Browse Forums Building A New House Re: Westminster Homes - The official thread 83Apr 15, 2009 5:11 pm Thanks photogirl and torourke for your comments. I have checked my contract and I have 'Contract Works Material Damage and Public LIability insurance' with Brit Insurance Holdings PLC. It states that the Contract works is covered until the property insured has been formally accepted by the owner as completed. I assume this means handover. The public liability says from Date of contract signing until the property insured has been formally accepted by the owner as completed, or 30 June 2009 whichever is earlier. This has me worried as I wouldn't hold my breath on it being handed over by 30 June. Re: Westminster Homes - The official thread 84Apr 15, 2009 5:47 pm Hi Marlton an Torourke It may be worth ringing the insurance company (Brit) and just finding out from them what may happen if the builder became insolvent and how you could continue to cover yourself. With any luck the builder will continue to trade (I've got fingers crossed that this happens) and they should just extend the period of insurance. If they don't continue to trade, you need to keep on everyone possible to make sure you have that insurance. It may be worth speaking to the administrators and bringing this to their attention as they might not be aware of it and even putting a bit of pressure on them to find out what will happen with it. Torourke, it just shows how much risk there is without that insurance. And even more really because if anything happens to the house there's nothing you can do to recover the monies. For us we are building in an established area, so we had neighbours keeping an eye out, but I was so stressed during those 6 months until we got a new builders. Could imagine in a new estate where there may be very few people around that the risk would be even higher unfortunately. Risk is risk though so keep on them Marlton to make sure you are covered. Good thing is you are aware of it and at least have the insurance for a couple more months (or hopefully until your build is complete if everything works out with the builder). Re: Westminster Homes - The official thread 85Apr 15, 2009 6:39 pm You do need to get a complete copy of the Contract Works and Public Liability wording to review it in detail.Insurers often put in "insolvency or administration" clauses that let them avoid liability."Small print" I would strongly recommend that you ask the administrator to put it in writing that your site is covered for theft/fire etc and provide you with a copy of the policy coverage and a claim form just in case. In insolvency situations it is not uncommon for installed items and materials to go walkies. Im pretty sure normal Home and Contents policies do not cover these situations! You could also contact the Home warranty insurer and ask if they can provide in writing confirmation that any replacement insurance coverage taken out to protect the site is a claimable item. Re: Westminster Homes - The official thread 86Apr 15, 2009 6:47 pm marlton Thanks photogirl and torourke for your comments. I have checked my contract and I have 'Contract Works Material Damage and Public LIability insurance' with Brit Insurance Holdings PLC. It states that the Contract works is covered until the property insured has been formally accepted by the owner as completed. I assume this means handover. The public liability says from Date of contract signing until the property insured has been formally accepted by the owner as completed, or 30 June 2009 whichever is earlier. This has me worried as I wouldn't hold my breath on it being handed over by 30 June. The other thing to check is who the local australian insurance broker for this british company is.......Contact them directly and ask for the policy wording plus a claim form just in case. let me know if you hit any roadblocks Re: Westminster Homes - The official thread 87Apr 15, 2009 8:54 pm joltinjoe You could also contact the Home warranty insurer and ask if they can provide in writing confirmation that any replacement insurance coverage taken out to protect the site is a claimable item. If you do decide to try this and get confirmation from them, would appreciate it if you would let me know the outcome. They wouldn't do this for us, it's been a big issue. Re: Westminster Homes - The official thread 88Apr 15, 2009 9:37 pm photogirl joltinjoe You could also contact the Home warranty insurer and ask if they can provide in writing confirmation that any replacement insurance coverage taken out to protect the site is a claimable item. If you do decide to try this and get confirmation from them, would appreciate it if you would let me know the outcome. They wouldn't do this for us, it's been a big issue. Try quoting them from their own insurance policy SECTION 4 - THE COVER A. Work by Contractors 4.1 We agree to cover You if the Contractor is Dead, Disappears or becomes Insolvent during the period of insurance, subject to the terms, conditions and exclusions of this policy, if You suffer loss or damage: (a) resulting from the non-completion by the Contractor of Residential Building Work referred to in the Insurable Residential Building Contract because of the Insolvency, Death or disappearance of the Contractor; or (b) resulting from a breach by the Contractor of a Statutory Warranty, being loss or damage in respect of which You