Browse Forums Building Standards; Getting It Right! 1 Nov 09, 2015 12:13 pm Hi everyone. I'm hoping someone on here can give me some information on what we can expect when we go to VCAT. Back story (I'll condense it since its been going on 3 years): We moved into our new home in 2012. It is on a waffle slab with 56 piers, the soil classification was P. The engineering specified the piers were to be tied to the slab, however we know this was not done (forgotten, though when questioned, told they aren't required and it was over engineered - photo evidence). Also, the inspector signed off on this work, though its clear from the dates on the occupancy report he didn't even inspect the piers. The slab is also sitting lower than designed and scoria was used between the piers and the slab. Cracks started to appear even before handover. One side of the perimeter of the house was very wet during build, partially because they cut in too low so we sit a bit lower than our neighbour and get their run off. Builder told us the slab was heaving due to the wet side of the house. So on their advice, we concreted and put in drainage (we split the cost with the builder). Waited 18 months and still having issues. Issues we have include doors not opening, cavity sliders hanging at angles, shower base cracked with pressure from movement, large cracks in plasterwork (numerous), gaps between skirts/archs, windows that are very difficult to open, cracks in brickwork, expansion joint completely split apart, gap opened up between edge of external sliding door and brick work so much that you can see through to the frame. There is probably more but you get the idea. When the builder went to patch the shower base instead of replace it for the 3rd time we decided to get legal advice. So, we had a preliminary report done by our structural engineer where it was found it would be more economical to knock the house down and start again. This was submitted to our builder who got their own engineer out and of course found there is nothing wrong, nothing even worth monitoring. Our next step is to start spending big money, get a full report done, more levels and go to VCAT. Advice from our lawyers is that despite having a strong case, going to VCAT is risky (perhaps more risky than patching the house and selling). And will cost in the vicinity of $80K+. This is not money we have but are contemplating whether we should try and find it so we can fight them. Another factor I should mention is that our builders lawyer is also a VCAT mediator. We're torn between fighting them or letting it go since this is such a large amount of money and we are likely to not even get all our costs back even if we win. Does anyone have any advice for us? Is the information we've been given accurate? Re: VCAT - experiences with significant foundation problems 2Nov 09, 2015 2:27 pm My advice is don't look for more advice on the Internet. Speak with your lawyers and make a call. It seems you have enough of a case and evidence, but you can also expect it to drag on. As to the builders lawyer being a vcat mediator, I would assume they could not mediate between you and the builder due to the conflict of interest. Good luck, not a nice place to be. Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: VCAT - experiences with significant foundation problems 3Nov 09, 2015 2:32 pm Thanks for replying. Yep our lawyers advised their lawyer won't be able to appear for them, still concerned about the influence he might have over the other members that may affect our case. I keep hearing VCAT does not always produce a fair outcome so that's our concern when it comes to spending the money. Nope, not fun at all - very stressful and made worse by the fact that we thought we investigated builders thoroughly! Thanks for your advice Re: VCAT - experiences with significant foundation problems 4Nov 09, 2015 2:52 pm t_parsons Thanks for replying. Yep our lawyers advised their lawyer won't be able to appear for them, still concerned about the influence he might have over the other members that may affect our case. I keep hearing VCAT does not always produce a fair outcome so that's our concern when it comes to spending the money. Nope, not fun at all - very stressful and made worse by the fact that we thought we investigated builders thoroughly! Thanks for your advice Fair is relative. There has been at least two cases recently in VCAT that have resulted in orders to knock down and rebuild. Where these are At the moment i dont know, but I suspect appealed and dragging. On the influence side of things, i wouldnt worry too much. Professionals such as lawyers tend to be fairly protective of their reputations. I would suspect that any influence would be obvious and detrimental to the builders lawyer. I wouldnt be surprised if they took a wide berth on the individual issue. It will come down to the evidence and facts. You both have engineers with conflicting reports. Expect VCAT to order its own report and act on that reccomendation. You only need to ensure (somehow) that the engineers that have been chosen by VCAT are not in anyway sympathetic towards the builder. You have to ask yourself what you want out of this. If its compensation or a knock down and rebuild, you will need to go down this path. if its simply to get rid of the asset, you dont have to go down this path. However, dont expect being able to get away with selling the asset at a reasonable value if its as truly bad as you state, if you can sell it at all. If you go down this path, you can also claim the costs. Just depends on your constitution and whether your lawyers feel positive about the outcome. Use your judgment, thats somehting you wont get from all the randoms here. Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: VCAT - experiences with significant foundation problems 5Nov 09, 2015 2:58 pm t_parsons I'm hoping someone on here can give me some information on what we can expect when we go to VCAT. no one can , because we are not lawyers who have seen your brief. t_parsons So, we had a preliminary report done by our structural engineer where it was found it would be more economical to knock the house down and start again. There you have it. So now you have to assess the feasability of that happening, and given that
you can bet he will in typical fashion, worm his/her way out of all responsibility. So 1. Get a specialist property lawyer to give you advice on your chances of forcing the builder to rebuild. 2. Investigate if it is possible to correct the slab heave via underpinning methods, because it may be cheaper to do that as a fix than go thru QCAT where a win might not guarantee you full recompense. t_parsons Another factor I should mention is that our builders lawyer is also a VCAT mediator. Irrelevant , he/she cannot participate in your case due to "conflict of interest" principles. t_parsons I keep hearing VCAT does not always produce a fair outcome so that's our concern when it comes to spending the money. Judges are very fair and impartial, however the degree to which they can exercise such a judgement depends very much on the efficacy of your case details. Where people say QCAT is not fair, it is because either they did not present their case well, and/or law has loopholes through which defendants escape (which gets back to point 1 above, to ensure you don't end up in that situation). Re: VCAT - experiences with significant foundation problems 6Nov 09, 2015 4:04 pm Yeah I've heard about those 2 cases, our lawyers were involved in one of them, as was our engineer. Nope that's the problem, we are going to lose considerable money either way whether we fight or sell the house for a loss. At this stage if we choose to stay in the house we will have to go to VCAT as fixing it is above the costs we've been quoted for VCAT. Guess we will just go with our lawyers advice and do all we can to ensure we are represented well. Then cross our fingers and hope for the best! Re: VCAT - experiences with significant foundation problems 7Nov 09, 2015 5:25 pm If you can show that the builder neglected to perform proper drainage from the start as required by the design engineer and AS2870 and show that the house is still moving you have a good case. There are at least two cases now that have set precedent Softly v Metricon,Hooper V Metricon.You could receive a pay out and your house may stop moving some time in the future. You can't fix a heave slab by underpinning it. Re: VCAT - experiences with significant foundation problems 8Nov 11, 2015 4:00 pm t_parsons Nope that's the problem, we are going to lose considerable money either way whether we fight or sell the house for a loss. To be sure you dont end up in this situation if you ever build again, next time hire your own building inspector to check through all stages of the build. Re: VCAT - experiences with significant foundation problems 9Nov 12, 2015 5:54 am Who is the builder? Do they have a good reputation to protect? I feel so bad for you. I am building at the moment on H2 site and slab heave is my biggest concern. I am also on a waffle slab in the north of Melbourne suburbs on crappy expansive clay on volcanic plains. Re: VCAT - experiences with significant foundation problems 10Nov 12, 2015 6:29 pm t_parsons Our next step is to start spending big money, get a full report done, more levels and go to VCAT. Advice from our lawyers is that despite having a strong case, going to VCAT is risky (perhaps more risky than patching the house and selling). And will cost in the vicinity of $80K+. First, did you take photos of the builder's breach of AS2870 compliance? Photos are invaluable. Go through whatever photos you have and also look to see whether they failed to install temporary downpipes once the roof was on. Re your lawyers, you have stated that they have experience with slab heave cases which is good. Are they also one of the groups that is instigating slab heave class actions and is your builder one of the bigger name ones? 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: VCAT - experiences with significant foundation problems 12Nov 13, 2015 7:59 am Hi t_parsons Sorry to hear your predicament it's unfortunate that there are so many complaints regarding poor workmanship and slab heave. For those that Read these threads, I cant stress (no pun) enough how important it is for new home builders to take proper photos, measurements and have them checked before things are covered, concreted, buried, etc,etc Its ironic that I see great photos of kitchen cabinets and lousy photos of reinforcement..obviously the message is not getting through BTW..No one remembers what was done on site in court 12 months down the track... Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: VCAT - experiences with significant foundation problems 13Nov 13, 2015 8:43 am The builder is a small local builder who has a very good reputation. We thought we did our homework and chose someone that builds quality home and paid extra for it. Unfortunately that didn't occur with our build. They usually don't do waffle slabs which was one of the things we liked about them but when the soil report came back they told us a waffle with piers wouldn't move so we trusted them! Plus it was done by an engineer so we figured it must be ok. I don't really want to name them at this point since we are going through the legal process but when the time comes and if I'm able to will definitely share as I don't want others to go through what we have gone through. We do have good photos throughout the build of everything not just the pretty stuff I think at this point our builders are trying to scare us off taking it further as they know we have to outlay considerable funds for the next step which is why they are saying there are no problems even though we have evidence. Our lawyers aren't involved in the class actions but we have discussed them. SaveH2O, we have photos after the roof was put on where temporary downpipes were not installed and it seems it went on for at least a couple of months without them. I'm not sure we'll ever build again after this experience! But if we do we will make sure to have a building inspector there at every stage! I guess we were a bit complacent this time because we did so much homework choosing a builder and thought we didn't need it. How wrong we were!! Re: VCAT - experiences with significant foundation problems 14Nov 13, 2015 9:02 am t_parsons We do have good photos throughout the build of everything not just the pretty stuff ..... they are saying there are no problems even though we have evidence. Good photos great, you will also need to prove links between cause and effect and time based indeterminate events/failures.. multiphysics simulations should assist you with supporting evidence.Goodluck further information on FEA simulations here https://plus.google.com/u/2/+ChrisBIMAppsB4UBuild/posts Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: VCAT - experiences with significant foundation problems 15Nov 13, 2015 10:47 am Thanks StructuralBIMGuy. I think that's our next step, we'll get a full report that will hopefully detail those things. I'll check out that link below, thanks! Re: VCAT - experiences with significant foundation problems 16Nov 13, 2015 11:42 am The engineering specified the piers were to be tied to the slab, however we know this was not done (forgotten, though when questioned, told they aren't required and it was over engineered - photo evidence). End of quote. Well that will be a big hurdle for your builder to jump. If the slab wasn't done to engineering specifications and you later had slab heave then the builder has some explaining to do. I am no engineer but am building. My slab is not tied to my piers but that instruction was not placed on my engineering of slab. I can understand that is the slab is just sitting on top of piers then there is nothing preventing the slab being lifted off the tops of the piers if such conditions existed to cause this. I am a H2 site so am aware expansion for me could be 65 or so mm of clays. I have only seen lots of bored and poured piers without any tying to the slab. I wasn't even aware that engineering can (and does obviously) require piers to be tied to the stab with steel. My best wishes to you on this battle. What absolute heartache and stress. Re: VCAT - experiences with significant foundation problems 17Nov 23, 2015 12:21 pm Hi t_parsons, When going to VCAT you will need expert(s) who are actually expert. You will need to test them before hiring them I strongly suggest. A barrister who is expert is also a vital necessity and he/she may know those building consultants who are expert. An expert who has a full definition of defect is a necessity. Most hide behind one liners by authorities, but defect means at least items that do not comply with implied warranties (Contracts Guarantee Act 1995). These include at least good workmanship, good quality materials, compliance with soil report, structural drawings, truss engineering drawings, compliance with manufacturer specifications, compliance with your drawings and specifications and contract (bet there are no workmanship clauses in your specs) and inferior alternative solutions PLUS systems are supposed to last a reasonable amount of time... so experienced consultants are usually needed. Good luck... Cheers Re: VCAT - experiences with significant foundation problems 18Nov 23, 2015 12:28 pm Hi t_parsons, You will also need to get the best soil engineer I suggest if it involves heave. P is OK to a point, but Appendix D of the code AS2870 may come into play and sometimes the 1500mm deep piers should