Browse Forums Building Standards; Getting It Right! 1 Feb 01, 2009 4:04 pm Hi
I'm wondering if anyone has advice or has had a similar experience to us. We have recently built our new house, and have been in just over 2 months. However we have noticed that the plaster walls chip extremely easily making the paint peel and bubble. We're in WA so our walls are internal brick, with the standard cement render and plaster finish. The photo below shows how the paint is peeling off in sheets, leaving exposed plaster below. On the right I tried putting a strip of masking tape on my sons wall and pulling it off. It peeled the paint right off without any hesitation, leaving exposed plaster below. Can anyone help advise what the problem may be? Is it the painters fault or is it likely to be a problem with the plaster? Any advise would be much appreciated Thanks! Re: Paint Peeling - Plaster too soft? 2Feb 01, 2009 6:10 pm HI amilelka, years ago there was a suggestion to leave plaster walls( our WA sort) for a few months before painting to ensure they were fully dried out and cured. But I think that was when houses were built much faster. I can't see how that would still apply given the extra months worth of time it takes to go from plaster to handover these days.
Sorry I don't remember how long the advice time was . Please repost if you find out the reason behind the problem as we hope to paint before we move in too. Last time we didn't paint for years but this time we want to do it straight away. I would hate this to happen. Blog http://wherethehearthis.blogspot.com/ Build https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=6634: Yard https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=27687&p=378401#p378401 Re: Paint Peeling - Plaster too soft? 3Feb 01, 2009 6:17 pm Thanks kexkez, this thought did cross my mind - but the thing is we waited at least three months from the plastering time to the painting time. I can't imagine it would need to be much more than this? Re: Paint Peeling - Plaster too soft? 4Feb 01, 2009 8:16 pm Was the plaster board sealed and undercoated?
That is typical of plasterboard that hasn't been sealed and undercoated, or cleaned prior to applying the paint... Electrical Engineer... Don't hold that against me... And keen owner builder... Mainly the building part!! Re: Paint Peeling - Plaster too soft? 5Feb 01, 2009 9:10 pm chuth77 in WA we don't use plaster board on double brick walls. It's the cement grey coat and then a plaster set stuff. not board. See the original post.
Hmm but on thinking about that. Did you use sealer on the walls first? Though all that not using sealer should a have done was make the first coat basically work as a sealer and suck right into the plaster. Re: Paint Peeling - Plaster too soft? 6Feb 01, 2009 10:00 pm I think the wall was sealed using an oil-based sealer. I am wondering if the painters cleaned the wall prior to painting or if there is a problem with the plaster itself. At the moment I don't know who to blame - the builders or the painters! Re: Paint Peeling - Plaster too soft? 7Feb 02, 2009 12:46 am Hi amilelka, did u have the house built under a building contract by a registered builder? if so this happening in such a short time has to be a maintenence item to be delt with buy the builder. if it was ur own build, definately contact the painter, again this happening so quickly there should be some guarentee on their work. i wouldn't attempt anything until u've tried to get it resolved by either of these 2.
