2 Storey Build Perth, Custom Vs Project

Jul_Kir · Feb 24, 2015 12:57 pm

Hi,

First of I apologise for such a long first post.

After months of trawling the internet and these forums my wife and I decided to travel to Perth last weekend in an attempt to try to clarify our home build in Baldivis. We are currently in Melbourne but moving back to Perth in a couple of years, so thought we might start the process now.

Background
So the start of the process began when we purchased our corner block of land opposite a park in an attempt to minimise the feeling of living on top of our neighbors.

Anyway before we left we had decided we wanted to build a 2 storey house to minimise the house footprint to allow for a decent size pool and a decent size house as well as some sort of yard for our 2 kids albeit cricket and footy can be played in the park over the road. Our budget for this Project is 100% finished is 700K inc pools, landscaping, lights, blinds etc. However I don't want to spend this unless its exactly what I want.

Also we have never actually built before, so the process is already becoming daunting.

Issues / Problem
We have narrowed down our selections down to :
- HGWA Metropolitan, Very rough quote from sale rep $500K and unsure if they can achieve the style we want as they said they haven't done one like it.

- Ultimate Homes The Chardonnay, As displayed $475K but we would probably want $30K worth of Mods.

- Peter Stannard The Cape Mill, $505K with approx 50K worth of mods . Really Close in style to what we want.

- A full Custom Build with Riverstone, $700K and reassured that it would inc everything eg. turn key. Also I have the comfort knowing that they can deliver the exact style of home we want as it was like their display and previous work.

Anyway So on paper it seems that the first 3 project builds are significantly cheaper however when I got home I put all in excel to compare and by the time I allowed for mods, lighting, flooring, pools, landscaping, siteworks, blinds etc

They came in at (approx)
- HGWA $625K
- Ultimate homes $670K
- Peter Stannard $720K
- Riverstone $700K

Now this completely baffled me ..... because I thought the custom route would be way to pricey, but in comparison its not too bad and I know that they can deliver exactly what we want.

Riverstone also had the benefit of
- a guareenteed completion date (given once the plans are drawn and they know the complexity of the build), and even stipulates in the contract that they will pay your rent if it goes past the date.
- able to completely redesign as many times as we want even to the extent of changing to a single storey if our budget takes a hit etc therefore meaning we dont need to start all over again.
- able to utilize the block better by building a sort of L shaped house to live to the corner side and use park views blah blah rather than just having to position a square box like the others.

In other words seems to good to be true haha.

So our dilemma is
Has anyone had any experience with any of these builders, and house designs ??
How much do I really need to allow for lights, blinds, carpets, timber flooring, site works etc ??
Has anyone got experience with a full custom build in WA ??

Or just any other General Advice that you may wish to share, we are generally open to any comments and constructive criticism.

Again I apologise for the lengthy post

Cheers

Beazley77 · Feb 24, 2015 1:36 pm

Id say you'll find on here a lot of people building with HGWA and some extremely upset with the service/quality and timeframes they have received.

Riverstone build lovely homes and in my mind are a builder you associate with that price point where as I wouldn't personally associated HGWA with that sort of spend... Plus when you read some peoples threads, they seem very limiting in allowing changes after Contract signed etc. I'd definitely be wanting some flexibility, liquidated damages/rent payment clause, for that kind of spend. Peter Stannard is another builder i'd associate with houses in that price point.

Good luck, sounds exciting to have that kind of money to spend! :-)

icywater · Feb 24, 2015 3:09 pm

Hi, I am building a double storey with Atrium Home. My budget isn't as high as yours. They design the house to my need and budget. They have some really nice homes.

Dukecaddy · Feb 25, 2015 3:15 pm

Ultimate homes, as far as I'm aware, are the budget division of Peter Stannard Homes, or at the least a spin off from PSH. Riverstone appear to be a fairly high end builder, there would also be many other small custom builders that would suit this price range. For the budget you have I would be going the custom route, the only project home builder I would consider would be Webb & Brown-Neaves.

Jul_Kir · Feb 26, 2015 6:51 am

thanks for the replies

that's right ultimate is a division of Peter Stannard, but we liked the layout of the ultimate display (the chardonnay).

$700K is my 100% complete budget, so when I add in all the extras I end looking at builds around the low $500K's probably $530K max.