cannot recover compensation from the Contractor or have the Contractor rectify because of the Insolvency, Death or Disappearance of the Contractor; or (c) resulting from faulty design only where that design was provided by the Contractor being loss or damage in respect of which You cannot recover compensation from the Contractor or have the Contractor rectify because of the Insolvency, Death or Disappearance of the Contractor; or (d) resulting from the non-completion by the Contractor of the Residential Building Work referred to in the Insurable Residential Building Work Contract because of early termination of the Insurable Residential Building Work Contract because of the Contractor’s wrongful failure or refusal to complete the Residential Building Work, being loss or damage in respect of which You cannot recover compensation from the Contractor because of the Insolvency, Death or Disappearance of the Contractor; or (e) related to the costs of alternative accommodation and removal and storage costs that are reasonably and necessarily incurred as a result of an event referred to in Section 4.1 (a) and/or (b) of the policy; (f) resulting from the loss of a deposit or loss of any progress payment specified under the relevant Insurable Residential Building Work Contract as a result of an event referred to in Section 4.1 (a) and/or (b) of the policy; or (g) subject to Section 4.4(a) any legal or other reasonable costs incurred by You in seeking to recover compensation from the Contractor for loss or damage or in taking action to rectify the loss or damage.B. ALSO be careful of Clause in Section 5 (g) Your failure to take reasonable and timely action to minimise the damage IF YOU DONT GET ALTERNATIVE INSURANCE AND THERE IS THEFT THEY MAY TRY AND SAY ITS NOT COVERED DUE TO YOUR FAILURE TO MITIGATE Re: Westminster Homes - The official thread 89Apr 15, 2009 10:21 pm joltinjoe The other thing to check is who the local australian insurance broker for this british company is.......Contact them directly and ask for the policy wording plus a claim form just in case. let me know if you hit any roadblocks Thanks again, The Australian appointed broker for Brit Insurance holdings PLC is Willis Australia Ltd at Level 8, 2 Market St, Sydney. I have just drafted an email to the administrator to get all policy documents for the insurances and to get their confirmation that the site is covered against theft and vandalism. Will let you know the outcome. Re: Westminster Homes - The official thread 90Apr 16, 2009 6:45 pm hi all, We are also building or should I say were building with westminster. We were in attendance at the meeting and have had no answers and are flying blind atm sooo glad we've now found away 2 b in contact with others that r going through or have been through this nightmare (dont feel so alone now lol) we should have had our house completed some time last year and r not surprised at the fact they r were they r! we actually got a heads up about it about 3weeks b4 they went into admin.(not by the company itself) We have had alot of different problems every step of the way and wouldnt recommend anyone build with them regardless of whats currently going on. just wanted 2 say hi and get 2 no u all thnx. fee p.s. i was the one who told David Mansfeild that "he doesnt no how it feels as he gets 2 go 2 his home with his family every night" at the meeting for those of u who were thr. Re: Westminster Homes - The official thread 91Apr 16, 2009 6:52 pm Hi Joltinjoe Thanks for that info, I am sure it will greatly assist those currently dealing with this issue, but you know what, I actually think that the wording for the Vic policy is different to the wording for the NSW Policy. It looks like that state jurisdiction thing takes away our opportunity to claim. I may be reading it wrong, I've gone crosseyed going over this document again and again in the last few months, but they tie it back in to the 20%. So if you get the whole 20% because you need it to complete the house, then that doesn't leave any further money for anything other than defects, if I'm reading it right, every possibility I am not, it would be good if I wasn't. It seems that the NSW policy doesn't necessarily tie those other claims such as loss into the 20%, so allowing access to the extra money for things other than defects. Re: Westminster Homes - The official thread 92Apr 16, 2009 9:42 pm My understanding of the 20% is that the insurance pays the whole contract price PLUS 20% extra that will be needed to get another builder to take over the job. I may be wrong though. Judie Re: Westminster Homes - The official thread 93Apr 16, 2009 10:11 pm Hi Judie It does get a bit confusing, but having gone down this road I can pass on some knowledge about it. The insurance pays up to 20% of the total contract price for incomplete works, not the total contract price. So as an example if your house cost $200,000 to build, then they would allocate $40,000 for incomplete works (20% of the total contract price). So if your builder becomes insolvent and you had already paid $100,000 in progress payments, and a new builder comes in and says it will cost another $120,000 to complete the house, you would still have to pay the remaining $100,000 (because you had signed a contract for $200,000 and you have to pay the contract price) and the insurance would pay the $20,000. If however a new builder