Browse Forums Building Standards; Getting It Right! 1 Feb 03, 2020 4:19 pm Hi all, we are in a sticky situation with our draftsperson. We are building a cavity brick home and after 4 rounds of design the drafter admits they have never done cavity brick before (info would have been handy upfront!). Our builders are saying one thing but the drafter is insisting on other structural things such as additional stud walls in wet areas and insulation in the cavity (which I don't think is how it works!). Can anyone offer some advice or where I can go to find some independent information to help resolve this conflict between drafter and builder/bricklayers. I imagine the builders and brickies have a pretty good idea of what they can and cannot do but the drafter will not budge. Advice welcome please. Re: Difficult draftsperson advice needed 2Feb 03, 2020 9:22 pm Hey ReneeN Welcome to the forum ReneeN we are in a sticky situation with our draftsperson. We are building a cavity brick home and after 4 rounds of design the drafter admits they have never done cavity brick before (info would have been handy upfront!). It helps if your designer knows what they are doing? The codes to check and reference are the NCC, AS4773 Masonry in Small buildings and AS3700 Masonry Structures ReneeN Our builders are saying one thing but the drafter is insisting on other structural things such as additional stud walls in wet areas and insulation in the cavity (which I don't think is how it works!). The rule of thumb is generally building compliance is certified by a Building surveyor based on the NCC, anything out side is dealt with by a Licensed Engineer and then Certified by a Building Surveyor. imo most builders don't address AS3700 Masonry Structures adequately .. I'm guessing that's why the designer is insisting on organising the masonry Engineering Details Your Energy Report will recommend Cavity insulation If you require specific details you need to put up better information, photos, plans,etc ..the better the information the better the reply as it also helps others ReneeN I imagine the builders and brickies have a pretty good idea of what they can and cannot do but the drafter will not budge. Advice welcome please. LOL, That's debatable Search the forum for Cracked Brickwork The Brickie/Builder will take the easiest option which is not necessarily compliant BTW, your only fallback is on the engineering drawings/details ..please make sure the drawings are complete/certified and the work is checked onsite, take photos, etc,etc my2c Cheers Chris Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Difficult draftsperson advice needed 3Feb 03, 2020 9:44 pm Thanks Chris I will look at those standards. Sorry for the lack of info this is all new to me and sadly this designer was recommended to us and yes it would help if the designer knew what they were doing, they did not diwcolse that they didnt until it was too late, I guess there were some red flags that in our lack of experience and naivety we missed and we are where we are trying to get it right rather than cut our losses (and a lot of money!) and go elsewhere. The biggest things are the additional stud walls that they are insisting on which are 90mm on top of the 275mm Brick walls which makes for a lot of wall, the designer is insisting this is needed for waterproofing and services but builder and bricklayers are saying no not necessary? Also the insulation I was of the impression the cavity brick doesn't need to be insulated, there will be a full wrap around verandah which will reduce heating the walls. Other things are the number of courses of bricks under doors, the designer has put 2.5 courses of bricks under doors and builders say that is actually not a legal height to step out of a door? Do building surveyors get involved to look at plans and say what is and is not needed? I guess I have lost all confidence in our designer who also organises the building surveyors and engineer - and I am at the point I would like to get someone independent in, is a building surveyors who I should be looking for? Re: Difficult draftsperson advice needed 4Feb 04, 2020 9:07 am ReneeN Thanks Chris I will look at those standards. National Construction Codes The other Codes aren't free nor easily accessible Australian Standards ReneeN we are trying to get it right rather than cut our losses (and a lot of money!) and go elsewhere. That's how the system draws you (homeowner) in..be it designer or builder they operate the same way.. Caveat Emptor nuf said OT Unfortunately many walk out frustrated with the entire build process BTW you can change the process ReneeN The biggest things are the additional stud walls that they are insisting on which are 90mm on top of the 275mm Brick walls which makes for a lot of wall, the designer is insisting this is needed for waterproofing and services but builder and bricklayers are saying no not necessary? Also the insulation I was of the impression the cavity brick doesn't need to be insulated, there will be a full wrap around verandah which will reduce heating the walls. The designer and builder should provide you