Browse Forums Building Standards; Getting It Right! 1 Feb 11, 2015 5:31 am Purpose of wall and ceiling insulation is to protect your home from the worst of heat gain/loss, to maintain temperature stability in your home and give you comfort. You would think that installation of insulation would be done with skill and care and when you are holding insulation certificate your home would be meeting energy efficiency standards as specified in your report. Well do I have some news for you? Most new homes have defective ceiling insulation and this is not being picked up by many inspectors. This is a big statement and I am making it from nearly a decade of inspection experience with thermal imaging camera. Just this week on three of pre final inspections this is what I found (2 photos/house,all in different locations, all 2 storey 400K homes) White areas on photos represent heat gain where insulation is missing and grey areas where it is in place. Bottom photo shows wall insulation missing (That will be hard to fix). Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Some inspectors( some frequently mentioned on this forum) will tell you they walk on the roof and crawl in roof spaces but how will they get past heating/cooling ducting and into areas with low clearances. Don't buy it. The plain fact is they have not invested in the best equipment to inspect your home. So next time you are holding your through the roof energy bills (Winter or Summer) who do you think will be whistling Dixy? Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Most new homes have defective ceiling insulation 2Feb 11, 2015 5:40 am In my last house it was all in the roof . . . but not well installed in many places, especially where a tradie had done some work and then not replaced it! The Harder You Try - the Luckier You Get ! Web site http://www.anewhouse.com.au Informative, Amusing, and Opinionated Blog - Over 600 posts on all aspects of building a new house. Re: Most new homes have defective ceiling insulation 3Feb 11, 2015 6:00 am So what's the solution then? How can we protect ourselves? I mean.. who's to say one inspector is better than another when they all carry inspector licences and awards and all that stuff that is effectively useless if they skimp on a job? I mean... you're paying these people to come in and inspect because you are not highly experienced in inspecting... I can pick up on obvious issues but I would be paying an inspector to come in check this stuff.. how can we be sure they are doing the job properly? Paddington 29 @ Blue Horizon Estate (Lot 105, Wattleridge Crescent, North Kellyville) Our Build Progress Blog: http://light487.wordpress.com/ Re: Most new homes have defective ceiling insulation 4Feb 11, 2015 6:43 am light487 So what's the solution then? How can we protect ourselves? I mean.. who's to say one inspector is better than another when they all carry inspector licences and awards and all that stuff that is effectively useless if they skimp on a job? I mean... you're paying these people to come in and inspect because you are not highly experienced in inspecting... I can pick up on obvious issues but I would be paying an inspector to come in check this stuff.. how can we be sure they are doing the job properly? When I was a young QS freshly out of uni and working for a major builder, they had weekly ads for carpenters and other trades. Every Monday they would be interviewed by an old foreman. He would simply say show me your toolbox. Then it was either there is the door out or see this bloke he will start you. To answer your question do your homework and ask for : qualifications, experience, references,professional indemnity insurance and equipment. If they have not invested in their education and tools of trade how serious are they about doing their best for you? Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Most new homes have defective ceiling insulation 5Feb 11, 2015 7:53 am light487 So what's the solution then? How can we protect ourselves? I mean.. who's to say one inspector is better than another when they all carry inspector licences and awards and all that stuff that is effectively useless if they skimp on a job? I mean... you're paying these people to come in and inspect because you are not highly experienced in inspecting... I can pick up on obvious issues but I would be paying an inspector to come in check this stuff.. how can we be sure they are doing the job properly? like anything in this world, do some due diligence. Not hard. People are under the assumption in this age that if they pay somone for something then it should be fine. Whats ironic is that since the dawn of time people have been getting screwed by people they pay to do a job. I have no idea why due diligence doesnt come to mind in almost everything people do. Anything that costs me more than a few hundred bucks, I research to make sure that what im getting is good. Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: Most new homes have defective ceiling insulation 6Feb 11, 2015 8:05 am Ponzu light487 So what's the solution then? How can we protect ourselves? I mean.. who's to say one inspector is better than another when they all carry inspector licences and awards and all that stuff that is effectively useless if they skimp on a job? I mean... you're paying these people to come in and inspect because you are not highly experienced in inspecting... I can pick up on obvious issues but I would be paying an inspector to come in check this stuff.. how can we be sure they are doing the job properly? like anything in this world, do some due diligence. Not hard. People are under the assumption in this age that if they pay somone for something then it should be fine. Whats ironic is that since the dawn of time people have been getting screwed by people they pay to do a job. I have no idea why due diligence doesnt come to mind in almost everything people do. Anything that costs me more than a few hundred bucks, I research to make sure that what im getting is good. Yes, of course. Saying "due diligence" or "research them" is pointless if the person doing the due diligence or research doesn't know what to look for. Like I said, all these people have licences, they have to.. I've met more than my fair share of people who I either suspect or actually know are not knowledgeable and/or incompetent at their job and yet have a certification or licence to say they are competent. As per the previous reply, there are things to look out for and it's this kind of response I was looking for. What do I look for when doing my due diligence? What kind of questions should I ask them to weed out the bad ones? Building inspection is a field I am not familiar with. If you knew nothing about computers, at all, how would know one way or the other who was a good or bad PC repair person? Same with car mechanics? How do you know they are not charging you extra because you are ignorant of car repairs and so on. Due diligence is only as good as the knowledge of the person performing the due diligence. Paddington 29 @ Blue Horizon Estate (Lot 105, Wattleridge Crescent, North Kellyville) Our Build Progress Blog: http://light487.wordpress.com/ Re: Most new homes have defective ceiling insulation 7Feb 11, 2015 1:04 pm light487 Yes, of course. Saying "due diligence" or "research them" is pointless if the person doing the due diligence or research doesn't know what to look for. You misunderstand what is required from Due Diligence. if you know nothing, or very little about the subject, any due diligence you perform will be limited and sometimes downright uninformed. When a company is being sold, the potential buyers often hire teams of auditors and "experts" to go ove rthe company with a fine tooth comb. Asking questions, challenging answers etc. When biddrrs are comfortable, they will make an offer. Often due diligence turns up reasosn to lowball the sellr or to avoid them entirely. You cannot do Due Diligenece without *SOME* understanding. If you lack understanding then you can approach from a different way - In the example of Inspectors, if you have zero idea of what to look for, a few things to considder are: 1. how long have they been operating 2. how long has the business been registered and operating (is the inspector "experienced" yet his business inspection business is registered only 8 months ago? Why?) 3. What services does the inspector offer? Equipment available? Aditional certifications? Age (this last one because if they are older, there should be some evidence of CPD or aditional learning, if there is none, i would question whether they are inspecting using knowledge of the acts from 30 years ago) 4. has the inspector been utilised as an expert witness in disputes? What wa sthe outcome? Why? Was it becaus ethey were prepared and the othe rparty wasnt? or was it because they were ultimately right? makes a difference 5. how many times has their expert testimony been used? 6. If you need more, Call them ask them hairy questions. Do the answers sound right or are they umming and ahhing? light487 Like I said, all these people have licences, they have to.. I've met more than my fair share of people who I either suspect or actually know are not knowledgeable and/or incompetent at their job and yet have a certification or licence to say they are competent. As per the previous reply, there are things to look out for and it's this kind of response I was looking for. A lisence means they met teh criteria as some stage and have a minimum prerequisite knowledge of what they are doing. This makes them more *likley* to be knowledgable in the field that somone who doesnt hold a lisence. How many drivers are on the road? are they all good drivers? light487 Building inspection is a field I am not familiar with. If you knew nothing about computers, at all, how would know one way or the other who was a good or bad PC repair person? Same with car mechanics? How do you know they are not charging you extra because you are ignorant of car repairs and so on. Due