comes in and says it will cost $160,000 to complete the house, you would be out of pocket $20,000, because the maximum you could claim in incomplete works would be $40,000. The remaining insurance money is for defects. So if your insurance policy is for $200,000 then that would leave $160,000 for defects. Hope this clears it up a bit. Re: Westminster Homes - The official thread 94Apr 16, 2009 10:35 pm photogirl Hi Judie It does get a bit confusing, but having gone down this road I can pass on some knowledge about it. The insurance pays up to 20% of the total contract price, not the total contract price. So as an example if your house cost $200,000 to build, then they would allocate $40,000 for incomplete works (20% of the total contract price). So if your builder becomes insolvent and you had already paid $100,000 in progress payments, and a new builder comes in and says it will cost another $120,000 to complete the house, you would still have to pay the remaining $100,000 (because you had signed a contract for $200,000 and you have to pay the contract price) and the insurance would pay the $20,000. If however a new builder comes in and says it will cost $160,000 to complete the house, you would be out of pocket $20,000, because the maximum you could claim in incomplete works would be $40,000. The remaining insurance money is for defects. So if your insurance policy is for $200,000 then that would leave $160,000 for defects. Hope this clears it up a bit. Hi Photogirl, Thats an excellent explanation of how the insurance works. Thankyou ! I feel better knowing that there is some extra amount over the contract sum that can be used. I have just done calculations on the remaining progress claims in my contract vs the amount of work left to be done and unfortunately the amount of work left to be done well and truly exceeds the progress claims left . I am unsure as to how much (very hard to put a value on outstanding electrical/plumbing fix outs etc) but I am talking tens of thousands. Thankyou also to Joltinjoe for the insurance info. I have also been told by people who have dealt with companies in voluntary adminstration that if they are given the oppoturtunity to 'trade out' they will go straight to their larger clients who have large progress claims due and focus on these jobs to get cash in the door. The smaller clients can often be forgotten as there is little or no money left in the deal - in my case, they have already taken their profit in the earlier progress claims....and left a stack of unpaid contracters in their wake. I will not be happy if my site sits there for the next 6 months untouched, whilst Westminster are 'trading out' of their situation with their other clients. Has anyone experienced this sort of situation before ? Re: Westminster Homes - The official thread 95Apr 16, 2009 10:37 pm Judie My understanding of the 20% is that the insurance pays the whole contract price PLUS 20% extra that will be needed to get another builder to take over the job. I may be wrong though. Judie The owner is responsible for the balance remaining on the contract. If there is a shortfall then the insurer will provide up to 20% of the contract value (inclusive of agreed variations) to be used to complete the home. Example: If the shortfall to complete is an additional 30% then the owner has to come up with the extra 10%. Any claim you make should be split into defective works and non completed component items to ensure that you do not tag defective works as incompleted items.......and unneccessarily eat into the 20% non completion section. suggested Claim Item order (Maximum $300K under policy) -Defective Works (get a building consultant in!) -Alternative (or extension to) Accommodation costs -Additional Storage Costs -Legal Costs incurred in trying to recover loss from the builder -Costs incurred in copying documents for the claim and/or obtaining independant assessment from a building consultant -Non Completed stages of the work as per contract ***Restricted to 20% of the 20% of the contract value (inclusive of agreed variations)******* Re: Westminster Homes - The official thread 96Apr 16, 2009 10:50 pm I have also been told by people who have dealt with companies in voluntary adminstration that if they are given the oppoturtunity to 'trade out' they will go straight to their larger clients who have large progress claims due and focus on these jobs to get cash in the door. The smaller clients can often be forgotten as there is little or no money left in the deal - in my case, they have already taken their profit in the earlier progress claims....and left a stack of unpaid contracters in their wake. I will not be happy if my site sits there for the next 6 months untouched, whilst Westminster are 'trading out' of their situation with their other clients. Has anyone experienced this sort of situation before ?