Browse Forums Windows & Doors 1 Jul 15, 2012 9:27 am I recently went to the Melb Building expo as we are doing a huge renovation/demolition of our house. Everywhere i looked was upvc windows which I must say sounded great and the sales people were very convincing. We need around 15 new windows but my main thing is that my architect has specified sashless openable windows in narroline carpal 400.I must say they were all anti aluminium I forgot to ask but i assume that upvc windows can't be made las sashless openable and part fixed?they are going to be pretty big windows and the last thing we want is a sash through the middle cutting our view and light. thanks for any help on this. Re: UPVC windows help 2Jul 15, 2012 10:35 am parkesyau I recently went to the Melb Building expo as we are doing a huge renovation/demolition of our house. Everywhere i looked was upvc windows which I must say sounded great and the sales people were very convincing. We need around 15 new windows but my main thing is that my architect has specified sashless openable windows in narroline carpal 400.I must say they were all anti aluminium I forgot to ask but i assume that upvc windows can't be made las sashless openable and part fixed?they are going to be pretty big windows and the last thing we want is a sash through the middle cutting our view and light. thanks for any help on this. Some PVC people were not telling the truth at the Expo - I told them... and I will take it to the ACCC... 10 star with a U value 1.5... not likely, they are using imperial measures from the UK - all Australian U values are metric (it's like saying a car does 50 "kilometres per litre" when it is really 50 "miles per gallon" (50 MPG would be about 18 KPL dumb? or just creative selling?)... check out WERS, if they are not in WERS then they don't have the Australian standards covered. About PVC - I am not biased, we have supplied PVC and I will be having PVC windows back in our range soon... PVC does not suit large windows. Check out the UK homes that use the same profiles, they usually only go to 1500 high... and that is what they are designed for. Ask to see Australian test certificates. If you really want PVC then go to Inframe in Dandenong, honest guy, good product. But you could consider thermally broken aluminium which is just about on par. I can't find the sashless product here (http://werssearch.freehostia.com/tables ... rer=CAPRAL), so I presume it's another 3rd party product (it's normal), I think the Narrowline product here is actually a fixed window hence the good rating. I am surprised your architect is specifying Capral 400, it is not at all energy efficient, being a very old design... Sashless U values in WERS are meaningless because they do not allow for a frame like Capral's - it is just the sashless component. Personally I don't like sashless, in double glazed they require large ugly adaptors to be able to fit flyscreens - but some people love them. Have you considered full height sashes in casements or awnings? Thanks Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: UPVC windows help 3Jul 15, 2012 9:18 pm Not knocking Ed's product in any way, as by all reports he sells great windows, but we chose a thermally broken aluminium window from Trend called "ThermAL". We have found their service and windows so far, very good. We did look at a number of straight PVC options, but they all had various limitations that would not fit with our design, some of which were standards certification, and the lead time required to order the windows before requiring them. One wanted 14 weeks!! Have a look at Ed's windows, not to mention the one's we chose. Settlement 1/2/12 New Shed 23/3/12 Slab poured 27/3/12 Frame complete 4/5/12 Roof complete 1/6/12 LOCKUP 29/6/12 Our new build blog http://kareenhillsownerbuild.blogspot.com/ Re: UPVC windows help 5Jul 16, 2012 10:40 am Thanks for that Ed I did steer clear of the 10 star booth it seemed unrealistic.i actually did pop into your stand and spoke to a really nice girl there.got the card and might be best to email you through my plans and specs.was nice to see someone who had aluminum.i don't know what thermally broken aluminum is but I'm sure your team can help.i think the architect was aiming for a particular look with the commercial grade capral systems.might be easy to send through plans and take it from there Re: UPVC windows help 6Jul 16, 2012 11:19 am parkesyau Thanks for that Ed I did steer clear of the 10 star booth it seemed unrealistic.i actually did pop into your stand and spoke to a really nice girl there.got the card and might be best to email you through my plans and specs.was nice to see someone who had aluminum.i don't know what thermally broken aluminum is but I'm sure your team can help.i think the architect was aiming for a particular look with the commercial grade capral systems.might be easy to send through plans and take it from there Thanks... you have my email... ed @ ecoclassic.com.au... we will take into account your architect's aims and blend that with some economic and performance stuff.. please mention this in your email. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: UPVC windows help 7Jul 20, 2012 11:28 am ed @ ecoclassic parkesyau I recently went to the Melb Building expo as we are doing a huge renovation/demolition of our house. Everywhere i looked was upvc windows which I must say sounded great and the sales people were very convincing. We need around 15 new windows but my main thing is that my architect has specified sashless openable windows in narroline carpal 400.I must say they were all anti aluminium I forgot to ask but i assume that upvc windows can't be made las sashless openable and part fixed?they are going to be pretty big windows and the last thing we want is a sash through the middle cutting our view and light. thanks for any help on this. Some PVC people were not telling the truth at the Expo - I told them... and I will take it to the ACCC... 10 star with a U value 1.5... not likely, they are using imperial measures from the UK - all Australian U values are metric (it's like saying a car does 50 "kilometres per litre" when it is really 50 "miles per gallon" (50 MPG would be about 18 KPL dumb? or just creative selling?)... check out WERS, if they are not in WERS then they don't have the Australian standards covered. About PVC - I am not biased, we have supplied PVC and I will be having PVC windows back in our range soon... PVC does not suit large windows. Check out the UK homes that use the same profiles, they usually only go to 1500 high... and that is what they are designed for. Ask to see Australian test certificates. If you really want PVC then go to Inframe in Dandenong, honest guy, good product. But you could consider thermally broken aluminium which is just about on par. I can't find the sashless product here (http://werssearch.freehostia.com/tables ... rer=CAPRAL), so I presume it's another 3rd party product (it's normal), I think the Narrowline product here is actually a fixed window hence the good rating. I am surprised your architect is specifying Capral 400, it is not at all energy efficient, being a very old design... Sashless U values in WERS are meaningless because they do not allow for a frame like Capral's - it is just the sashless component. Personally I don't like sashless, in double glazed they require large ugly adaptors to be able to fit flyscreens - but some people love them. Have you considered full height sashes in casements or awnings? Thanks Ed Hi Ed, what happened to your uPVC window range???? There are some flimsy uPVC extrusions around with which you cannot make e decent size sash. We can make much larger than 1500 high and it is very high wind zone standard and we supplied upvc windows to cliff top properties facing the pacific ocean with full blast gales frequently and no water ingress whatshowever. But for that you need a high quality 5 or 6 chamber German system, 70mm plus and some decent steel in it and forget Chinese, Turkish and even most of UK profiles. Yes it comes at a cost but the client is onthe safe side. @ parkesyau The main thing you need to ask for is Uw or actual R value, bushfire rating and wind zoning. The star rating system is rather broad and doesn't give real information about the window. Change is what we need! Can we? YES WE CAN!!!!! Re: UPVC windows help 8Jul 20, 2012 8:29 pm I gather that this is going to get into a urinating contest given a few posts I have seen. W/E if you can make all these products, bring them over to Oz so the window market can see them and determine for themselves if they are as good as you say. If they are here I didn't see them when looking for windows for our new house, nor at the home show. Settlement 1/2/12 New Shed 23/3/12 Slab poured 27/3/12 Frame complete 4/5/12 Roof complete 1/6/12 LOCKUP 29/6/12 Our new build blog http://kareenhillsownerbuild.blogspot.com/ Re: UPVC windows help 9Jul 20, 2012 9:07 pm Well I like to put the facts straight, calling a firm discussion "urinating" is a matter of opinion but what am I suppose to answer to such nonsense that uPVC windows cannot be bigger than 1500mm ??? I am long enough in the upmarket window industry to know what goes and what not. Change is what we need! Can we? YES WE CAN!!!!! Re: UPVC windows help 10Jul 20, 2012 9:28 pm Forgot to mention that I have Australian customers building in New Zealand and they noted the quality difference of our uPVC windows compared to the ones they have seen in Australia. Our philosophy is simple, no shortcuts, no compromise on quality, always following the state of window technology in Europe , all components from Europe (mainly Germany) and we make windows to DIN/EN spec and very high wind zone as standard. Rehau for example sell different (lower spec.) profiles in Australia and Asia compared to the ones they sell in Germany. We use a Profile which is also currently used mainstream in Germany. Would be interesting to enter the Australian market with some real quality stuff but I