Browse Forums Building Standards; Getting It Right! 1 May 08, 2017 11:36 pm Hey everyone, We are currently building our first home and have recently reached the frame stage (finally!). But we have noticed that our frames don't appear to have horizontal timber bars (noggings?) in between the studs. Instead there are these thin, flimsy looking metal 'braces' attached to the frames...please see pics. ALL the other builds we have seen have timber noggings in between the studs which make them look and feel much more sturdy. So we are worried... Does anyone know whether this frame system without timber noggings is OK and whether this is compliant? Our builder (unfortunately) has been quite poor in communications and is extremely defensive about any questions raised, which makes us more worried... Any advice from a professional or someone with experience with these bracings would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance! Newbie2017 Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Re: Frames without timber noggings? 3Jun 03, 2017 4:28 pm qebtel lol relax, its just temporary, the nogging will come. Thanks qebtel! Phew... That makes us feel a lot better! Do you know when the noggings would be put in normally? Our brickwork and upstairs cladding are almost all done now but still no obvious signs of noggings. Do the chippies normally only put in noggings where they think necessary therefore we might not see them between all studs? Thanks again! Newbie2017 Re: Frames without timber noggings? 5Jul 15, 2017 1:12 am qebtel Nogging should go in as the frame is being done and be part of the completed frame before anything else happens. If brickwork is going on Id query why the nogging is not in.. Hi qebtel I have asked the builder and he says this is a new thing to be "greener" ie no timber noggings just metal tracks. But I've not seen any houses being built that are using this "new system" so am worried... Anyone else out there with experience of this new framing system?? Re: Frames without timber noggings? 7Jul 15, 2017 1:38 am We've also not seen any being built around here that uses this "new system"... Very much worried. Anyone with any advice out there?? Re: Frames without timber noggings? 8Jul 15, 2017 11:58 am Get a second opinion from an inspector, CYA. Or is this another of the "alternative solutions" that the NCC allows for Re: Frames without timber noggings? 9Jul 15, 2017 12:18 pm newbie2017 ask the builder for the framing details and then have them check by an independent Structural engineer I am seeing way too many alternate solutions appearing on building sites lately. You should at least have it explained to you and be given a choice Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Frames without timber noggings? 10Jul 16, 2017 2:01 am StructuralBIMGuy @newbie2017 ask the builder for the framing details and then have them check by an independent Structural engineer I am seeing way too many alternate solutions appearing on building sites lately. You should at least have it explained to you and be given a choice Thanks for the advice StructuralBIMGuy. Will give it a go... have had quite a few issues with the builder lately, mostly due to him getting extremely defensive when I question him on things. His answer for everything so far has been "we do everything as per industry standards". It's been quite stressful... Re: Frames without timber noggings? 11Jul 16, 2017 7:34 am Newbie2017 The days where builders just cover things up and treat clients like mushrooms are gone & here's why 1. Clients are able to visit the site take photos and question what's going on 2. Through the internet & forums they can also ask for advice & get professional opinions 3.The NCC online is free, chances are if the detail doesn't look compliant then it isn't 4.The onus is on the builder to provide proof that the alternate (non-compliance?) is equivalent or better than what's required in the Australian Standards 5.Structural proofs are provided by Engineers..not by what the builder says "everybody does" There's currently a senate inquiry into building certification or lack of it, hopefully tighter national standards will come of it which state are you in? Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Frames without timber noggings? 12Jul 16, 2017 9:57 am IMO, nogging is there to stop the stud from twisting and in the same way, cross bracing is there to keep the frame square. As long as the strap is securely attached to the stud, I would have thought it will be as good. There is also the advantage that insulation will go from top to bottom and if you ever need to add more power /data cables you won't have the nogging there as an obstruction. My only concern would be how it affects the finish of the plaster board and I guess that will depend on the thickness of the strap. Re: Frames without timber noggings? 13Jul 16, 2017 10:21 am Searching4 knowledge IMO, nogging is there to stop the stud from twisting and in the same way, cross bracing is there to keep the frame square. As long as the strap is securely attached to the stud, I would have thought it will be as good. There is also the advantage that insulation will go from top to bottom and if you ever need to add more power /data cables you won't have the nogging there as an obstruction. My only concern would be how it affects the finish of the plaster board and I guess that will depend on the thickness of the strap. The pictures appear to show the horizontal strap is only on one side of the stud (same side as cross bracing) with what I would assume is a couple of nails fastening it so will be useless to achieve the same torsional strength as a noggin to stop twist of the stud. However in my limited knowledge a noggin's purpose appears to provide support to the studs by stopping them deflecting when they receive a vertical load. This "alternative solution" may look like it is offering the same support but it will probably make the strap buckle instead of transfer the energy into adjacent studs like a noggin would. As StructuralBIMGuy notes, this should be backed up by proper engineering proof to ensure that the owner is receiving a better solution than what is already in place according to the NCC and Australian Standards Re: Frames without timber noggings? 