re plaster drying - if u've been in the house 2 months, that means u moved in in Nov/Dec, 3 months prior to that would have been about Aug/Sep? in summer i would have left walls at least 3 months, winter i'd leave it for 6 mths. however, the painter should have been able to tell if it was damp. i have always been told that the first coat on plaster should be mineral based to "kill" any acid in the lime - so that seems ok to me. imo the painter should know whats caused this & should rectify the problem... cheers tony. Re: Paint Peeling - Plaster too soft? 8Feb 04, 2009 6:43 pm Quote: I think the wall was sealed using an oil-based sealer. I'm guessing here but acrylic (water based paints) will not successfully cover oil based paints, now whether that includes oil based sealers, only the experts will tell you. Oil based will cover acrylic though. Perhaps you could ask at a professional paint centre, not a hardware store. Arfur Re: Paint Peeling - Plaster too soft? 9Feb 07, 2011 11:50 pm It's been two years now since my original post and we have finally found the cause of the problem. I thought I'd post it here in case anyone else comes across the same issue. We had to spend several thousands of dollars worth of tests to the paint and plaster so that we can prove that the problem was caused by the builder and not by us or the painter. These tests found that an air entrainment agent (such as Calair) was mixed in with the float coat, and had also leached into the set coat which weakens the plaster. The air entrainment agent is essentially a type of detergent which forms bubbles of air that makes cement easier to trowel. It is intended for bricklaying, not for rendering but it is commonly used by many renderers in WA to improve workability. The float and set coat end up with thousands of tiny bubbles. The reason our paint was peeling off with a thin layer of plaster adhering was because of all these air voids in the plaster causing lack of strength. We have been trying to resolve this issue with the builder for two years now. They started off accepting responsibility, but suggested remediating the problem by simply painting the walls. Obviously that wasn't going to work, so we went to the building disputes tribunal where the builder just played games in order to stall the remedial process. Eventually they brought in a so called "expert" who without any scientific investigation blamed the problem on moisture. So now we have had to spend almost $5K on scientific test to prove the real cause. What made us the most angry is that the company initially told us that their plaster's had used an additive that weakened the plaster. They knew it all along but just wanted to deceive us, stall and put us through misery. Re: Paint Peeling - Plaster too soft? 10Dec 11, 2012 1:35 pm Hi amilelka, I know it's been a while since you posted your final message on this topic...but I'm hoping you can help. We're also having trouble with peeling paint, and - long story short - the painter is blaming the plasterer (& vice versa), and the Building Commission have told us that we need to get some testing done of our plaster. Who did you contact to get your scientific testing done? I'm also in WA - and don't even know where to start with this - so I'd really appreciate your help. Thanks Re: Paint Peeling - Plaster too soft? 12Dec 11, 2012 6:49 pm This is happening to a friend of mine, but she's renting this newly built house. Will let her know to inform the owners. What was the additive they used? I might email my builder and ask them not to use this additive. GOODLIFE - Bravo - BUTLER http://getmistyfied.blogspot.com.au Display 20/02/2012 PPA 01/04/12 Prestart: 25/07/12 Settlement: 31/07/2012 Contracts:August Slab 19/11/12 BRICKS 10/11/12 Roof 16/01/13 Re: Paint Peeling - Plaster too soft? 13Dec 12, 2012 11:55 am was the wall sealed first b4 painting with the colour paint? Re: Paint Peeling - Plaster too soft? 14Dec 13, 2012 9:00 am Plasterers should not use additives in their sand/cement mix at all. Lime can be added to improve workability but only up to a certain strength. It is a pretty inert type of substance and doesn't cause these sorts of problems. The old mix used to be 6 parts sand to 1 part cement and 1 part lime and good clean water. although I think these days they use a clay instead of the lime. I'm sure there are BCA regulations concerning additives to render mixtures and I would chase these down as another point to raise with the builder. AS 3700 masonry is what you should be looking at. Here is one link to a company that may be able to shed some light. http://www.sharpandhowells.com.au/mortar-testing.html Stewie Re: Paint Peeling - Plaster too soft? 15Apr 16, 2015 12:11 am I know this happened a long while back but we are now having the same issue. The builder is not interested in the plaster issue and so we now have to go down. The path of hiding a building inspector and a formal letter to the building tribunal. We are also in WA and we're just wondering if you were able to resolve your dispute with your builder? Thank you for taking the time to read this Re: Paint Peeling - Plaster too soft? 16Apr 24, 2015 7:38 pm Hi Melaqua Unfortunately render isnt a structural component and there are no codes to refer to..