When we had a look at Webb Brown & Neaves it seemed they only had a handful of options in our price range, and the included spec was very disappointing for the money. However we do like some of their homes..... looked through the Montauk Display and the wife fell in love, pity about the price.

As for Riverstone after speaking to them they actually said they could put our build through another one of their companies "Edge" which would give us more for our money. The staff are all the same as Riverstone its just some of the minor benefits of Riverstone that are limited, like only a handful of interior design consults with Edge versus unlimited with Riverstone etc nothing that should effect the build itself.

StructuralBIMGuy · Feb 26, 2015 8:38 am

MY advice is pick a display home or builder that builds, engineers and prices to a standard.
You will be away in melbourne during the build, I would be looking for someone qualified who will be looking after your best interests while you are away and basically that's not the New Home Salesperson

BTW how big (M2) is your house?

Jul_Kir · Feb 26, 2015 10:20 am

thanks StructuralBIMGuy good advice, that leads me more to Riverstone /Edge as they said they tend towards commercial end products eg sliding door systems etc and for a higher end engineering company (not to sure why there would be a difference in engineering specs, I thought they would all be using the same span tables)

The house we are aiming for is somewhere between 280-320 m2 of internal living space. We are chasing a higher end finish over size.

icywater · Feb 26, 2015 10:35 am

WEB Brown is so expensive. If you have the plan and the front elevation that you like, take that the builder that you think you can trust. Ask them to design a house base on that for a budget that you set. You can always make changes to the plan until you happy with it. Do not let the sale person ask you to pay $1000 for them to design a house.

StructuralBIMGuy · Feb 26, 2015 11:07 am

Jul_Kir

.... a higher end engineering company (not to sure why there would be a difference in engineering specs, I thought they would all be using the same span tables)

Some builders are moving to light frame and composite construction upstairs.
eg concrete trusses with 1C slabs, Concrete 2c Slabs & 3c slabs for larger suspended structures upstairs.
Site works can also be an issue affecting, topography (sloping blocks), retaining walls, even pools.

Jul_Kir

The house we are aiming for is somewhere between 280-320 m2 of internal living space. We are chasing a higher end finish over size.

If you have a rough Sketch/idea of what you want
I would recommend giving it to 3 builders and asking for 3 quotes including prelim engineering (Not PS's).
Unfortunately, the system is such that after you pay a deposit the builder will then firm up the contract price by that time you will feel locked in...They will tell you its not the salesmans job to make promises he is not the designer/engineer.
Then there is the problem of who looks after the build when you arent here, LOL, Not the Salesperson?... and thats not always the site supervisor either as a lot of posts here on home one will bear testiment to (shows).
Include Riverstone as one of your prefered builders and make them work hard at the prelim stage, if they know they are the only ones quoting on their design ..how do you know its value for money.Sorry for the rant
If you PM me I have a check list on the engineering..that I know some builders hate (me) giving out to clients. hth

StructuralBIMGuy · Feb 26, 2015 11:11 am

icywater

...... If you have the plan and the front elevation that you like, take that the builder that you think you can trust. Ask them to design a house base on that for a budget that you set. You can always make changes to the plan until you happy with it. Do not let the sale person ask you to pay $1000 for them to design a house.

Great advice....
Its strange that clients are prepared to give a salesman $1000...who guarantees absolutely nothing..
Yet LOL, they wont hire an engineer.. to deal with the engineering up front..when pricing matters.

icywater · Feb 26, 2015 11:23 am

StructuralBIMGuy

Great advice....
Its strange that clients are prepared to give a salesman $1000...who guarantees absolutely nothing..
Yet LOL, they wont hire an engineer.. to deal with the engineering up front..when pricing matters.

That was what this sale person wanted me to do lol. He wanted us to pay $1000 so that he can design the plan for us. He called loyalty fee. It will be paid back if I continuous to go on and build the house. For me I will not pay anything until I am happy with.

Jays · Feb 26, 2015 11:23 am

Based on these costs be careful not to over capitalise, unless your not that focused on equity or resale and looking at lifestyle.

Dukecaddy · Feb 26, 2015 12:41 pm

Jays

Based on these costs be careful not to over capitalise, unless your not that focused on equity or resale and looking at lifestyle.