diligence is only as good as the knowledge of the person performing the due diligence. Correct - hence you need to become more knowledgable about the topic you are performing due diligence on. Outside of this you could rely on other peoples opinions, but then youre placing your trust in whether they did their due diligence appropriately. Youre building a house. can you afford NOT to become interested and engaged in topics from site scrapes to how much water should be draining down each downpipe? Its a very infomrative and interesting journey. Not as horrible and boring as some people might think Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: Most new homes have defective ceiling insulation 8Feb 11, 2015 1:13 pm light487 If you knew nothing about computers, at all, how would know one way or the other who was a good or bad PC repair person? Same with car mechanics? How do you know they are not charging you extra because you are ignorant of car repairs and so on. personally - when I learned my friends were building computers more powerfull than the ones advertised at sometimes half teh advertised price, i learned to build my own aswell. A week worth of reading about how to do it wass all that was required On mechanics, there is some stuff you can also learn about yourself. You need to know how a combustion engine works, what hoses do what and various minor things lik ehow to do an oil change (and conversly to know what the oil;d looks like when it goes in vs at th eend of its use). Also if you have friends that are mechanics you can talk to them about cars and get their opinion on fixes and changes required under your service before you OK the mechanic you are paying to do the work. I get some people dont have this drive or time, but I guarantee you it saves you all the uncertainty and supports you in making educated decisions you are comfortable with without stressing about whethe ryou are getting ripped off. if knowledge is power, why wouldnt you make an effort to learn about this stuff? I find relying on other people for the "answer" debilitating. Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: Most new homes have defective ceiling insulation 9Feb 11, 2015 5:13 pm light487 es, of course. Saying "due diligence" or "research them" is pointless if the person doing the due diligence or research doesn't know what to look for. Like I said, all these people have licences, they have to.. I've met more than my fair share of people who I either suspect or actually know are not knowledgeable and/or incompetent at their job and yet have a certification or licence to say they are competent. As per the previous reply, there are things to look out for and it's this kind of response I was looking for. What do I look for when doing my due diligence? What kind of questions should I ask them to weed out the bad ones? Building inspection is a field I am not familiar with. If you knew nothing about computers, at all, how would know one way or the other who was a good or bad PC repair person? Same with car mechanics? How do you know they are not charging you extra because you are ignorant of car repairs and so on. Due diligence is only as good as the knowledge of the person performing the due diligence. +100 Re: Most new homes have defective ceiling insulation 10Feb 12, 2015 6:36 am Back to the ot... We have seen the walls with insulation in them before the gyprock is in. Is there a way to check based on a knock or sound check for wall insulation? Re: Most new homes have defective ceiling insulation 11Feb 12, 2015 7:14 am yvonneh Back to the ot... We have seen the walls with insulation in them before the gyprock is in. Is there a way to check based on a knock or sound check for wall insulation? The purpose of insulation is to prevent heat transfer between inside and outside of the home. In summer it should prevent heat gain and in winter heat loss. This is where thermal imaging camera comes in well because it will pick up inconsistencies in insulated areas (missing batt etc) However there must be difference in temperature between inside and outside or else nothing will show up. Many times on mild days inside and outside temps are the same and TI camera will not detect defects. Insulation between internal rooms will not be detected because evenness of temp. However this can be overcome if required with a gas blower (heating one room) To answer your question there is no reliable knock test however if if you have a DB (sound) meter you can set up a test to measure sound transmission between insulated and uninsulated rooms. It will tell you if there is any but not how well it is fitted of if there are gaps and won't help you with heat transmission. The beauty of TI is that it will tell you instantly (subject to temp difference) where is gap in insulation and the shape of it. It beats crawling in the roof space any day. Some judge inspectors on how much time they spend on the job. Apparently if they spend 2-3 hrs that is really good and virtuous. I have a different