with Cross Section details ( 2D & 3D) and references that can be checked against the NCC and/or AS. If you don't have them then ask for them, put them up just like I do here Patio Deck with Pergola and ask questions... you are probably paying them top $s and getting very little in return? I suggest you don't focus on the energy report until you get the design and engineering details and costs organised. Engineering ( eg Siteworks) unlike energy upgrade costs can be huge ReneeN Do building surveyors get involved to look at plans and say what is and is not needed? I guess I have lost all confidence in our designer who also organises the building surveyors and engineer - and I am at the point I would like to get someone independent in, is a building surveyors who I should be looking for? BSs like public servants ( no offence intended) only stamp official compliance documents. If it's structurally non compliant you will require an engineer. The system is what it is 1. you need a designer 2. An Independent engineer 3 A building surveyor 4. Armed with the correct Certified Documents get a builder ( get 3 Builders to quote and get them to sharpen their quoting pencils I generally do 1,2 & 4) OT 3 has no control on 3D BIM Data/proofs HTH Chris Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Difficult draftsperson advice needed 5Feb 04, 2020 10:27 am It sounds like the draftsperson doesn't know what they're doing. There is no insulation required for double brick walls unless you want to increase the houses energy rating. Are your internal walls brick as well? If so there shouldn't be any need for studwork in the kitchen. There is no need for extra waterproofing either - double brick construction has 2 brick leaves with a cavity in between. The internal leaf sits on the edge of the floor slab and is structural/ weight bearing. The outside brickwork sits on a footing 2c below the slab, and creates a waterproof shell. The cavity stops moisture from reaching the internal walls. Services are usually chased into the internal brickwork. The shouldn't be any irregular course heights either. There are usually 2 brick courses below external door frames. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Re: Difficult draftsperson advice needed 6Feb 04, 2020 10:38 am amilelka It sounds like the draftsperson doesn't know what they're doing. There is no insulation required for double brick walls unless you want to increase the houses energy rating. Are your internal walls brick as well? If so there shouldn't be any need for studwork in the kitchen. There is no need for extra waterproofing either - double brick construction has 2 brick leaves with a cavity in between. The internal leaf sits on the edge of the floor slab and is structural/ weight bearing. The outside brickwork sits on a footing 2c below the slab, and creates a waterproof shell. The cavity stops moisture from reaching the internal walls. Services are usually chased into the internal brickwork. The shouldn't be any irregular course heights either. There are usually 2 brick courses below external door frames. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Thanks amielka those are my thoughts exactly! And this is the line of thinking and explanation from our builder and brickies. I just don't know how to progress without losing a lot of money already spent with this designer and potentially ending up with another who is just as hopeless! Arghhhh Re: Difficult draftsperson advice needed 7Feb 04, 2020 10:40 am StructuralBIMGuy ReneeN Thanks Chris I will look at those standards. National Construction Codes The other Codes aren't free nor easily accessible Australian Standards ReneeN we are trying to get it right rather than cut our losses (and a lot of money!) and go elsewhere. That's how the system draws you (homeowner) in..be it designer or builder they operate the same way.. Caveat Emptor nuf said OT Unfortunately many walk out frustrated with the entire build process BTW you can change the process ReneeN The biggest things are the additional stud walls that they are insisting on which are 90mm on top of the 275mm Brick walls which makes for a lot of wall, the designer is insisting this is needed for waterproofing and services but builder and bricklayers are saying no not necessary? Also the insulation I was of the impression the cavity brick doesn't need to be insulated, there will be a full wrap around verandah which will reduce heating the walls. The designer and builder should provide you with Cross Section details ( 2D & 3D) and references that can be checked against the NCC and/or AS. If you don't have them then ask for them, put them up just like I do here Patio Deck with Pergola and ask questions... you are probably paying them top $s and getting very little in return? I suggest you don't focus on the energy report until you get the design and engineering details and costs organised. Engineering ( eg Siteworks) unlike energy upgrade costs can be huge ReneeN Do building surveyors get involved to look at plans and say what is and is not needed? I guess I have lost all confidence in our designer who also