14Jul 16, 2017 10:36 am Newbie2017, it sounds like you need the services of a very good building consultant to do your stage inspections. With the increasing proliferation of Performance Based Solutions (formerly Alternative Solutions), the need to know what is in your contract pre signing is now more important than ever before. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Frames without timber noggings? 15Jul 16, 2017 3:49 pm Wow! Now I've seen it all. A builder refusing to put in Noggins. What a tool (excuse the pun) Kindly refer your builder to AS 1684.4, being the Australian standard on Residential framing. Para 6.2.1.5 - requires your builder to have noggins. See page 47 here... http://mikestrade.sydneyinstitute.wikis ... ied%29.pdf Good luck with it mate. Take lots of photos and get a building inspector to check everything from now on at all stages. Carefully consider when your make your progress payments, until you are happy and all issues in your building report rectified to your absolute satisfaction. Keep photos and notes of every stage. The one thing I have learned is they really don't care and will tell you any "pork pie" to try and do the bare minimum and get away with it. Don't let them make a mug of you. If you have a suspicion, Google it, call the manufacturer of the product and ask their technical support line, make a post on this forum and ask your building inspector. Good luck with it. Cheers Nom Newhaven 36 by M Blog - North Shore Newhaven (http://nsnewhaven.blogspot.com.au) Build - https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=85092 Re: Frames without timber noggings? 16Jul 16, 2017 10:25 pm Thanks again for everyone's advice and tips. I have gone to the house today to note all the walls without noggings. Out of about 50 wall space, there were only 14 that had any form of nogging (some below windows at approx. 1000mm height and others at approx. 1350mm height). Given that this has kept me up for the last few nights, I have been trolling the internet. Managed to find an old 2008 assay that compared different nogging systems. It said that builders in Oz apparently used to use these flat metal straps in lieu of noggings - but couldn't find when or why they were stopped... Have also seen on another forum that some old houses don't have any horizontal noggings but just diagonal timber bars. Any chippies out there that have dealt with these flat metal straps 'back in the day'??? Thanks nomnomnom structuralBIMGuy pauldab saveh2O for advice on getting an independent inspector. I will first email the builder and ask for some noggings to be put in (some studs are only 200mm or so apart so maybe don't need noggings?). If they refuse again, I will look for an inspector to engage. ATM we (family of four) are in a tiny rented house with one bathroom, which we occasionally share with visiting grandparents (diving us and them nuts!!). So we desperately need the house built on schedule (currently at rough in stage) and avoid any potential hold ups/disputes. I think this is part of the reasons why we've been held at ransom and walked all over - as we have just been "sucking up" their "explanations", hoping that as the builder has been around for >20 years that the finished house can't be too bad... naïve, I know. Oh.. the joys of building a dream home... Re: Frames without timber noggings? 17Jul 16, 2017 11:36 pm I think pauldab is right in regard to the single strap. If this is the case, they wouldn't be nearly as effective as having them on both sides of the stud. Re: Frames without timber noggings? 18Jul 17, 2017 8:42 am Newbie2017 So we desperately need the house built on schedule (currently at rough in stage) and avoid any potential hold ups/disputes. I think this is part of the reasons why we've been held at ransom and walked all over - as we have just been "sucking up" their "explanations", hoping that as the builder has been around for >20 years that the finished house can't be too bad... naïve, I know. Oh.. the joys of building a dream home... Yes some starve you of taking possession and force you into submission..but if it's non-compliant it needs to be rectified. Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Frames without timber noggings? 19Aug 12, 2017 10:40 pm hi everyone, just a bit of closure on this and also for future reference if anyone is faced with a similar situation. So, after all the advice provided here, we contacted the frame manufacturer and were told that the frames are compliant (of course they'd say that). Apparently as there are two metal strips - one across the top and one across the bottom - they are deemed to be OK structurally. We also checked with a few other frame manufacturers and a couple of them knew about this method of putting in "ribbon noggins" instead of timber noggins. However, the other manufacturers said that they did not sell these type of pre-fab frames. Anyway, we still felt unsure so we asked the builder to have the carpenters put some timber noggins in - for those studs that are 450mm or more apart. The builder eventually agreed but we need to pay - about $2,000. It's quite a lot of money, but we decided at the end to just suck it up and pay. It would provide us with peace of mind in the long term so $2K is acceptable. The frames now have timber noggings in between about half of all the studs, and feels and looks a lot more normal! Cheers, Newbie2017 Re: Frames without timber noggings? 20Aug 13, 2017 8:47 am Newbie2017 Please lodge a complaint with the Building commission in your state also ...Charging clients (Gouging) $2000 extra over for what should be standard is Bulldust BTW you could have put them in yourself for $100 Please leave a PM & Thanks for the update Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs This certainly doesn't look good. I would be engaging with an independent inspector to have a look at this. As for the unscheduled site visits, most builders are quite… 1 28321 Elvis has left the building... 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