Agreed, having a quick look at Baldivis appears to show two storey houses at below the $900k mark. So it'll take you a while before the market catches up to what you'd be spending on house+land.

archetto · Feb 26, 2015 2:34 pm

Take a drive around baldivis when you're here next (or use streetview) and have a look at the style of 2 storey homes built in the area, from what i've seen the limited times i've been there, there are more Ben Trager Homes, 101 Residential, Broadway homes etc style 2 storeys built there than Riverstone style builders. With the cost of land plus the house at $700k you would already be at $900K+

You can build a top of the range Ben Trager etc for $500-$600K, possibly even less as their displays start at $350-$450K

Ps. You want to spend $700K max inc pool etc however Riverstone is already at $700K but I would imagine that wouldn't include the pool?

Jul_Kir · Feb 27, 2015 7:15 am

$700K with riverstone is to be 100% turnkey and include everything even the pool, I repeatedly told them that and was reassured that it was possible. So hopefully they listen.

I took a drive around baldivis last weekend and I agree that there are some nice houses but mostly single story but the market definitely doesn't seem to have that $900K plus price tag where we are going to end up...... this is a massive concern for me, but we are planning on stay there for a long time to raise our kids there etc and I guess someone has to be the first one. Regardless this is already causing a few sleepless nights.

StructuralBIMGuy : at our meeting with Riverstone he mentioned that they are using 3c slabs and alot of the time they are going up to 4c slabs now.

Icywater: They want $3000 to start the process. But this is not just for one design. It is for a continual back and forth process for as long as it takes to get the design exactly as we want it. Every design revision comes with floorplans, elevations , 3d images, and full costings including pictures of the allowed fittings and fixtures. Their intention is to have it fully priced before getting to prestart so there is no need for any variations, even though they don't charge for variations they don't want clients to have to do them. This seemed like a pretty decent deal for me, a cheap architect in way.

I see the $3000 as peace of mind that I will know what I am getting before going to prestart. Rather than spending $500K with another builder and then completely blowing the budget with variations at prestart or having to settle for things I don't really want just to keep it on budget, and then be commited to a house I wont be 100% happy with.

StructuralBIMGuy · Feb 27, 2015 9:22 am

Jul_Kir

StructuralBIMGuy : at our meeting with Riverstone he mentioned that they are using 3c slabs and alot of the time they are going up to 4c slabs now.

That statement should send out alarm bells to engineers why...This illustrates my point precisely (The above is salesperson talk) why anyone would go 4c for a residential slab is beyond me, the slab would be so heavy (with a concrete self weight of 860kg m2, that is 10 x the weight of an average person that it is suppose to support) it would be very inefficient and cost you a fortune...and you wont find that out until its too late after planning?.
Also,I doubt an engineer would recommend a 4c residential slab as your internal walls, support brickwork, footings etc would also have to be upgraded considerably...again at more cost to you
A "cheap architect" knows nothing about engineering and that generally gives the builder an out clause later on to increase the price...Beware

Jul_Kir · Feb 27, 2015 9:51 am

cool thats the sort of thing I would hopefully be finding out though before signing off on the design. I hope (and will need to clarify) if these engineering specs are already costed into the design when I see it, as part of the $3000 they want.

StructuralBIMGuy · Feb 27, 2015 9:59 am

Jul_Kir

cool thats the sort of thing I would hopefully be finding out though before signing off on the design. I hope (and will need to clarify) if these engineering specs are already costed into the design when I see it, as part of the $3000 they want.

I would hope so to...

archetto · Feb 27, 2015 11:13 am

I scrolled through the hourses for sale in Baldivis at the moment and I got to page 8 and had only seen 1 double storey for sale and it was an older home. But as blocks become smaller around there, people won't have a choice but to go double storey.

Leksie5000 · Feb 27, 2015 12:53 pm

Of course you don't always have to go with a builder/drafter. You could select a building designer, architect or draftsperson to complete your plans. Once done, you can then 'shop' them to different builders. That way you get to choose the best person to create your vision; and get competitive tenders.

We were going with a company that did design and build. It is certainly more straightforward in between a project build and going completely custom. But we found the quote for the design was too high then of course we didn't have copyright to shop it about. We have since paid to have our own plans drawn.