organises the building surveyors and engineer - and I am at the point I would like to get someone independent in, is a building surveyors who I should be looking for? BSs like public servants ( no offence intended) only stamp official compliance documents. If it's structurally non compliant you will require an engineer. The system is what it is 1. you need a designer 2. An Independent engineer 3 A building surveyor 4. Armed with the correct Certified Documents get a builder ( get 3 Builders to quote and get them to sharpen their quoting pencils I generally do 1,2 & 4) OT 3 has no control on 3D BIM Data/proofs HTH Chris Thanks Chris you are a wealth of knowledge. Our designer says she has an engineer but I expect them to be just as hopeless if they work together regularly!! I will start looking for an independent engineer then! Re: Difficult draftsperson advice needed 8Feb 04, 2020 10:56 am ReneeN Our designer says she has an engineer but I expect them to be just as hopeless if they work together regularly!! LOL, birds of a feather flock together... Steer clear of Turkeys ReneeN I will start looking for an independent engineer then! Great... and you can always post back or leave a PM ( if you are not inclined to post) OT, let me break down Independent Engineer Independent , having no reliance and dependence on others, No commissions/payments, will not take sides in disputes, etc Engineer Trusted professions rankings nuf said Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Difficult draftsperson advice needed 9Feb 04, 2020 12:43 pm ReneeN I just don't know how to progress without losing a lot of money already spent with this designer and potentially ending up with another who is just as hopeless! Arghhhh When selecting a designer/architect don't get sucked in with fancy 3D presentations and rendered images they may look real but without the engineering, compliance, quants, data , costs, checks, etc.... they could be fake. Most of the projects I get now are reverse engineering other home designs in order to bring them closer to reality...love the irony 1. Check the designers project portfolio, focus on 3D BIM data, compliance and proofs,etc 2. Get contours, geotech reports upfront..avoid surprises later 3. Buy the sketch design and own copyright, then you can choose how to proceed with all the information/Data 4. Find another designer/architect, Builder or engineer that can offer you a complete service...put them to the test Unfortunately you have invested money and time..and you haven't even started the build as yet? not good Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Difficult draftsperson advice needed 10Feb 04, 2020 1:24 pm StructuralBIMGuy ReneeN I just don't know how to progress without losing a lot of money already spent with this designer and potentially ending up with another who is just as hopeless! Arghhhh When selecting a designer/architect don't get sucked in with fancy 3D presentations and rendered images they may look real but without the engineering, compliance, quants, data , costs, checks, etc.... they could be fake. Most of the projects I get now are reverse engineering other home designs in order to bring them closer to reality...love the irony 1. Check the designers project portfolio, focus on 3D BIM data, compliance and proofs,etc 2. Get contours, geotech reports upfront..avoid surprises later 3. Buy the sketch design and own copyright, then you can choose how to proceed with all the information/Data 4. Find another designer/architect, Builder or engineer that can offer you a complete service...put them to the test Unfortunately you have invested money and time..and you haven't even started the build as yet? not good Yes we were sucked in and yes t's not good and it is causing a lot of stress and a lot of money on designers fees which I doubt we have a leg to stand on on refusing to pay at this point, but we are ultimately paying for something that is not in line with what we asked for at the same time. I also suspect it's going to cost us more money down the track with the features she refuses to take out and the whole idea was to try and build something simple and affordable, it's not an architecturally designed house or anything! I appreciate the advice and pointing in the direction of where I can go from here. This designer did offer the whole sorting out everything that you have listed here but as you say birds of a feather, so I need to get independents! She has also put a bastard hip roof in, is that something I should be worried about? It looks really strange on the plan hence why I questioned it and when she told me what it was, well the name itself makes me wonder if it's going to be something to cause problems? Re: Difficult draftsperson advice needed 11Feb 04, 2020 2:05 pm Bastard roofs are just that.. and go hand in hand with Flat roofs, Parapets,box gutters etc ( I digress) and unless you have pitched and flashed roofs you wont understand what I'm saying Sorry to say you are in for problems, price increases and possible future maintenance issues...the trifecta of all issues Builders generally love latching on