Corfu Marfil Glazed Polished” 750mmx750mm from National Tiles as the main indoor tile for downstairs.
We have found many, many tiles to be drummy. Metricon has sent several people to inspect it but has not fixed the issue. They have dragged it for over a year, but the issue is still not resolved.

A Metricon rep and a contractor from National Tiles turned up last week to inspect the issue. The Metricon rep diligently marked all the drummy areas and took photos but the contractor from National Tiles spent all the time defending the work (surprise,surprise) and claiming that the glue covers at least 60% of the tile so it is to Australian Standards. After the inspection, the National tiles contractor said that he will submit a report to National tiles.

The report that Metricon have received from National Tiles contractor states that the glue coverage is at least 80% in all except 4 or 5 tiles and so they meet the Australian standards. They will only fix 4 or 5 tiles out of the huge mess.
Somehow the 60% tile coverage that the contractor reported on site has jumped to 80%!!!

We are not sure what the actual glue coverage is. We just know that the tiles are drummy and the work is very unprofessional.

Has someone else had a similar experience? Does the builder have the right to refuse to fix the work if the glue covers 60%/80% of the tile even if the tile is drummy? Most of the drummy areas are near the edge of the tiles (not the centre).

We are looking to get a private inspector to give a report about the defect but would welcome any suggestion.

Dont Metricon offer a lifetime guarantee...or is that just on structure???

Quickly, not being a tile expert in terms of completely understanding the code of the top of my head ( and cutting corners by saving money on adhesive), I do know that tiles need to comply with as3598.1 & as3598.2 so maybe purchase a copy of these from SAI Global and see if this 60-80% coverage is an actual thing. This might help your argument.

You have to laugh a little at the ways though that big project home companies try and justify poor workmanship and save costs. Maybe I am naive but I always was under the impression that we aimed for 100% adhesive coverage. I am sure someone will tell me if I am wrong

Kippers01 · Apr 21, 2021 3:05 pm

AS3958.1 2007 says in section 5.4.7 Bonding "cases where more than 20% of the tile sounds hollow when tapped (drummy) would have to be considered suspect over the long term'. Section 5.6.4.2 Coverage requires 80% adhesive coverage. To argue with Metricon's BS you will need a tiling expert to inspect and report based on AS3958.1. If the tiling is deemed mostly defective ideally Metricon will be required to pay for the tiling to be redone, your furniture moving costs and alternative accomodation & meals etc. Metricon can 'backcharge' these costs to the tiler.

SejaeD · Apr 21, 2021 3:29 pm

Kippers01

AS3958.1 2007 says in section 5.4.7 Bonding "cases where more than 20% of the tile sounds hollow when tapped (drummy) would have to be considered suspect over the long term'. Section 5.6.4.2 Coverage requires 80% adhesive coverage. To argue with Metricon's BS you will need a tiling expert to inspect and report based on AS3958.1. If the tiling is deemed mostly defective ideally Metricon will be required to pay for the tiling to be redone, your furniture moving costs and alternative accomodation & meals etc. Metricon can 'backcharge' these costs to the tiler.

Thanks for adding that detail.

As with a lot of the Aus Standards there is a standard and then there is best practice. I called a few industry colleagues this morning asking their opinions on this and no one could believe that Metricon was trying to justify even 80% coverage.

100% all the way!

I would be getting the tiling expert to pull a few of them up to check just how much adhesive is on there.

You might want to contact Norfolk here on the forum for advice in fighting metricon. I believe he has had a lot of experience

rajat · Apr 21, 2021 4:34 pm

Thank you so much everyone! Will definitely fight it out and let you know the result

rajat · Apr 21, 2021 5:21 pm

Looks like we will have to get a private inspector to check the tiles as we just received a very disappointing reply from Metricon - see below

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caru · Apr 28, 2021 5:52 am

Hi there...i have the same experience where tiles around the house are drummy.

I agreed with the previous comment saying there is standard and there is good practice. Good contractor will aim for the later, however good contractors are either hard to find or fully booked out - i havent found any..

Our tiles contractor did agree to come and fix which also means creating mess and distraction, he can only do the fixes on the weekend, which will take months to fix all. I unfortunately have a lot of family commitments on the weekends so his solution clearly wont work.