view. If you are experienced and know what to look for and have right equipment you will do your job a lot quicker than someone who isn't and hasn't. I am paid for my expertise, not to grow vegetables. In a VCAT case I was grilled by opposing barrister for spending only 20 min on a site for a defect report(apparently the theory was I didn't spend enough time for my report to be reliable) That was all I needed to show their case was $hit and they lost. (apparently they did not consider I have see it all before) Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Most new homes have defective ceiling insulation 12Feb 12, 2015 7:10 pm Ponzu light487 If you knew nothing about computers, at all, how would know one way or the other who was a good or bad PC repair person? Same with car mechanics? How do you know they are not charging you extra because you are ignorant of car repairs and so on. personally - when I learned my friends were building computers more powerfull than the ones advertised at sometimes half teh advertised price, i learned to build my own aswell. A week worth of reading about how to do it wass all that was required On mechanics, there is some stuff you can also learn about yourself. You need to know how a combustion engine works, what hoses do what and various minor things lik ehow to do an oil change (and conversly to know what the oil;d looks like when it goes in vs at th eend of its use). Also if you have friends that are mechanics you can talk to them about cars and get their opinion on fixes and changes required under your service before you OK the mechanic you are paying to do the work. I get some people dont have this drive or time, but I guarantee you it saves you all the uncertainty and supports you in making educated decisions you are comfortable with without stressing about whethe ryou are getting ripped off. if knowledge is power, why wouldnt you make an effort to learn about this stuff? I find relying on other people for the "answer" debilitating. Just because you research how to build a house.... It won't make you a builder! If you want a home built, then you research an hire a qualified builder. But at the end of the day .... QUALIFIED BUILDERS SHOULD build a house to the quality and specifications that were contracted. The consumer SHOULD get what they paid for. the HOUSE SHOULD meet AUSTRALIAN STANDARDS and anything less than that SHOULD be deemed a breach of contract and the builder SHOULD be made ACCOUNTABLE without further financial loss to the detriment of the consumer who has upheld their obligations under the Contract and paid the builder! Call me crazy but shouldn't it not be that simple? If you went to Myer and brought a toaster for $200 and it was meant to cook 4 slices but when you went to use it only 2 worked adequately..... You would return the toaster, it would be deemed defective and you would receive your full money back - under Australian consumer protection laws. However if you built a home for $200,000 and it was deemed defective it costs the consumer further because in my experience, I've found there is very little to no consumer protection in Victoria. The excessive costs and processes that consumers incur when it comes to builders clearly breaching the contract is unjust in a very much protected industry. If you hired an accountant to do your tax, do you then go and research each tax law that may or may not apply to your situation? Or is it fair to say that you would believe that the accountant has the skills and knowledge to adequately do their job that you are paying them for? Why is a builder any different? Re: Most new homes have defective ceiling insulation 13Feb 12, 2015 7:11 pm In Victoria, is it a legal requirement for all external walls to contain insulation? Re: Most new homes have defective ceiling insulation 14Feb 12, 2015 9:11 pm Slab heave recipient - what should happen and what does happen are two different things. Your experience is testament to that. Its a tough life lesson. Why go around yelling what "should" happen from the mountains when it is clear that protecting yourself via knowledge and education is the far better move? If you had your chance again, knowing what you know now, would you go about it based on what "should" happen? Didnt think so. if you eat healthy and look after yourself you shouldn't need health insurance either, right? Risk minimisation/mitigation is the name of the game. You either take a gamble and win. No harm done. Or you lose. Big. So yeah, I think ill go about researching to the nth degree to help me better understand things that are going on around me that have the potential to impact my life significantly. Btw I do my own tax....yes researching what you can deduct under my specific situations gets me better returns. Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: Most new homes have defective ceiling insulation 15Feb 12, 2015 9:18 pm building-expert [ He would simply say show me your toolbox. Then it was either there is the door out or see this bloke he will start you. So moral of the story is judge a book by it's cover? I've come across plenty of tradespeople with lots of flash gear that are useless. The tag line is "all the gear, no idea". No matter how much experience someone has in hiring and firing, the proof is in the pudding. A day or 2's work will quickly show how good people are. Re: Most new homes have defective ceiling insulation 16Feb 12, 2015 9:27 pm Slab Heave Recipient [ If you hired an accountant to do your tax, do you then go and research each tax law that may or may not apply to your situation? Or is it fair to say that you would believe that the accountant has the skills and knowledge to adequately do their job that you are paying them for? Why is a builder any different? Umm, I don't agree with this example, Have you ever read the bit the accountant makes you sign declaring YOU agree everything is true? The ATO doesn't chase your accountant, they chase you Re: Most new homes have defective ceiling insulation 17Feb 12, 2015 9:36 pm Ponzu Slab heave recipient - what should happen and what does happen are two different things. Your experience is testament to that. Its a tough life lesson. Why go around yelling what "should" happen from the mountains when it is clear that protecting yourself via knowledge and education is the far better move? If you had your chance again, knowing what you know now, would you go about it based on what "should" happen? Didnt think so. if you eat healthy and look after yourself you shouldn't need health insurance either, right? Risk minimisation/mitigation is the name of the game. You either take a gamble and win. No harm done. Or you lose. Big. So yeah, I think ill go about researching to the nth degree to help me better understand things that are going on around me that have the potential to impact my life significantly. Btw I do my own tax....yes researching what you can deduct under my specific situations gets me better returns. I agree with what you are saying to a degree.... I've done my own tax before, and fixed my own cars, I've also changed peripherals in computers and many more things out of the scope of my day to day life. But you must realise not everyone is or thinks the same. Some people just have no interest in topics out of their scope and that's ok. Some people simply do wish to trust where they spend their money and there is always someone no matter what the field that will let down a customers expectations. For the record, I now would rather get the mechanic to service my car, the accountant to do most of my tax, and I'll send simply go buy a new computer when mine packs it in because it's cheaper now days. But I do agree that my previous dabbling in many areas has made me a little more life smart Re: Most new homes have defective ceiling insulation 18Feb 12, 2015 9:36 pm But who chases the builder???? No one except the consumer! Yes and accountant does make you sign to agree, after all you are the person declaring the entire financial status is told in full. Unlike the self-certification that goes on in The building industry. After all, have you ever heard of a tradesman not certify because he didn't do a job correctly? Re: Most new homes have defective ceiling insulation 19Feb 12, 2015 9:50 pm 33amc But you must realise not everyone is or thinks the same. Some people just have no interest in topics out of their scope and that's ok. Some people simply do wish to trust where they spend their money and there is always someone no matter what the field that will let down a customers expectations. But I do agree that my previous dabbling in many areas has made me a little more life smart this is what im highlighting though; if its one thing you "should" be involved in, if nothing else, it should be the home youre paying 100s of ks for. Ironically what people "should" and actually do is mostly different. No skin of my nose if someone else takes the gamble and loses off the back of what "should" have happened ,) Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: Most new homes have defective ceiling insulation 20Feb 12, 2015 9:52 pm Slab Heave Recipient But who chases the builder???? No one except the consumer! Yes and accountant does make you sign to agree, after all you are the person declaring the entire financial status is told in full. Unlike the self-certification that goes on in The building industry. After all, have you ever heard of a tradesman not certify because he didn't do a job correctly? So knowing this would you trust that what should happen actually does? Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Thank you. That is really helpful. Once we get the place done and passed for OC we can upgrade in the future once we get back on our feet and not paying mortgage and rent. 4 5712 The worst thing you can do is sign a building contract without a pre contract review. Over the years many people have come to me with disputes where they just signed… 0 8336 Found the answer. The recommended distance is .... 1 5954 |