to designers that have no idea of how things really work other than the computer did it this way... it's also money for Jam in variations for the builder, once you sign the contract, while owners get lumped with the cost increases I'm Happy to take quick look leave a pm Cheers Chris Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Difficult draftsperson advice needed 12Feb 04, 2020 3:34 pm Looking at it from consumer point of view, draftsperson is there to assess your requirements and then offer compliant solutions, not to sell you something you don't want. It should be a staged process where initial design options are submitted for your choice. Then the selected design is further developed for secondary approval and so on until you sign off on final package including all plans specifications and the form of building contract. Then it is submitted to Building Surveyor for a building permit. Once building permit is issued you then get builder's prices. I don't know where your wheels fell off. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Difficult draftsperson advice needed 13Feb 04, 2020 3:46 pm building-expert Looking at it from consumer point of view, draftsperson is there to assess your requirements and then offer compliant solutions, not to sell you something you don't want. It should be a staged process where initial design options are submitted for your choice. Then the selected design is further developed for secondary approval and so on until you sign off on final package including all plans specifications and the form of building contract. Then it is submitted to Building Surveyor for a building permit. Once building permit is issued you then get builder's prices. I don't know where your wheels fell off. Either do I? It seems as though all drafters around me expect contract signed and payment in stages and we were asked to sign agreement to this before seeing first concept plan so we had already been signed into a contract. This was the case with at least 4 different people we spoke to so assumed this was the norm? That is in where the problem exists that we were locked into a contract before seeing what we were working with. And from concept one it has been way off the mark, there was some improvement but then further decline now to the point of absolute refusal to make requested changes. From a consumer perspective I am extremely unhappy and I don't want to buy something I am not happy with and further to that is copyrighted so I can't even go and get someone else to edit or fix it. I feel very trapped in this situation that much is sure. Re: Difficult draftsperson advice needed 14Feb 04, 2020 6:48 pm This will never be ok and you will never be happy with it and may become disastrous for you if you continue through the build. You may have to take a bitter pill now and exit, to save you from taking three bitter pills later. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Difficult draftsperson advice needed 15Feb 09, 2020 12:46 pm ReneeN Either do I? It seems as though all drafters around me expect contract signed and payment in stages and we were asked to sign agreement to this before seeing first concept plan so we had already been signed into a contract. This was the case with at least 4 different people we spoke to so assumed this was the norm? That is in where the problem exists that we were locked into a contract before seeing what we were working with. And from concept one it has been way off the mark, there was some improvement but then further decline now to the point of absolute refusal to make requested changes. From a consumer perspective I am extremely unhappy and I don't want to buy something I am not happy with and further to that is copyrighted so I can't even go and get someone else to edit or fix it. I feel very trapped in this situation that much is sure. A pre-start service agreement is standard, but it should only outline expectation of services provided being inclusions, exclusions and a scope of works provided by the designer. It is not a contract with set pricing, unless it clearly outlines what will be provided and for what price. Usually, in this case you would be entitled to 3 sketch plan revisions based around an approved concept deign. Not sure about your location, but this is a link to the BDAV in Victoria and their guide to service agreements and scope https://www.bdav.org.au/services-provided-by-building-designers From the outside looking in, it appears that the issue arises from 2 points. -1: A gap in agreement/understanding of the concept phase and design phase (not technical related but more to function/spatial/aesthetic) -2: A lack of experience on the Designers behalf relating to certain construction types. (FWIW we all have to start somewhere and you get basic/vague exposure to many types in training/school but in Vic its focused on timber frame cladded/BV Something else to remember is some requests wont comply with codes, but that be explained at the time of refusal. Similarly we can often reject some requests as the actual delivery won;t work based on experience, agin it should b explained. StructuralBIMGuy