Browse Forums Building Standards; Getting It Right! 1 Jun 11, 2016 3:15 pm We are building a two story home with a 4 meter balcony at the front. We have just notice that the large steel girder that spans across the front of the first floor connecting the balcony is suppose to be hot dip gal but it's not treated, it's steel. We are opposite Botany bay and already there are signs of rust after just a few months. In fact the poles supporting to the girder are also untreated metal. My question is now that the balcony has been built, the roof trusses have gone on how does our builder fix this problem? Re: How does our builder fix this issue? 2Jun 11, 2016 3:26 pm Strictly speaking the solution is to demolish and replace. As you have identified this is a problem the builder will probably look to negotiate an acceptable solution. For example using a cold galvanised paint treatment. (something that is used to repair damage to a hot dipped galvanised steel beam) If you are offered this you should ask about corrosion guarantees and price reductions. The Harder You Try - the Luckier You Get ! Web site http://www.anewhouse.com.au Informative, Amusing, and Opinionated Blog - Over 600 posts on all aspects of building a new house. Re: How does our builder fix this issue? 3Jun 11, 2016 11:20 pm They should be building to "marine environment " so close to the water , one solution would be to use the same paint that is used on the harbour bridge . I have done a couple of jobs around the harbour where this paint was specified. Re: How does our builder fix this issue? 4Jun 12, 2016 9:15 am Over all I'm happy with the building company we picked but where it has all fallen down so to speak is the supervisor they assigned to our job was new to the company and obviously wasn't up to the task. I don't think painting the beam is going to satisfy my concerns but thank you for your input and it gives me some idea of what to expect with what ideas they might try to sell to us. Re: How does our builder fix this issue? 5Jun 12, 2016 12:53 pm I too think you are not going t be happy with paint solution. As a first step contact your building surveyor. It his his job to ensure steel members achieve NCC corrosion protection requirements. Secondly, failing to provide galvanising to steel members exposed to marine environment is not only non compliance but is also non conformance with your contract. My guess - demolish and replace steelwork Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: How does our builder fix this issue? 6Jun 12, 2016 1:30 pm gcambo I don't think painting the beam is going to satisfy my concerns but thank you for your input and it gives me some idea of what to expect with what ideas they might try to sell to us. Who is "us"? Contracting a well qualified building consultant who does inspections to examine the contract pre signing and overseeing the vital building stages is virtually mandatory in these times. Having an inexperienced SS on the job is often cost cutting. The adage is "If there has been any cost cutting or examples of poor workmanship found, there will be others." Depending on the builder, an SS can be supervising up to and sometimes in excess of 20 builds but even if they only supervise a few, you should not expect the SS to know everything. I would not accept a bandaid 'solution', someone ordered the wrong material and it wasn't the SS but the 'fix' may be determined by the builder managing to get an Alternative Solution certified to circumvent the non compliance and breach of contract. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: How does our builder fix this issue? 7Jun 13, 2016 6:26 am SaveH2O gcambo I don't think painting the beam is going to satisfy my concerns but thank you for your input and it gives me some idea of what to expect with what ideas they might try to sell to us. Who is "us"? Contracting a well qualified building consultant who does inspections to examine the contract pre signing and overseeing the vital building stages is virtually mandatory in these times. Having an inexperienced SS on the job is often cost cutting. The adage is "If there has been any cost cutting or examples of poor workmanship found, there will be others." Depending on the builder, an SS can be supervising up to and sometimes in excess of 20 builds but even if they only supervise a few, you should not expect the SS to know everything. I would not accept a bandaid 'solution', someone ordered the wrong material and it wasn't the SS but the 'fix' may be determined by the builder managing to get an Alternative Solution certified to circumvent the non compliance and breach of contract. It's not just SS that is at fault, what about building inspector that inspected and passed the frame? and isn't someone supposed to supervise the supervisor, what about the person who ordered steelwork?, what about the person who received it on site and supposed to check delivery?, what about the rigger that put it up? What you are looking at is systemic fault, not just isolated human error. This is why I am in favour of the present (inadequate) mandatory inspections to be expanded to include basic QA system that also ensures NO ONE GETS PAID UNTIL THE JOB IS RIGHT. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: How does our builder fix this issue? 8Jun 13, 2016 7:41 am gcambo Over all I'm happy with the building company we picked but where it has all fallen down so to speak is the supervisor they assigned to our job was new to the company and obviously wasn't up to the task. I don't think painting the beam is going to satisfy my concerns but thank you for your input and it gives me some idea of what to expect with what ideas they might try to sell to us. Fully understand that it's not what you want , unless you get them to remove and replace it , then coating the steel with a protective paint is your only option . Building the house as close to the sea as you are I would be telling them to replace Re: How does our builder fix this issue? 