can't be everywhere at the same time. Change is what we need! Can we? YES WE CAN!!!!! Re: UPVC windows help 11Jul 21, 2012 8:21 am windowexpert Hi Ed, what happened to your uPVC window range???? . Hello windowexpert... Changing systems and at the same time designing our new commercial systems and curtain walls... can't do everything at once. windowexpert There are some flimsy uPVC extrusions around with which you cannot make e decent size sash. We can make much larger than 1500 high and it is very high wind zone standard and we supplied upvc windows to cliff top properties facing the pacific ocean with full blast gales frequently and no water ingress whatshowever. But for that you need a high quality 5 or 6 chamber German system, 70mm plus and some decent steel in it and forget Chinese, Turkish and even most of UK profiles. Yes it comes at a cost but the client is onthe safe side. . I expect you know that the linear thermal expansion of PVC is 5 times that of the steel you put inside... temperatures being what they are in in Australia, means that a sash could expand up to 4mm per metre when the steel expands less than 1mm (@ 40 deg C.), this would be especially a worry with dark colours, where that could double in direct sunlight. Expansion cannot be contained, in a wall system the window must move, and if it cannot do that along its length, it will bow, and bow will be around double the linear expansion. So a full height sash, say 2400, in white will expand linearly up to 10mm and in dark colours double that, all while the steel expands 2mm or so. The multi-chamber systems are not for strength, the steel does that, it is for insulation. windowexpert @ parkesyau The main thing you need to ask for is Uw or actual R value, bushfire rating and wind zoning. The star rating system is rather broad and doesn't give real information about the window. We don't rely on the star system in Australia... as I have said previously to you, in Australia we use WERS.net, which contains the specifics you mention, unlike the NZ system. (http://www.wanz.co.nz/StarCharts versus... http://werssearch.freehostia.com/tables ... turer=PAAR) I think it would be a good idea to have one of your largest windows tested to AS2047 in a NATA laboratory in Australia... same as the rest of us. It's a more stringent test than ISO. Your windows will not comply in Australia unless they are tested to AS2047, whether they are suitable or not, and you should not sell them here. I would be happy to put you in touch with the lab we use. Come on windowexpert, time to stop this knocking... there are plenty of excellent PVC window suppliers in Australia and even you commented upon our PVC windows saying they were high quality. They all have their place, as long as suppliers are honest, and the windows are independently tested and rated, at the end of the day, that is the customers security, not the spruiking, there is already plenty of that and we don't need it. Your general comments about Australian manufactured windows are not informed comments and you should not publish them here. Thanks Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: UPVC windows help 12Jul 21, 2012 1:42 pm Well the system we use is tested and approved for the Australian market as well and meets or exceeds the requirements and it is used in Australia. The comments about the quality standards is the feedback I get from AUSTRALIANS So why should it be not published here? so the people ARE aware to look particular at the quality standards. A few dasy ago I had a rep. from an Australian company here and he noticed straight away the high level of quality. And as far is I understand we are not in China or North Korea, like it or not. Change is what we need! Can we? YES WE CAN!!!!! Re: UPVC windows help 13Jul 21, 2012 5:42 pm windowexpert Well the system we use is tested and approved for the Australian market as well and meets or exceeds the requirements and it is used in Australia. The comments about the quality standards is the feedback I get from AUSTRALIANS So why should it be not published here? so the people ARE aware to look particular at the quality standards. A few dasy ago I had a rep. from an Australian company here and he noticed straight away the high level of quality. And as far is I understand we are not in China or North Korea, like it or not. It should not be published here because it is not qualified feedback, just uninformed gossip. Just hearsay, and you appear to like what you hear, so you say. But it especially should not be published here because it is just plain wrong and it is also so boring... It would be more interesting if you publish the names of the window companies that you critique third hand, rather than the repetitive knocking. At least we would have some excitement... BTW... Unless your specific system has been specifically tested at a NATA lab to Australian standards, it is not tested. If you can find it in WERS then it is tested, if not then it is not. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: UPVC windows help 14Jul 21, 2012 6:37 pm I know this forum is your commercial playground and everything that does not suit your commercial interest does not belong here and so on.... Like I said comments from a number of Australians I have dealt with over time... Should this be published here because it is nonsense? you wrote: ... PVC does not suit large windows. Check out the UK homes that use the same profiles, they usually only go to 1500 high... and that is what they are designed for.......... I don't expect you to share my view and opinion and you should leave it to the homeowners to judge quality and since I put great importance onto quality I want to make people aware that they don't have to put up with poor quality. And unlike yourself I have no commercial gain in here. Change is what we need! Can we? YES WE CAN!!!!! Re: UPVC windows help 15Jul 21, 2012 7:07 pm W/E why is it in all your posts that you have never mentioned the name of your company or the brand of windows your sell or any of your distributors here in Australia.? Where can we look at these windows so perhaps we can all then make up our minds as to there "high quality" as you say they are. Also can you tell me if your windows are WERS rated, as this is need for thermal assessment for 6 star rating, otherwise a generic figure is given which would not be accurate if these windows are of a higher standard. This in turn will mean the consumer would not be getting an accurate rating that they deserve. Settlement 1/2/12 New Shed 23/3/12 Slab poured 27/3/12 Frame complete 4/5/12 Roof complete 1/6/12 LOCKUP 29/6/12 Our new build blog http://kareenhillsownerbuild.blogspot.com/ Re: UPVC windows help 16Jul 21, 2012 8:24 pm windowexpert I know this forum is your commercial playground and everything that does not suit your commercial interest does not belong here and so on.... Like I said comments from a number of Australians I have dealt with over time... Should this be published here because it is nonsense? you wrote: ... PVC does not suit large windows. Check out the UK homes that use the same profiles, they usually only go to 1500 high... and that is what they are designed for.......... I don't expect you to share my view and opinion and you should leave it to the homeowners to judge quality and since I put great importance onto quality I want to make people aware that they don't have to put up with poor quality. And unlike yourself I have no commercial gain in here. Nonsense about my commercial interests... I am not concerned if you pitch your products against mine, I am just sick of your constant knocking of Australian windows... So what about my points (you appear to ignore them): - 1) There are plenty of window manufacturers in Australia who make excellent windows... and they may even make the same brand of PVC as you!!! 2) How do you explain away the effect of differential expansion in your wonderful German windows between PVC and steel??? Especially in those huge sashes you boast you can make (anyone can make them, but will they test OK and will they work?). I pay to advertise here, I help people here and elsewhere regardless of whose windows they buy or use... you will find the link above to WERS went to the Paarhammer data in WERS. I respect other suppliers, whatever market niche they occupy... and why not? Not everyone wants or needs the ultimate window or even my window... it's personal choice... This is my last word on the subject... Bet my residential aluminium window beats yours in physical testing... And in energy efficiency (Come on take the bet... ) Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: UPVC windows help 17Jul 21, 2012 8:55 pm Discussion WOT (waste of time) Change is what we need! Can we? YES WE CAN!!!!! Re: UPVC windows help 19Jul 22, 2012 12:06 am After each of those fruitless discussions I start to see even more potential for me in the higher end Australian Market with high performance and energy efficient joinery concepts, just too busy to handle it at the same time. Change is what we need! Can we? YES WE CAN!!!!! Re: UPVC windows help 20Jul 22, 2012 1:13 pm windowexpert After each of those fruitless discussions I start to see even more potential for me in the higher end Australian Market with high performance and energy efficient joinery concepts, just too busy to handle it at the same time. Yes, I can see that, and I am sure you will be successful, once you start respecting our market, understand the Australian climate and temperatures, understand Australian standards and you learn to calculate the thermal linear expansion of PVC... Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 3 4177 Personally, considering your layout (study/work desks in bedrooms), I don't think you have any other option but to leave NW windows and make them as big as possible e.g.… 7 10484 Hi, I'm planning to build a new house and wanted to get some feedback on the different window designs for a master bedroom. Our bedroom is north facing and the bed will… 0 4561 |