[Sorry] I see the same problem with brickwork where brickies use a lime and cement mortar and add calair? it should be one or the other never both.It sounds like the plasterer ran out of lime and decided to use a plasticizer instead.... IMO a no-no! Please leave a PM I am in WA Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Paint Peeling - Plaster too soft? 17Apr 26, 2015 1:58 am I am having similar problems here in WA.. if anyone wants to share what specific tests they got done that would be great. Photos in album here, sadly they don't seem to link properly inline: https://www.icloud.com/photostream/#A15nhQST7d1Sq Heres what I wrote in my thread and some pictures: Hi Folks, I am hoping some people may have either anecdotal or professional-level advice. We recently had a new home completed in Baldivis, WA about 6 months ago. We are having a *terrible* time with chipping paint and plaster off the walls all through the house. For clarity this is in WA where we are unique to most other states in that most houses are double brick, and the inside walls are basically brick, followed by a layer of concrete/cement about 5-10mm and then a 2-3mm layer of "Hardwall Plaster" to give it a flat white finish, similar looking to plasterboard but obviously very different. While it is certainly being caused by impact damage (something has hit the wall) it seems to be coming off *really* easily --- the worst case is in the laundry where the plastic laundry bins against the wall have taken out a horizontal strip in the entire corner just from sitting against the wall and being bumped into as we do the laundry. I've never had this much trouble in any rental I have ever lived in with tearing paint off the walls. Where there is no paint (it's already come away), I found that it is really easy to scrape away the plaster with my fingernail.. however in areas where I've used a plaster filler mixed from powder to fill channels cut in the walls for cabling, I cannot (it is rock hard in comparison). This also may sound extreme, but I tried taking the laundry baskets which are doing he worst damage in the laundry and if I hit the ridge against a normal wall area the paint and paint&plaster scrapes & dents off quite easily.. the same thing on my filled+painted areas (with the same paint) don't budge at all, even when hitting harder. I feel like they've used a poor composition of the hardwall plaster and I am considering bringing it up with the builders but I was hoping for some input on anyone else with experience with this to give me a bit more confidence in my concerns. Was also considering getting a building inspector to look at it as a one-off before taking it to the builders. Thanks! Re: Paint Peeling - Plaster too soft? 18Apr 26, 2015 9:17 am This may not be restricted to wa only, Suspended slabs require brickwork which is generally plastered (mixed wet)... standard throughout Australia. To be fair it could be a 1. Lime manufacturing problem 2. Site contamination problem 3. Deliberate careless workmanship 5. Simple mistake that was covered up Unfortunately, WA inspectors arent qualified nor licensed to deal with such problems as this is out side the BCA ( re NCC).As for the repair process you will need to...... 1.Identify and deal with root cause 2.Chip back the defective plaster and replaster 3.Gyrock/plasterboard over the defective plasterwork Either way this would be very expensive repairworK, having said this prevention is always better than cure (sadly,no cure here). So there are things you (homeowner) can do when you are on site taking construction photos...simple tests that construction (material) engineers use and immediately bring these concerns to the builders attention for his building suppliers reps/engineers. Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Paint Peeling - Plaster too soft? 19Apr 26, 2015 2:38 pm I'll leave it to someone like SBIMguy above with all the tech stuff but in my experience of sand/cement render followed by a white set over the top and the symptoms you list I'd say without doubt No.3. We've seen a few houses where to speed up the job and for ease of plastering the guys have either used too much lime or not enough cement in the first coat. This basically leads to the render being not very strong and easily dislodged. An easy way to test this is to chip off a section of the sand/cement plaster and have a look at the colour ( without any white set included ). If it is a medium to dark grey they have used lots of cement. A light grey and they haven't used enough. I'm pretty sure someone here on the forums will be able to point out the relevant AS indicating the minimum strength of render mix. Any lab would be able to tell you the proportions they have used on analysis. It is usually in the vicinity of 8 sand:2 cement:1 plasticiser depending on whether they used lime or not. If it is just the white set coming off, once again to speed up the job they may not have given the original render enough time to dry before doing the hardwall or have gotten their mix proportions or prep wrong. Stewie Re: Paint Peeling - Plaster too soft? 20Aug 14, 2015 6:13 pm I'm seeing the same problem in my home. Again the painter blamed the builder and vice versa. We used Duplux oil based plaster sealer but the paint still comes away very easily. I'm wondering if there are any other sealers on the market that will penetrate into the plaster and bond better. 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