9Jun 13, 2016 8:54 am I don't care to get into the politics. But if you are looking to treat the steel I highly recommend looking and talking to the folks at Rust Bullet. I have used their Automotive Black shell and there Industrial coatings with huge amounts of success. To the point where I did a test panel. The system is a 2 coat. The following photos were using a single coat of the industrial on mild steel left outside for 6 months. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ It can be painted over within 48hours otherwise it needs a special etch spray as it goes so hard before painting. Rustbullet will talk you through it all. Good gear. Re: How does our builder fix this issue? 10Jun 13, 2016 12:26 pm 68BUS I don't care to get into the politics. But if you are looking to treat the steel I highly recommend looking and talking to the folks at Rust Bullet. I have used their Automotive Black shell and there Industrial coatings with huge amounts of success. To the point where I did a test panel. The system is a 2 coat. The following photos were using a single coat of the industrial on mild steel left outside for 6 months. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ It can be painted over within 48hours otherwise it needs a special etch spray as it goes so hard before painting. Rustbullet will talk you through it all. Good gear. There is no politics here, just the harsh reality that water is unforgiving and when combined with salt it is doubly so, I know I am on the beachfront and get salt spray all over the windows. The issue is not whether there is a painting system that will stop corrosion( there is) but whether all surfaces can be successfully treated. You may paint everything you can but you won't get everything, when water seeps there or is driven there by wind it will corrode unprotected surfaces and you will have rust stains leaching out, so where will that leave you? I suspect that the relevant building surveyor will say "I am not having any of it, pull it up and do it again" Let's see. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: How does our builder fix this issue? 11Jun 13, 2016 4:03 pm building-expert It's not just SS that is at fault, what about building inspector that inspected and passed the frame? and isn't someone supposed to supervise the supervisor, what about the person who ordered steelwork?, what about the person who received it on site and supposed to check delivery?, what about the rigger that put it up? What you are looking at is systemic fault, not just isolated human error. Exactly. A very poor state of affairs. Tim65 Fully understand that it's not what you want , unless you get them to remove and replace it , then coating the steel with a protective paint is your only option . As is, it is not compliant. An "option" can only be used if it meets compliance and that means certifying an Alternative Solution...unless everyone continues to turn a blind eye. 68BUS I don't care to get into the politics. Politics? The subject matter is about contractual breach and non compliance but if your reference to "politics" is in fact referring to contractual breach and non compliance, then perhaps you should consider refraining from giving 'advice' about these subject matters if you don't fully understand and "don't care" about them. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: How does our builder fix this issue? 12Jun 14, 2016 9:15 am That is exactly the sort of thing I was trying to avoid. Politics. Not building and construction politics. But forum politics. I work on the beautifully dull and convoluted area of commercial building contracts daily. I build multi million dollar projects and have not only return clients, but return architects and engineers. I have seen an awful lot of terrible builder and fixed their work. The contractual items had been covered. Why go over them again... We are on a public forum. And as such this information will be around for a long time and accessible to the public via search engines for a long time. I did not say that an acceptable outcome was to treat the steel over replacing it. If you read my post I said that if they were looking to treat the steel then a good product is...... The reason I gave this information was to do with the fact that there are others who will come onto this thread and see there is an issue with steal treatment. Also they will see the mention of cold gal. A product that will not stand up to time not salt air. And who knows, the way things go between larger builders and smaller clients it may be the option that they settle on. Because sometimes the other option is a job held up and a fight through a tribunal. An expensive exercise unless the home owner is living off cash in hand and not paying an mortgage. So perhaps, you can call for a ladder an get down from your high horse. Considering you yourself have pointed to the fact that a solution may ultimately be settled on that is not replacing the steel you may need to re think how you phrase your posts. In case you missed you own advice referring to this I will paste it again for you. I would not accept a bandaid 'solution', someone ordered the wrong material and it wasn't the SS but the 'fix' may be determined by the builder managing to get an Alternative Solution certified to circumvent the non compliance and breach of contract. All the best with your fix. I will be sure to keep any further advice to myself. I am aware it is not helpful for industry professionals who have dealt with similar situations to provide any sort of help when there is already information given that may cost all involved a lot of heart ache and money. They are right. Stop works and take them to mediation. Oh, and extend you current rental lease by 6 months. You will need it. Re: How does our builder fix this issue? 