I have my case with Fair Trading, and looking for financial compensation. Which as expected taking a long time, and my contractor preferred way to settle things. I believe he knows the case wont be going anywhere.

If I were you, I will try fair trading to see if you have a case. It does take time, it might not give you the result you want..but its free to lodge and worth a try

Apologise if my comment offended anyone

JohnDelaCruzLawyer · May 12, 2021 4:49 pm

rajat

Hi, we built a Bordeaux 56 with Metricon Homes and selected “Corfu Marfil Glazed Polished” 750mmx750mm from National Tiles as the main indoor tile for downstairs.
We have found many, many tiles to be drummy. Metricon has sent several people to inspect it but has not fixed the issue. They have dragged it for over a year, but the issue is still not resolved.

A Metricon rep and a contractor from National Tiles turned up last week to inspect the issue. The Metricon rep diligently marked all the drummy areas and took photos but the contractor from National Tiles spent all the time defending the work (surprise,surprise) and claiming that the glue covers at least 60% of the tile so it is to Australian Standards. After the inspection, the National tiles contractor said that he will submit a report to National tiles.

The report that Metricon have received from National Tiles contractor states that the glue coverage is at least 80% in all except 4 or 5 tiles and so they meet the Australian standards. They will only fix 4 or 5 tiles out of the huge mess.
Somehow the 60% tile coverage that the contractor reported on site has jumped to 80%!!!

We are not sure what the actual glue coverage is. We just know that the tiles are drummy and the work is very unprofessional.

Has someone else had a similar experience? Does the builder have the right to refuse to fix the work if the glue covers 60%/80% of the tile even if the tile is drummy? Most of the drummy areas are near the edge of the tiles (not the centre).

We are looking to get a private inspector to give a report about the defect but would welcome any suggestion.

You’re probably going to hate my answer, BUT, it depends.

Essentially, the question is whether or not the work is defective. If you know a tiler or builder then perhaps they can inspect the work for you. But if it is likely a defect then you’re on the right track. You need to engage an independent building expert and commission a report that shows why the work is defective with reference to the relevant Australian Standard.

I’m not sure that the Office of Fair Trading could help either since the defect would possibly require destructive testing. But I guess it doesn’t hurt to give them a call. You might also consider consulting a Construction Contract Lawyer who can give you specific legal advice.

Cheers
John Dela Cruz

rajat · May 12, 2021 6:29 pm

Thank you, John
We engaged Houspect to inspect the tiles and they found 22 tiles that did not meet the standard. They have provided a report confirming this, which I have forwarded to Metricon (and they have forwarded to National Tiles)

There are other tiles which are drummy but do not pass the ‘less than 80% glue coverage’ test.

But 22 tiles is a lot more than the 4 or 5 tiles that Metricon/National tiles is claiming.

EricHong · May 26, 2021 1:47 pm

rajat

Thank you, John
We engaged Houspect to inspect the tiles and they found 22 tiles that did not meet the standard. They have provided a report confirming this, which I have forwarded to Metricon (and they have forwarded to National Tiles)

There are other tiles which are drummy but do not pass the ‘less than 80% glue coverage’ test.

But 22 tiles is a lot more than the 4 or 5 tiles that Metricon/National tiles is claiming.

Hi there, we have a similar issue with Metricon about drummy tiles. Our build is a Vantage 48 with some modification in Sydney, which is couple weeks from hand over. When we visited the site, we found there were some tiles in a toilet being taken down from the wall; see the photo:
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Later on, Metricon put tiles back. I asked the site manager about this drummy tiles issue, he claimed Metricon followed the building codes (as expected from a site manager). We are concerned other tiles may have similar problems. Just wondering whether it's acceptable and worthwhile to engage an inspector (such as Houspect) for this issue. Any comment appreciated.

StructuralBIMGuy · May 26, 2021 2:23 pm

You are lucky if you have <50% effective glue cover over the complete tile.... potential Borderline failure
Just guessing any short term flexure or loading on the stud wall would pop the tiles off or crack the grout, do you have the glue brand, check the manufactures Data. ie coverage ,strength, etc.

