Double glazing worth the $$ in Perth?

[quote="Dis":309hl4y7]Thank you for taking the time to reply to my message.
Again as mentioned before our biggest issue, and the reason why we have decided to invest in DG is the cold NOT the heat.
Although I'm sure you have experienced temperatures of minus 20° outside, if you have lived in Europe you would know that thanks to central heating and with the help of DG temperatures inside the house rarely go under 19/20°. This is not the case in Perth during winter. Where night temperatures inside the home in winter can drop even lower that 15°. Which to me feels uncomfortably cold. I am from Europe and inside my house I'm used to be comfortable, especially going to the bathroom in the morning. Again if you have grown up in these conditions and are used to battling a cold house during winter months, that's fine, but if you know there is a better reality out there, it's quite hard to make the switch.[/quote:309hl4y7] Yep, I've lived in Alpine environments in the US (down to -30C) & Europe (-20C). Living at a ski resort in Austria now. Always been comfortable in these houses in winter. Been far, far colder in Australian homes, which is ridiculous! Our building standards really have to be improved. It's happening, ever so slowly. It has to happen faster.

From an email of a customer who shared his experience, just outside of Sydney, from 4 years ago, who had 3 of our bushfire rated (a bit more expensive than entry level) upvc double glazed windows installed in only half of a single story 50 year old home (excluding spare bedroom, laundry, toilet, bathroom, garage windows) at a cost of around $1200 per large two panel window; electricity bill reduced by $90 in a 3 month period without any other insulation, since then electricity prices have jumped up around 20%. The reported difference in inside temperature of before and after the renovation is 8 deg C, without use of heating/cooling. Lowest measured outside temperature in winter was 12 degrees. Additional comfort reported (but not the main motivation for changing windows) was a reduction in outside noise from neighbouring kids and elimination of water damage after stormy weather of windows that previously regularly leaked. $3600/90=40 billing cycles = 10 years, assuming electricity prices do not go up for the entire period. Also, benefits could have been magnified if the entire home had the windows changed due to some windows facing south and west (which are prone to much more heat loss/gain) and had other insulation (which was planned for). If one is building just outside Sydney as a first home, with a view to grow a family and be comfortable, it makes a lot of sense to have our double glazed windows!

Would you be able to back this in front of ACCC? Because I could call this a false advertising.

EDIT:
"$3600/90=40 billing cycles = 10 years, assuming electricity prices do not go up for the entire period." <- $3600 today is not same as $3600 in 10 years! Electricity goes up, so does everything else. You could invest $3600 now and turn it into $36000 in 10 years period!

Yes, the temperatures in the houses in Europe can stay around 20°, but not because of the DG. They stay there because of the artificial heating i.e. central heating. It looks like you are expecting in Perth to use no heating at all and have 20° temperature even in winter. Even with triple glazing, you will not be able to achieve this without any heating. At least not in the real reality, the one where laws of physics apply!

I believe you have heard of something called Reverse Cycle Air Conditioning? Believe it or not, they do heating too, not just colling. I'm sure you'll need one of those gadgets, especially when temperatures go 40°+ for days.

If you don't like the feel of RC AC heating and since you are building, why not install central (or any other type of) heating? And since you want a well-insulated house, why are you building a double brick house? I know Plunkett only builds double brick houses.

Now let me tell you about the real reality. No matter how insulated your house is, the temperatures would eventually get below/above 20°. The more insulated, the slower, but at the end of the day it will happen. No house is airtight, and that is good, otherwise people would suffocate. Plus, you do open doors and windows now and again, right?
My number crunching in the first post shows that with double glazing windows, the temperature drop/increase would happen slower. Therefore you will need less energy (electricity or gas) to bring it back to your (20°) desired temperature. The numbers also show the difference in cost to get the desired temperature and that cost does not justify the cost of DG. I do understand that there is a value in achieving a comfortable temperature with less artificial heating/cooling, but how much $ value would you put on that? For most of us, definitely not $36K!
I get the feeling you do not understand the meaning of these number. Which is ok, just ask for explanation.


Not sure if this is an insult or snobbery...

Out of curiosity, did you use the same amount of heating in Australia as you did in US and Europe? How about clothing? I know for a fact that if you turn off the heating in those -30℃, very quickly, you'll be very uncomfortable.

As I said in your other post... it starts with the price of your windows $26k upgrade cost is #@**!! for 70m2..

Yes. You are clearly thorough and have an innate sense of justice - are you annoyed at the comment or feel the comment was unfair to you or unfair in general or it is false that double glazed windows can improve comfort, or they haven't improved comfort sufficiently for you?

Yes, everyone knows there is always an opportunity cost, and there is more to life than just windows! Yes if you know how to invest you can always get a better return or even influence governments, after setting up a successful hedge fund! You can also spend this money by purchasing additional education, by 'investing' in your health which will extend your lifespan, you can give to charity and have the blessings of many people. You can buy a big TV, new clothes, nik naks - some items can reduce in price as a result of technology, trade and competition, and relative to earning capacity. Maybe double glazed windows should come with a warning: you could instead gamble/ drink/ smoke/ throw the money away - consider carefully what comfort means to you?

The purpose of the post was to show actual electricity changes from someone who bothered to measure them. Sorry if you were annoyed or think its unfair. If even a few users find it annoying - happy to delete the comment/s..