ReneeN I just don't know how to progress without losing a lot of money already spent with this designer and potentially ending up with another who is just as hopeless! Arghhhh When selecting a designer/architect don't get sucked in with fancy 3D presentations and rendered images they may look real but without the engineering, compliance, quants, data , costs, checks, etc.... they could be fake. Most of the projects I get now are reverse engineering other home designs in order to bring them closer to reality...love the irony 1. Check the designers project portfolio, focus on 3D BIM data, compliance and proofs,etc 2. Get contours, geotech reports upfront..avoid surprises later 3. Buy the sketch design and own copyright, then you can choose how to proceed with all the information/Data 1, Focus on 3d BIM?? Really? for a single detached dwelling, or even a bank of 10x townhouses?? I would suggest that then number of Architects and Designers who would have this level of detail in the back end is <10 Aus wide. I agree that its a great thing to strive for, but unless you're set up for it, its a massive undertaking with little value to the client 2. Absolutely agree. You should ideally liaise directly so that if you change Designer, you can provided the survey data immediately, rather than having to request it again. 3. Unfortunately, this is an expensive option. The Copyright/IP is ultimately the Designers livelihood and you could pay 10x the charge of the sketch fee or more, for something that you may not use, or at best case, use once. Re: Difficult draftsperson advice needed 16Feb 10, 2020 3:51 pm CF Design ReneeN Either do I? It seems as though all drafters around me expect contract signed and payment in stages and we were asked to sign agreement to this before seeing first concept plan so we had already been signed into a contract. This was the case with at least 4 different people we spoke to so assumed this was the norm? That is in where the problem exists that we were locked into a contract before seeing what we were working with. And from concept one it has been way off the mark, there was some improvement but then further decline now to the point of absolute refusal to make requested changes. From a consumer perspective I am extremely unhappy and I don't want to buy something I am not happy with and further to that is copyrighted so I can't even go and get someone else to edit or fix it. I feel very trapped in this situation that much is sure. A pre-start service agreement is standard, but it should only outline expectation of services provided being inclusions, exclusions and a scope of works provided by the designer. It is not a contract with set pricing, unless it clearly outlines what will be provided and for what price. Usually, in this case you would be entitled to 3 sketch plan revisions based around an approved concept deign. Not sure about your location, but this is a link to the BDAV in Victoria and their guide to service agreements and scope https://www.bdav.org.au/services-provided-by-building-designers From the outside looking in, it appears that the issue arises from 2 points. -1: A gap in agreement/understanding of the concept phase and design phase (not technical related but more to function/spatial/aesthetic) -2: A lack of experience on the Designers behalf relating to certain construction types. (FWIW we all have to start somewhere and you get basic/vague exposure to many types in training/school but in Vic its focused on timber frame cladded/BV Something else to remember is some requests wont comply with codes, but that be explained at the time of refusal. Similarly we can often reject some requests I would suggest that then number of Architects and Designers who would have this level of detail in the back end is <10 Aus wide. I agree that its a great thing to strive for, but unless you're set up for it, its a massive undertaking with little value to the client 2. Absolutely agree. You should ideally liaise directly so that if you change Designer, you can provided the survey data immediately, rather than having to request it again. 3. Unfortunately, this is an expensive option. The Copyright/IP is ultimately the Designers livelihood and you could pay 10x the charge of the sketch fee or more, for something that you may not use, or at best case, use once. Your assessment from outside looking in would be spot on. But all of the pre start service agreements I was given all included outlined work and prices and a contract for me to sign before seeing a concept design. A few I spoke to would not even discolse a price guide before sending a full blown contract for me to sign with all the costs outlined. Maybe I just called the wrong places. The website you have linked seems very thorough I guess the designer has said they will cover all those things but with loss of confidence in their ability I don't feel as comfortable letting that happen. So from your perspective where do I stand as a consumer if I can't have copy right of the plans and/or the designer refuses to work with what I want? Like do I actually have to pay for a plan