I would definitely be asking for a maintenance extension period and then monitor. Start Building your case
OT, thanks for the photos, you can see how easily they have been removed a further concern
Goodluck

rajat · May 26, 2021 2:50 pm

EricHong

rajat

Thank you, John
We engaged Houspect to inspect the tiles and they found 22 tiles that did not meet the standard. They have provided a report confirming this, which I have forwarded to Metricon (and they have forwarded to National Tiles)

There are other tiles which are drummy but do not pass the ‘less than 80% glue coverage’ test.

But 22 tiles is a lot more than the 4 or 5 tiles that Metricon/National tiles is claiming.

Hi there, we have a similar issue with Metricon about drummy tiles. Our build is a Vantage 48 with some modification in Sydney, which is couple weeks from hand over. When we visited the site, we found there were some tiles in a toilet being taken down from the wall; see the photo:
Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅

Later on, Metricon put tiles back. I asked the site manager about this drummy tiles issue, he claimed Metricon followed the building codes (as expected from a site manager). We are concerned other tiles may have similar problems. Just wondering whether it's acceptable and worthwhile to engage an inspector (such as Houspect) for this issue. Any comment appreciated.

Getting report from Houspect helped me!! The report identified 22 tiles not meeting the code (unlike the 4 or 5 tiles that Metricon & National Tiles was claiming). Metricon & National Tiles have sent a tiler to fix all the tiles identified in the independent report.

EricHong · May 26, 2021 3:01 pm

StructuralBIMGuy

You are lucky if you have <50% effective glue cover over the complete tile.... potential Borderline failure
Just guessing any short term flexure or loading on the stud wall would pop the tiles off or crack the grout, do you have the glue brand, check the manufactures Data. ie coverage ,strength, etc.

I would definitely be asking for a maintenance extension period and then monitor. Start Building your case
OT, thanks for the photos, you can see how easily they have been removed a further concern
Goodluck

Thanks! It is a good idea to build the case for maintenance extension. What does it mean by "lucky if you have <50% effective glue cover over the complete tile.... potential Borderline failure" The site manager claimed that the glue coverage as shown in the photo was acceptable. It seemed that Metricon detected some defects and knocked the tiles down. Just not sure what would happen to other tiles.

EricHong · May 26, 2021 3:03 pm

rajat

EricHong

rajat

Thank you, John
We engaged Houspect to inspect the tiles and they found 22 tiles that did not meet the standard. They have provided a report confirming this, which I have forwarded to Metricon (and they have forwarded to National Tiles)

There are other tiles which are drummy but do not pass the ‘less than 80% glue coverage’ test.

But 22 tiles is a lot more than the 4 or 5 tiles that Metricon/National tiles is claiming.

Hi there, we have a similar issue with Metricon about drummy tiles. Our build is a Vantage 48 with some modification in Sydney, which is couple weeks from hand over. When we visited the site, we found there were some tiles in a toilet being taken down from the wall; see the photo:
Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅

Later on, Metricon put tiles back. I asked the site manager about this drummy tiles issue, he claimed Metricon followed the building codes (as expected from a site manager). We are concerned other tiles may have similar problems. Just wondering whether it's acceptable and worthwhile to engage an inspector (such as Houspect) for this issue. Any comment appreciated.

Getting report from Houspect helped me!! The report identified 22 tiles not meeting the code (unlike the 4 or 5 tiles that Metricon & National Tiles was claiming). Metricon & National Tiles have sent a tiler to fix all the tiles identified in the independent report.

Thansk rajat; I have contacted Houspect about this issue.

StructuralBIMGuy · May 26, 2021 5:15 pm

EricHong

Thanks! It is a good idea to build the case for maintenance extension. What does it mean by "lucky if you have <50% effective glue cover over the complete tile.... potential Borderline failure"

Everything we engineer has a safety factor of >2 so that the chances of failure is negligible , eg
If any fixings requires 2 screws / nails, apply glue complete surface and half the number/amount is applied then that is a highly probable failure and unacceptable. Furthermore, it would be non compliant as per the codes or manufacturers recommendations.
The builder can argue its an alternate solution, but that will need to be certified by engineers that design the Australian Standards.
I doubt any engineer would certify anything with 50 % less capacity.

EricHong

The site manager claimed that the glue coverage as shown in the photo was acceptable.

Request his Qualifications, experience and calculations for future reference

EricHong

It seemed that Metricon detected some defects and knocked the tiles down. Just not sure what would happen to other tiles.