Just been reading the above posts and find the passion quite interesting. As the price in Perth seems ludicrous for double glazing it seems like a luxury but probably one I might still be interested in as:

• Perth is getting a little bit more high density - noise is definitely more noticeable compared to the past years. So many bogans and ricers that want to show off how loud their car can sound. Noise benefits of double glazing are real if you look after the other noise leaks in your house.
• Power prices are going to go up a lot - Government has shown they are pretty incompetent at managing how solar and the power network will coexist... even those will solar panels will get hit with something akin to rates or taxes in the near future if Government can't deal with the issue.
• Air conditioning systems still cost a lot to install/maintain/update
• Doesn't matter if you talking about hot or cold climates, a tighter building seal has got to help.
• Everyone talks about Perth having an outdoor lifestyle, but summer is very hot, winter is cold and super windy... the outdoor lifestyle is a bit of a myth for 90% of the year so the logic that Perth doesn't benefit from a tight thermal seal makes no sense to me.
• I have lived in Europe and liked double glazing there weather no matter what season you are contemplating.

So if anyone has a way to get double glazing at a more reasonable price in Perth e.g. from an Eastern States supplier, overseas supplier or anything please advise, as I do agree the the prices here are a bit silly.

We can supply Perth but the hard part is the service and warranty. Happy to supply the parts but labour would need to be arranged by you.

Exactly! Southern Italy and Spain have a comparable weather to Perth and they still use double glazing for comfort. Obviously it's not cheap and it all depends on people's budget and priorities, but I'm happy with my choice.

In Perth I suggest you looking at Arco and Canon they were the cheapest.

Thanks!
Just for clarification, I used 70m2 only because it was used in the government's website where I picked up the formula from. After your response, I went and checked the actual m2, and it is much lower! The builders usually say from $26K for a 4x2 house of their existing plans, which is about 40 to 50m2 of glass (all windows and all sliding doors).

Sorry, my response was a bit harsh. The reason being is that your post appears as a sales pitch — the ones where salesperson gives you an unverifiable, anecdotal story to make the product more attractive.
You see, in your case, provided the story is legit, there are way too many other variables that could influence the cost of their electricity. Or the temperature difference measurements as well as the accuracy and validity of these measurements. As an expert in this field, I assumed you are aware of all that if you are not, then I have misunderstood the intention of your post, and I do apologise for it.
BTW, if you have access and can share some (certified) lab tests, I'm all ears!

ludicrous is good way to describe prices in Perth.


Completely agree with you on this one. Reduction, yes, but don't think you'll completely eliminate the low frequency noise. When my neighbours are having a party, the bass travels trough my double brick wall!
Also, there are certain type of glass, such as Viridian ComfortHush, that are better at this than just plain glass and perhaps cheaper than DG. If you want to use technology, there are outdoor noise cancelation speakers that can be installed under the eaves.


Power prices would go up, so would the salaries. We can only judge by what we know today — paying tax for having solar panels? I just don't see that happening.
From my point of view, our government is doing really well. No government is perfect, but they are just humans, after all. At least they kept us out of the financial crisis mess, unlike those super-smart European governments. You know, like the Spanish or Italian whose countries are at the brink of default. Perhaps because they spend too much on double glazing windows instead of other more important things...

I see Air conditioning as a necessity in Perth, so it is not that or DG. And from experience, I have seen about zero maintenance cost for the first ten years unless you pay someone to clean the filters for you.

100% agree. I fact, based on my calculations, hight end DG are about 90% more efficient than plain windows. The thing is that 90%, in my current house, only gives me about $400 savings a year. This means it'll take over 60 years to repay the windows and that is the whole point of this thread. Is it worth it? Now I see you may get good price and good on you for that! Perhaps ECOECO should open a branch in Perth.

90% is a bit too high.. especially for people that were born in here. I have met quite a few that enjoy the outdoors on a 36℃ day!
But then again, each person has a different tolerance to different temperatures. Took me years to adapt and tolerate mid-summer in Perth.

Just an update, I went with one of the cheaper suppliers recommended above and it has been a real nightmare. They start with an A, end with an O. Problems with the window units themselves, problems with the installation, and they are super super slow. They have said things on multiple occasions, and never actually do them. Talk is cheap I guess. I honestly couldn't recommend them on any level.

So based on experience, for Perth specifically, I would be recommending waiting until glazing industry improves itself through increased competition as building codes get more green in the coming years. Only my point of view I know, I am some others must have had good experiences with them. But I do wonder how many customers effectively get paid to keep their silence, meaning I am not sure you can trust things like google reviews etc... they seem very cherry picked.

I have received a quote from Michelle at Arco to put in 4 DG uPVC framed windows in our South facing side of the house (adjacent to an arterial route that can get noisy). Came in at $7400 for approx 9.5m2. They are very busy, cannot install until Dec/Jan. Was your experience with them not very good?

just a novice but we recently had our bathroom reno'd and opted to replace the window to a new uPVC double glazed unit.

For context, the house was built in the late 90's and had cheap crappy aliminium single pane glass.

I was keen to see how much difference it made, so I borrowed an infra-red camera from work (high quality FLIR unit) and used it on one of the 40 degree days in Feb.

The new DG window was 35.6 degrees, while one of the old windows in the next room (same external wall) was 39.1 degrees.

We've upgrade the insulation, air-con and have added solar, so keen to replace a few more of the windows.

Was that window getting some direct sunlight, or covered fully by eaves?

There are eaves,

You do realize this is not a scientific way of measuring the performance of a window in a particular climate zone? And even further from evaluating if it's worth the money.
For isntance, we don't have 40℃ 24 hours- 365 days. Also, you are comparing one of the worse with one of the best, there is a lot in between.

Of course I realise its not a particularly scientific way of measuring the performance of a window hence the word novice being the THIRD word in my post and never suggested otherwise.

I disagree with your reasoning about not having 40 degree days 24x7 - they are exactly the days im trying to make more comfortable.