have been 2300mm deep. Your structural engineer will need to find out it the depth of your piers was sufficient... hence the best soil engineer is needed. Hope that helps, but the degree of the movement is also vital information, hoping that helps... if you are going to go to VCAT at all. Without the best experts, forget it might be good advice.... Cheers Re: VCAT - experiences with significant foundation problems 19Jan 15, 2016 2:28 am t_parsons The builder is a small local builder who has a very good reputation. We thought we did our homework and chose someone that builds quality home and paid extra for it. Unfortunately that didn't occur with our build. They usually don't do waffle slabs which was one of the things we liked about them but when the soil report came back they told us a waffle with piers wouldn't move so we trusted them! Plus it was done by an engineer so we figured it must be ok. I don't really want to name them at this point since we are going through the legal process but when the time comes and if I'm able to will definitely share as I don't want others to go through what we have gone through. We do have good photos throughout the build of everything not just the pretty stuff I think at this point our builders are trying to scare us off taking it further as they know we have to outlay considerable funds for the next step which is why they are saying there are no problems even though we have evidence. Our lawyers aren't involved in the class actions but we have discussed them. SaveH2O, we have photos after the roof was put on where temporary downpipes were not installed and it seems it went on for at least a couple of months without them. I'm not sure we'll ever build again after this experience! But if we do we will make sure to have a building inspector there at every stage! I guess we were a bit complacent this time because we did so much homework choosing a builder and thought we didn't need it. How wrong we were!! Your story sounds IDENTICAL to mine. Same soil type, slab design..... damaged defective property..... Even down to the fact our Builders lawyer is also a mediator at VCAT. I agree it's a huge conflict of interest and yet nothing stops it. I have been going through VCAT for 3 years. The strain on finances/health/marriage/relationships etc. Has pretty much taken its toll. The worst part is even with all the evidence in the world, there is no guarantee that you won't be financially ruined even though you're the innocent party. OR...the Builder can deregister and start a new business in the future with a new name. On a non related note. Perhaps have a read of this article. Take special note on the article: Dona Homes (vic) and Dona Homes (Aust) are not related http://m.smh.com.au/business/property/d ... 1x5oe.html But within this article you will see that the Victorian government lacks utter protection for the consumer. However if you went to a car yard and brought a car without brakes, or the shops and brought a bag with a broken zip, or purchased a product that was defective...... consumer Affairs Victoria would be there to help you and protect you 100% But build or buy a home and discover its a defective or non compliant house and you're on your own. Left to foot the financial bill and to add salt to the wounds .... justice comes with a pricetag to those who have the deepest pockets. If you cannot afford the legal battle and let's face it many can't. Then there is no punishment for the Builder, surveyor, engineer etc. All of which ... if each had of correctly followed the Laws relevant to them .... then you wouldn't have to argue to get what you've already paid for. But they have moved on to the next poor consumer. The only thing I personally belive that VCAT provides is experience to the Builder. I have files upon files of information on this topic. If you want anything else, or to compare 'expert reports' etc feel free to send me a message. And lastly, I am truly sorry for the situation that you're in, I feel your pain. Re: VCAT - experiences with significant foundation problems 20Jan 15, 2016 2:40 am insider If you can show that the builder neglected to perform proper drainage from the start as required by the design engineer and AS2870 and show that the house is still moving you have a good case. There are at least two cases now that have set precedent Softly v Metricon,Hooper V Metricon.You could receive a pay out and your house may stop moving some time in the future. You can't fix a heave slab by underpinning it. The SOFTLEY v Metricon case is still waiting the decision of the Appeal at the supreme Court. I am not aware if the same applies to the outcome of the hooper vs Metricon case also. (But both houses are still currently standing) Just to makea point about this, an approach that some people have found sucessful in negotiating these rises down, Is to provide some workings to the builder, specifying… 4 81728 You have mandatory building inspections and privately engaged building inspections. The difference between the two comes down to inspecting the building so it's safe and… 3 18082 I am not a brick expert, but rendering would be 1 option, it would be costly to do the entire house though.... 2 6683 |