that is nothing like what I wanted/asked for it to be, and I can't take elsewhere to get fixed due to copyright? Re: Difficult draftsperson advice needed 17Feb 10, 2020 4:17 pm I feel like the options you have are dependent on how much you have paid and what that means to you(as in $5k could next to nothing or quite a lot) It also depends on what stage you're at. From the sounds of it, you're still in between design development stage and potentially construction drawings stage. Taking one designers IP and modifying it is fraught with danger, unless you get a release to use the design and modify as required. My opinion is that it is often better to start again as it can be difficult to resolve some issues that exist within an existing design without spending a lot big time doing so. You regularly spend the same time from a fresh approach. What state/area are you located in? I can recommend a couple big places depending bon locale. An idea on your costs bao far would also help, but I don't expect you to disclose it Re: Difficult draftsperson advice needed 18Feb 10, 2020 4:25 pm CF Design I feel like the options you have are dependent on how much you have paid and what that means to you(as in $5k could next to nothing or quite a lot) It also depends on what stage you're at. From the sounds of it, you're still in between design development stage and potentially construction drawings stage. Taking one designers IP and modifying it is fraught with danger, unless you get a release to use the design and modify as required. My opinion is that it is often better to start again as it can be difficult to resolve some issues that exist within an existing design without spending a lot big time doing so. You regularly spend the same time from a fresh approach. What state/area are you located in? I can recommend a couple big places depending bon locale. An idea on your costs bao far would also help, but I don't expect you to disclose it I am in NSW and we haven't actually paid anything yet however from my review of the contract I would expect we are about $3000 deep as we have plans for costing estimates (which is where the issues have come up when we have shown them to our builders for an idea of price) but not final lodgemebt construction plans yet. I like the floor plan and it's taken us since October to get here and we had hoped to build this year so starting over is a scary thought!! Re: Difficult draftsperson advice needed 19Feb 10, 2020 4:50 pm Again, from the outside. $3k is nothing when related to the overall cost of building a house, especially a custom home. Having been through a re development of an existing house to new home (knockdown/rebuild or however you wish to term it) I can only say that I wish we had taken more time planning and I would have spent another $50k on getting some things right/better in hindsight. Professionally, once the design is done and signed off, there is no excuse for gaps in the drawing content, especially if the same person has done the design. I see a lot of designs from Architects who don't have relevant registration and cannot provide drawings for permits, and the issues with a lot of them are a lack of construction knowledge and not being able to resolve issues without major rework. This also means changes to planning permits and expensive amendments. I can't help with NSW referrals but check out the Building Design Association Australia and use their lookup to your options. https://www.bdaa.com.au/ Re: Difficult draftsperson advice needed 20Feb 10, 2020 4:56 pm CF Design Again, from the outside. $3k is nothing when related to the overall cost of building a house, especially a custom home. Having been through a re development of an existing house to new home (knockdown/rebuild or however you wish to term it) I can only say that I wish we had taken more time planning and I would have spent another $50k on getting some things right/better in hindsight. Professionally, once the design is done and signed off, there is no excuse for gaps in the drawing content, especially if the same person has done the design. I see a lot of designs from Architects who don't have relevant registration and cannot provide drawings for permits, and the issues with a lot of them are a lack of construction knowledge and not being able to resolve issues without major rework. This also means changes to planning permits and expensive amendments. I can't help with NSW referrals but check out the Building Design Association Australia and use their lookup to your options. https://www.bdaa.com.au/ Thank you so much Hi All, I engaged a tradie to install concrete retaining wall 600-800mm high over 32 meters in Victoria. Sleepers are 200*75*2000 mm installed over 17 steel posts. I… 0 3721 Building Standards; Getting It Right! Don't think they are designed for double brick. WA has a particular way of building and unfortunately that's the way a large amount of sills are finished. 3 4730 Versaloc is a mortarless besser block system that still needs a properly engineered footing. If you just do a 400x200 footing it will fail in time. At 17m long you need it… 1 3323 |