[/quote] Yes its common. Even if they try to trade on via a Deed of Company arrangement then it still is an act of insolvency and the insurance company is liable. Get some legal advice as to whether you should terminate the contract and make a claim. Then talk to the insurer and advise them that you are thinking of terminating the contract due to the insolvency and that you are going to make a claim on them and would like to know how soon they will appoint a new builder to complete. Specify that alternative accommodation costs etc are also now running from the date of the insolvency. The insurer can always do a deal with the original builder to get cracking on your job and to bill the insurer for any shortfall up to the 20%..... Re: Westminster Homes - The official thread 97Apr 16, 2009 10:51 pm Quote: I have just done calculations on the remaining progress claims in my contract vs the amount of work left to be done and unfortunately the amount of work left to be done well and truly exceeds the progress claims left . I am unsure as to how much (very hard to put a value on outstanding electrical/plumbing fix outs etc) but I am talking tens of thousands. And that's the thing that is really annoying about this insurance. Progress payments allow for the builder to do some future purchasing, so even though you may be at lock up and paid the progress payment up to that stage, in reality costs have been built in for buying items past lock up. So you have really paid for more than what you have (I don't have an issue with that because I realise that builders need money to make purchases and this system work fine as long as the builder is not in trouble). However, based on how progress payments work, the insurance is never going to cover you for incomplete works. Added to that is the fact the volume builders don't take on incomplete houses, so you have to get a custom builder. Their costs are higher. I know that since our claim the insurance policies have gone from $200,000 to $300,000, but I think they also need to review the 20% because that hasn't changed, it really doesn't allow the cover needed to complete a house if a builder becomes insolvent. Re: Westminster Homes - The official thread 98Apr 16, 2009 11:17 pm photogirl Quote: I have just done calculations on the remaining progress claims in my contract vs the amount of work left to be done and unfortunately the amount of work left to be done well and truly exceeds the progress claims left . I am unsure as to how much (very hard to put a value on outstanding electrical/plumbing fix outs etc) but I am talking tens of thousands. And that's the thing that is really annoying about this insurance. Progress payments allow for the builder to do some future purchasing, so even though you may be at lock up and paid the progress payment up to that stage, in reality costs have been built in for buying items past lock up. So you have really paid for more than what you have (I don't have an issue with that because I realise that builders need money to make purchases and this system work fine as long as the builder is not in trouble). However, based on how progress payments work, the insurance is never going to cover you for incomplete works. Added to that is the fact the volume builders don't take on incomplete houses, so you have to get a custom builder. Their costs are higher. I know that since our claim the insurance policies have gone from $200,000 to $300,000, but I think they also need to review the 20% because that hasn't changed, it really doesn't allow the cover needed to complete a house if a builder becomes insolvent. NSW building contracts are generally front end loaded in favour of the builder as the Act doesnt specify the progress payment stages as do many of the other States. some contracts have the builder receiving 40% at slab stage...which is generally only about 10-15% of the construction..... its a complete rort that the NSW goverenment needs to rectify and fast. Re: Westminster Homes - The official thread 99Apr 16, 2009 11:47 pm and also on the note of the progress payments and what thr for, on our contract its non-specific there just general area of works and alot is left out ie: rainwater tanks, hydrollics ect.. nor do they change or rectify them with tender changes that occur through out building works eg: thngs that have been taken out such as flooring ect but they were fast 2 claim against us when the prices were ova or extra items added none of it adds up and makes it very hard 2 no exactly what is owed to us not 2 mention defective or incomplete works as well of as rental monies that are owed as they've gone ova thr contracted time... its criminal!! they should have to state clearly what thr for and likewise equate the right percentage for those works there for leaving no room for argument.. Re: Westminster Homes - The official thread 100Apr 17, 2009 12:15 am Hi feefay, I know who you are, we were sitting right behind you, and I thought it was a great answer. The adminstrator was quite taken back. what exactly did your contract say regarding your progress payments? did you pay 5% deposit? We insisted that they read exactly as the bank's had it in their special conditions for the loan aproval and we had no problems getting to a compromise. The contract says that you pay for additional variations at the time of the progress payment, but it is my understanding that anything you take out of the contract gets ajusted at the end. Is this what you mean? Were there many problems regarding workmanship etc.? I would be very interested. Thanks T. I would never build with Fowler homes. I built with them in 2021 and till date maintenance issues are pending. All their existing trades and businesses don't work with… 14 109959 Hi there! Putting the feelers out there for those who have (or almost) built with Arli homes! Interested in your experiences who've built from their stock home designs… 0 26754 |