13Jun 14, 2016 10:02 am 68BUS As far as I am concerned your posts are welcome and the forum is richer for them regardless of whether I or anyone else agrees or disagrees with what you have to say. Little bit of contest ( even heated) is good providing it does not degenerate into disrespect. I have been frequently challenged and its OK I am a big boy and can take care of myself. You too would have grown a thicker skin than you let on and your experience is invaluable. Keep posting! Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: How does our builder fix this issue? 14Jun 14, 2016 10:20 am One of the reasons why I recommended owner refers the matter to the relevant building surveyor because it is a matter of non compliance and referral to "higher authority". That will avoid the dispute between owner and the builder. The proposal for alternative treatment can only be a variation for builder's convenience and owner does not have to agree. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: How does our builder fix this issue? 15Jun 14, 2016 12:38 pm building-expert SaveH2O gcambo I don't think painting the beam is going to satisfy my concerns but thank you for your input and it gives me some idea of what to expect with what ideas they might try to sell to us. Who is "us"? Contracting a well qualified building consultant who does inspections to examine the contract pre signing and overseeing the vital building stages is virtually mandatory in these times. Having an inexperienced SS on the job is often cost cutting. The adage is "If there has been any cost cutting or examples of poor workmanship found, there will be others." Depending on the builder, an SS can be supervising up to and sometimes in excess of 20 builds but even if they only supervise a few, you should not expect the SS to know everything. I would not accept a bandaid 'solution', someone ordered the wrong material and it wasn't the SS but the 'fix' may be determined by the builder managing to get an Alternative Solution certified to circumvent the non compliance and breach of contract. It's not just SS that is at fault, what about building inspector that inspected and passed the frame? and isn't someone supposed to supervise the supervisor, what about the person who ordered steelwork?, what about the person who received it on site and supposed to check delivery?, what about the rigger that put it up? What you are looking at is systemic fault, not just isolated human error. This is why I am in favour of the present (inadequate) mandatory inspections to be expanded to include basic QA system that also ensures NO ONE GETS PAID UNTIL THE JOB IS RIGHT. That's if a inspection has indeed been carried out, having been a ss at times you are in a no win suituation A couple of companies I have worked for would not allow us to order major items this was all done by the PM You get the delivery on site and you know it's not what is in the specifications , bring it to the PM attention and then get told just fit don't worry about it we will deal with it later , I have recently stopped working for a company because of this far too many corners being cut and a very inexperienced PM who could not read a Enginers drawings. The OP has 2 choices ,either except what has been fitted and apply a protective coating or simply stand by the contract and say that what has been fitted is not what is specified . This will no doubt as has already been said will delay the job , if they are reputable company then it would have been ordered correct ! I feel it's been done to save a bit of money and hope the op didn't latch onto it , as when it was being priced you can bet that it would have been sent to suppliers to get a quote with the required specification or both options Galv and just primed. If it has been inspected I would be asking the certifier for a explanation Re: How does our builder fix this issue? 16Jun 14, 2016 2:46 pm 68BUS That is exactly the sort of thing I was trying to avoid. Politics. Not building and construction politics. But forum politics. My post clearly stated in the simplest terms possible what the regulatory requirements are when there is an issue of non compliance whereas your post referred solely to a product to consider using if adopting a possible/probable non compliant and non contractual ‘fix’. You appear to clutch at “politics” as a drowning defence as is evident by your initial nondescript sentence in your opening post. Who and what text were you referring to in that instance? There are too many times new home owners are railroaded into accepting a sub standard non compliant solution only made possible by others turning a blind eye or being influenced by others who should know better than to give the advice they do. In the case of this thread’s subject matter, the work is months old, already rusting and may have already been erroneously passed as compliant by the building surveyor, something that would be of major concern to the surveyor if he/she is now the wiser. Regardless of whether it has been passed or not, the building surveyor should be informed. In case you missed it, I have pasted part of this thread’s opening post below... gcambo We are building a two story home with a 4 meter balcony at the front. We have just notice that the large steel girder that spans across the front of the first floor connecting the balcony is suppose to be hot dip gal but it's not treated, it's steel. We are opposite Botany bay and already there are signs of rust after just a few months. In fact the poles supporting to the girder are also untreated metal. 68BUS The contractual items had been covered. Why go over them again... Because you ignored them! There are many others beside the OP who read these posts and they also have the right to clarification. 