I very much doubt that tiler will ever do work for them again... but that does not help you out now.
As you have pointed out what are the chances of all the tiling being defective? Greater than Half? (humour)
Then it would be reasonable to request an extension of the maintenance period just in case?

EricHong · May 28, 2021 6:17 pm

StructuralBIMGuy

EricHong

Thanks! It is a good idea to build the case for maintenance extension. What does it mean by "lucky if you have <50% effective glue cover over the complete tile.... potential Borderline failure"

Everything we engineer has a safety factor of >2 so that the chances of failure is negligible , eg
If any fixings requires 2 screws / nails, apply glue complete surface and half the number/amount is applied then that is a highly probable failure and unacceptable. Furthermore, it would be non compliant as per the codes or manufacturers recommendations.
The builder can argue its an alternate solution, but that will need to be certified by engineers that design the Australian Standards.
I doubt any engineer would certify anything with 50 % less capacity.

EricHong

The site manager claimed that the glue coverage as shown in the photo was acceptable.

Request his Qualifications, experience and calculations for future reference

EricHong

It seemed that Metricon detected some defects and knocked the tiles down. Just not sure what would happen to other tiles.

I very much doubt that tiler will ever do work for them again... but that does not help you out now.
As you have pointed out what are the chances of all the tiling being defective? Greater than Half? (humour)
Then it would be reasonable to request an extension of the maintenance period just in case?

Thanks for the detailed comments! Metricon's pre-site and construction teams have been disappointing. They did well in marketing; no wonder the guy from marketing visited Metricon quite a few times recently.

EricHong · May 28, 2021 6:25 pm

rajat

Getting report from Houspect helped me!! The report identified 22 tiles not meeting the code (unlike the 4 or 5 tiles that Metricon & National Tiles was claiming). Metricon & National Tiles have sent a tiler to fix all the tiles identified in the independent report.

Hi rajat, do you mind if asking a question about the storage room under the staircase. The site manage claimed that it's Metricon's practice to leave the bottom of the staircase unsheeted, as shown in the photo below. Is this the same with your build. Really appreciated!
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rajat · May 28, 2021 7:50 pm

EricHong

rajat

Getting report from Houspect helped me!! The report identified 22 tiles not meeting the code (unlike the 4 or 5 tiles that Metricon & National Tiles was claiming). Metricon & National Tiles have sent a tiler to fix all the tiles identified in the independent report.

Hi rajat, do you mind if asking a question about the storage room under the staircase. The site manage claimed that it's Metricon's practice to leave the bottom of the staircase unsheeted, as shown in the photo below. Is this the same with your build. Really appreciated!
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The area under the stairs is the same at our house. It doesn’t bother us as we just use it for storage (also, that’s where we keep Harry Potter)

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EricHong · May 28, 2021 10:11 pm

rajat

EricHong

rajat

Getting report from Houspect helped me!! The report identified 22 tiles not meeting the code (unlike the 4 or 5 tiles that Metricon & National Tiles was claiming). Metricon & National Tiles have sent a tiler to fix all the tiles identified in the independent report.

Hi rajat, do you mind if asking a question about the storage room under the staircase. The site manage claimed that it's Metricon's practice to leave the bottom of the staircase unsheeted, as shown in the photo below. Is this the same with your build. Really appreciated!
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The area under the stairs is the same at our house. It doesn’t bother us as we just use it for storage (also, that’s where we keep Harry Potter)

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Thanks, rajat. Harry Potter could be happier if Metricon sheeted the bottom of the staircase though

StructuralBIMGuy · May 29, 2021 9:35 am

We already have established that structural members, good workmanship, building standards,etc require a min of 2 Fixings
what I'm seeing is Scrap and cracked timber held together by one nail?
Ask them to specifically include the stairs and extension to the warranty period should it start creaking later.
odds on they'll be back to put in another nail

OT, "Typically all show above the stairs and no/poor substance below" (engineering humour)
when reading engineering drawings they are viewed from the beneath looking up , then connect the nodes (dots) as to how the loads are transferred to the ground/supported , on the other hand architectural plans are viewed from above, they don't care (squat) how its supported...which is more important?
Cheers
Chris