Browse Forums Building Standards; Getting It Right! 1 May 29, 2015 10:31 am With all of the issues I've had with sisalation recently, I've had a good opportunity to check the inside face of a lot of my brickwork. What I'm seeing a lot of is perpends on the internal face that seem to be almost void of mortar. Is this common and what are the requirements for mortar on the inside face? Most of the information I've read so far is with regards to the size of the perpend, not the amount of mortar used. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Thanks. Re: perpends and mortar on the inside face 2May 29, 2015 4:19 pm Hi dojrude The purps should be buttered up on both edges (internal and external) The masonry codes AS3700 allows for reduction factors in the structural calculations of the brickwork for quality of workmanship, strength of mortar, durability, etc,etc. IMO, a Structural engineer is the only person that can deem the brickwork as "fit for purpose." Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: perpends and mortar on the inside face 3May 31, 2015 12:23 pm But if it has to be buttered on both internal and external edges, doesn't that mean that mortar should be present on both of those edges once laid? I understand reduction factors, but it sounds like a rule designed to allow poor quality work. Aren't there any rules/standards that dictate how close to the face of the brick (internal and external) mortar must be present? I reckon some of the holes in my perpends are so big that I could put half a finger in to them. Doesn't this also have a knock on effect to the insulation of the home if the mortar is so thin at the edges? I've since found out that the bricklayer who laid these bricks is no longer employed by my builder due to too many issues with the work he has done. They have however told me that they will not redo my brickwork and sisalation correctly, despite the fact that all of the issues I've had with failing lock-up inspection has come from the quality of the brickwork. Re: perpends and mortar on the inside face 5May 31, 2015 5:10 pm The problem I have is that without knowing the NCC/AS/BCA standards it's almost impossible for me to force the builder to do anything. I need to be sure that these don't comply with the regulations before I can do anything. I know the AS standards are available at libraries and for download for about $200 each, but is there anywhere online they can be viewed (24hr rental or similar)? Re: perpends and mortar on the inside face 6May 31, 2015 7:48 pm Hey guys, Been having a dig around the web tonight and managed to find the following article which references AS3700-2011; http://www.thinkbrick.com.au/system/uploads/files/21/original.pdf?1423026742 Under section 4.2 it mentions raking as can be seen below; Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Is this raking requirement applicable to the missing mortar on the perpend? Could the missing mortar be classed as raking that exceeds 10mm and therefore not to standard? Re: perpends and mortar on the inside face 7May 31, 2015 7:55 pm I had already found that document but was not sure that it could be used as a formal document because it is not part of the NCC or Australian Standards. Re: perpends and mortar on the inside face 8May 31, 2015 8:21 pm I've found some other documents which also reference AS3700 which state; "Bricks are laid on a full bed of mortar and with a full perpend." But again, I don't think they would be accepted. I really need to get hold of AS3700-2011 and have a full read. Perhaps it might be time to join a library. Re: perpends and mortar on the inside face 9May 31, 2015 8:34 pm IMHO, and i've been in the building industry for 35+ years and if it were my house, I couldn't care less, as long as they have done a neat job on the outside. Because I know regardless of whats written in the books and what the so called experts say, that it wont make a spot of difference. Re: perpends and mortar on the inside face 10Jun 01, 2015 8:53 am dojrude I understand reduction factors, but it sounds like a rule designed to allow poor quality work. Reductions factors along with probability are used because we dont live in a perfect world. Engineers are required to predict/analyze every possible failure mode.. I am sure if they look hard enough they will find one.It is amazing what can be analyzed/predicted with software, simulations and data these days. Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: perpends and mortar on the inside face 11Jun 02, 2015 9:41 am mgilla IMHO, and i've been in the building industry for 35+ years and if it were my house, I couldn't care less, as long as they have done a neat job on the outside. Because I know regardless of whats written in the books and what the so called experts say, that it wont make a spot of difference. As usual I have differences of opinion with mgilla Good bricklaying among other things requires full bed of mortar and perpends to be full. I happen to know that builders are paid well (really well) to do a good job and there is no excuse for sloppy workmanship and for not fixing it. I also know that in business you should always try to do your best and improve or otherwise you will regress. To say "oh well near enough is good enough" is in my view a sign of defeatism and regression and you should get out and try something else. I think it is the beginning of the loss of respect for the customer and for yourself. I am thankful though we don't have (god forbid) mgilla airways or doctor's clinics. I don't think it is too much to ask that customer not only gets a good job but also has the comfort of knowing it is well done. Just my two bob. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: perpends and mortar on the inside face 12Jun 02, 2015 11:11 am Thanks for the input buildingexpert, it's nice to see someone who cares about quality. The issue I still have though, is in it's current state is it acceptable or unacceptable inregards to BCA/AS/NCC etc? I can't see them even listening to me unless it's not up to standard, let alone resolve the issue. I get the impression that brick veneer walls are not structural and are only classed as cosmetic. Even so, I would still like it to be built properly if the builder is required to do so as not only does it make me feel better about the quality of the build, but it means there's less chance of problems happening in the future because of poor quality job being done initially. If this was your inspection buildingexpert would you pass it or throw it back to the builder for rectification? Thanks. Re: perpends and mortar on the inside face 13Jun 02, 2015 11:27 am dojrude The issue I still have though, is in it's current state is it acceptable or unacceptable inregards to BCA/AS/NCC etc? The BCA is part 1 & 2 of the NCC. The PCA is part 3. Just be careful about referencing Australian Standards in any discussions. Australian Standards are compiled by Standards Australia, a private company and unless the AS have been called up into legislation or are referenced in the contract, they have no legal standing. If they are referenced in the contract, then the lesser tolerances between the BCA and the AS are acceptable. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: perpends and mortar on the inside face 14Jun 02, 2015 11:56 am SaveH2O dojrude The issue I still have though, is in it's current state is it acceptable or unacceptable inregards to BCA/AS/NCC etc? The BCA is part 1 & 2 of the NCC. The PCA is part 3. Just be careful about referencing Australian Standards in any discussions. Australian Standards are compiled by Standards Australia, a private company and unless the AS have been called up into legislation or are referenced in the contract, they have no legal standing. If they are referenced in the contract, then the lesser tolerances between the BCA and the AS are acceptable. I've managed to download the NCC (3 parts). Are you saying that BCA is book 1 and 2? Am I looking at the book for Class 1 buildings? I don't suppose you have the specific item numbers do you? (12.2/14.3 etc?) The NCC documents don't see to go in to much detail, just referencing other documents. Also, what is the PCA? Apologies, I'm a bit new to all of this. Thanks. Re: perpends and mortar on the inside face 15Jun 02, 2015 2:37 pm The Plumbing Code of Australia (PCA) is volume 3 of the National Construction Code (NCC). I am not a fan of the BCA or some of the contents, it in not well set out in parts and some of the BCA 'solutions' are sub standard in my opinion. It does reference many other (proprietary) documents as you have noticed and this can be very frustrating to someone in your position. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: perpends and mortar on the inside face 16Jun 02, 2015 5:01 pm Thanks SaveH20. You've pointed me in the right direction, but unfortunately the NCC references that the construction must be designed and constructed in accordance with AS3700, which is what I don't have access to. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Looks like I need to be able to read AS3700 to get any in-depth details on exactly how the construction should be done. Re: perpends and mortar on the inside face 17Jun 02, 2015 5:30 pm Yes, it's very frustrating when you need the whole manual to reference a single Standard that is subject to copyright. I can't help unfortunately because I don't have the manual that you require as this is not in my area of work. Maybe someone else will have. Good luck. EDIT: Just a thought, why not give the brick manufacturer a call or else go see them if they are nearby. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: perpends and mortar on the inside face 18Jun 02, 2015 6:05 pm building-expert mgilla IMHO, and i've been in the building industry for 35+ years and if it were my house, I couldn't care less, as long as they have done a neat job on the outside. Because I know regardless of whats written in the books and what the so called experts say, that it wont make a spot of difference. As usual I have differences of opinion with mgilla Good bricklaying among other things requires full bed of mortar and perpends to be full. I happen to know that builders are paid well (really well) to do a good job and there is no excuse for sloppy workmanship and for not fixing it. I also know that in business you should always try to do your best and improve or otherwise you will regress. To say "oh well near enough is good enough" is in my view a sign of defeatism and regression and you should get out and try something else. I think it is the beginning of the loss of respect for the customer and for yourself. I am thankful though we don't have (god forbid) mgilla airways or doctor's clinics. I don't think it is too much to ask that customer not only gets a good job but also has the comfort of knowing it is well done. Just my two bob. Yeah because planes are falling out of sky everyday because they didn't fill the perps on brick work. As usual your driving a wedge between the owner and a builder over something you know is trivial just so you can say you need to get in an independent inspector, and by the way here is my card. Re: perpends and mortar on the inside face 19Jun 02, 2015 7:36 pm I already have an independent inspector mgilla. The problem is that when he inspects the build again, the sisalation will be back on the wall and he won't be able to see the inside quality of the brickwork. I'm just trying to understand what is the requirement for BCA/AS/NCC etc and whether my builder has complied with those regulations. Like every one else on this forum I'm building a house and am spending a very large amount of money doing it. I just want to make sure that I'm getting a quality job for my money that's in line with what the regulations require and am not being fobbed off by my builder that their poor quality is an acceptable job. Re: perpends and mortar on the inside face 20Jun 02, 2015 7:42 pm Have you sent some photos to your inspector? Our inspector was happy for me to do so. 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