68BUS I did not say that an acceptable outcome was to treat the steel over replacing it. If you read my post I said that if they were looking to treat the steel then a good product is...... And in doing so, you effectively endorsed the method as an acceptable solution. 68BUS And who knows, the way things go between larger builders and smaller clients it may be the option that they settle on. This is possible because as I mentioned earlier in this post and what is worth repeating...”There are too many times new home owners are railroaded into accepting a sub standard non compliant solution only made possible by others turning a blind eye or being influenced by others who should know better than to give the advice they do.” This does NOT make it right. 68BUS So perhaps, you can call for a ladder an get down from your high horse. I prioritise the OP’s and the public’s right to appropriate information over the sensibilities of those who choose to ignore compliance when posting. If posting about the regulatory requirements is my being on a high horse, so be it. If you choose not to be, then that is your choice, you have plenty of mates in the building industry unfortunately. 68BUS Considering you yourself have pointed to the fact that a solution may ultimately be settled on that is not replacing the steel you may need to re think how you phrase your posts. In case you missed you own advice referring to this I will paste it again for you. I would not accept a bandaid 'solution', someone ordered the wrong material and it wasn't the SS but the 'fix' may be determined by the builder managing to get an Alternative Solution certified to circumvent the non compliance and breach of contract. You need to work on your comprehension. The above was advising about what a builder “may” do as per the regulatory framework. Regardless, the building surveyor must still pass any ‘solution’ used as being compliant and this could prove difficult in the circumstances. It could also prove difficult to have an acknowledged expert certify (if required) an Alternative Solution (now called a Performance Based Solution) for this situation but time will tell on both counts. This is out of the OP's control. 68BUS All the best with your fix. Read what I posted again, I stated a regulatory procedure, not a ‘fix’. 68BUS I will be sure to keep any further advice to myself. I am aware it is not helpful for industry professionals who have dealt with similar situations to provide any sort of help when there is already information given that may cost all involved a lot of heart ache and money. They are right. Stop works and take them to mediation. Oh, and extend you current rental lease by 6 months. You will need it. At ‘the end of the day’, a decision made will/should be based on the regulatory framework, the builder’s integrity and social conscience and (to a degree) the OP's acceptance. In the interim, the OP has the right to be fully informed and I make no apologies for pursuing that goal. It serves no useful purpose for you to be petulant. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: How does our builder fix this issue? 17Jun 18, 2016 2:54 pm Our new SS had an engineer out to look at the situation with the beam. They are trying to determine if the beam is external or internal. A technicality basically in my view but they are waiting on his verdict and are indicating they want to cold Gal. Unfortunately I'm not so sure that is going to cut mustard when it states all the nails that went into the frame had to be gal. Obviously they would prefer to cold Gal but our cert has already indicated he is going to make a decision based on the requirements of what it should of been unless convinced otherwise. More time wasting, any wonder people get frustrated when they build. Re: How does our builder fix this issue? 18Jun 24, 2016 1:13 pm Here are a few photos of the beam from underneath and one on the first floor to the balcony.[br] Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ [/br] They have wielded Gal plates to the RSJ beam so as to lower the floor level. [br] Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ [/br] The Posts holding up the RSJ. [br] Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ [/br] Looking down onto the RSJ first floor to the balcony. [br] Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ [/br] The balcony. [br] Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ [/br] Re: How does our builder fix this issue? 19Jun 27, 2016 12:11 pm Google Electrolysis; Oxidation. You can improvise something that will prevent oxidation (using electrolysis) connect it to your steel for a lifetime protection. I haven't tried this yet but I think once you know the principle you can create your own system. Re: How does our builder fix this issue? 20Jun 27, 2016 7:56 pm marblaze Google Electrolysis; Oxidation. You can improvise something that will prevent oxidation (using electrolysis) connect it to your steel for a lifetime protection. I haven't tried this yet but I think once you know the principle you can create your own system. That's like having sacrifical zinc anode on a boat. The trouble is you have to have to service/ change them. Who is ging to be bothered with that? Why improvise when you have paid for your steel to have been hot dop galvanised? Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog the conduit would need to be undamaged regardless of what network is in play. The conduit needs to be able to have fibre run through it. NBN and Opticomm are just… 4 2890 Hey guys, what’s everyone opinion on James Hardie linea direct fix to frame? Would this be the most common method and anybody ever had any problems down the track? 0 5159 DIY, Home Maintenance & Repair If the railhead is so poorly fixed it is also likely that the railhead is also non compliant, what about overflows and sealing railhead to the gutters?. 3 5975 |