Issue with doors... help!

VJ · Feb 05, 2008 9:42 pm

Quote:

As most have already said VJ, I would be telling them to fix to fix their problem and then they can contact you once rectified and for your inspection. Take the photos of the display home with you....

What they have/are doing is/feels so wrong on so many different levels...

Bugger'em tell them to fix it and hang up.... see how quickly someone rings you back.....

Thanks, arkraider.
It's really good to have people who advise and support you about issues re: building a house.
It's our 1st house and we were hoping it won't be that stressful.
I really hope they fix it, same way as they fix the issues with the overhang timber.
Since I emailed our CSR re: not agreeing to changing all affected doors downstairs, we haven't received any response.
She was responding quite fast when we agreed initially on the HT doors... afterwards, she stopped responding. Probably she was thinking of what else to say, as I was so %^*#@ after she suggested to change the pantry doors too!

rerob1 · Feb 05, 2008 9:57 pm

Hi VJ, I replied in your other post, basically same as everyone else - don't cave! Its not your fault & they need to fix it themselves!

good luck!

ahuang · Feb 07, 2008 8:19 pm

What about:
1) only replace the door for HT but leave all other door as original size
2) on top of the HT install some sort of highlit or glass brick or something to make it not so obvious??

Even if in the worst case you finally need to accept the smaller doors, you should at least get some sort of compensation. There's definitely a huge $ difference!

VJ · Feb 07, 2008 11:05 pm

Just giving you an update of what transpired today:

We finally received an email from our CSR informing us that:
- she coordinated the issue with their drafting manager and external engineers
- they can do the 2340mm high door to the pantry
- they have not find a solution for the HT doors due to structural components and suggested that we use the smaller 2040mm door instead
- she noticed that our plans (attached to the contract) reflected that they were unable to include the 2340mm doors to the living room (now HT).

We checked the plans attached to the contract, which she was referring to, and lo and behold! there was a note at page 2 of the floor plan which states:
"Provide 2340mm high internal doors to ground floor (excl Living)"
I explained to her that the plans, which was attached to the contract, were superceded by another one, which was part of the post-contract variation. Even the plans submitted to the council were not the final one, due to some minor errors. It appears that she doesn't have a copy of the final 'signed' plans. I wonder if our SS also holds the old plan too :?:

So, I attached the signed PDF version of the final plans to our email for her perusal.

We insisted that we want the 2340mm high doors to all doors in ground floor.

With her explanation about 'structural components', do you think we can still insist?

PhoenixStar · Feb 07, 2008 11:14 pm

VJ make sure you explore all possible options in relation to the higher 2340mm doors before even thinking of conceding...

At the end of the day, as i said in your original thread....THEIR STUFF UP....NOT YOURS.... Their responsibility to FIX IT...

The quick solution for them is to have you compromise on your selections..... hmmmm not nice in my opinion, make them fix it....it's not fair that YOU should have to compromise.

Stand your ground. :evil:

VJ · Feb 07, 2008 11:22 pm

Quote:

At the end of the day, as i said in your original thread....THEIR STUFF UP....NOT YOURS.... Their responsibility to FIX IT...

The quick solution for them is to have you compromise on your selections..... hmmmm not nice in my opinion, make them fix it....it's not fair that YOU should have to compromise.

Stand your ground.

Yes, Phoenix, we will stand our ground.
I thought about it too.. the compromise (worst case scenario).
But whenever I think about having a big high timber entrance door and seeing the smaller door once you enter the house (because the HT is the 1st room when you enter the house), it makes me realise that the credit that they would give due to smaller doors is not enough to make me happy. It would be a couple of hundreds only...

and I want the high doors!!! :cry:

DeeElle · Feb 07, 2008 11:51 pm

VJ

Quote:

At the end of the day, as i said in your original thread....THEIR STUFF UP....NOT YOURS.... Their responsibility to FIX IT...

The quick solution for them is to have you compromise on your selections..... hmmmm not nice in my opinion, make them fix it....it's not fair that YOU should have to compromise.

Stand your ground.

Yes, Phoenix, we will stand our ground.
I thought about it too.. the compromise (worst case scenario).
But whenever I think about having a big high timber entrance door and seeing the smaller door once you enter the house (because the HT is the 1st room when you enter the house), it makes me realise that the credit that they would give due to smaller doors is not enough to make me happy. It would be a couple of hundreds only...

and I want the high doors!!! :cry:

VJ I feel for you ... seems like you've been having a hard time lately.

I wouldnt give up on your preference for taller doors. The best negotiators always hold on 'till the end and then compromise on something they were always prepared to accept.

IF you have to compromise think about the following:

What is your bottom line and what are you prepared to accept? Wait until they are desperate for an outcome and agree to the bottom line. Then ask them to compensate you for conceding but let them know you are still unhappy as it will detract from the overall aesthetics. Do you need a dishwasher, thicker benchtops, aircell insulation, whirly birds? Make sure you are compensated at least double for the trouble!!

Be prepared to compromise a little but don't let them know that. Keep ringing and hassling them ... unfortunately the squeeky wheel always gets oiled first. :evil:

AND subtly remind them of other concerns you have. Try not to lose the relationship as that is vitally important to negotiations.

My two cents worth

. Good luck.

Casa2 · Feb 08, 2008 9:13 am

VJ,

So we've established that the builder states it's a structual problem. I interpret this as, to make it work structurally, it will cost some money. I'm pretty certain that almost anything can be done structurally if you spend enough money.

One approach would be to acknowledge with the builder that it is a structural problem. Ask them if their structural engineer can come up with a solution that allows the high door. I bet there is a solution. If they come back and say the structural engineer has looked at the problem and there is no solution (read, no inexpensive solution) offer to take the problem to a structural engineer of your choice. To look at it and offer an opinion should only take an hour or two which is not going to be too expensive. The fair thing would be that if the structural engineer comes up with a solution, then the building company should pay for the strucutral engineer. If the structural engineer doesn't come up wtih a solution then you will have to pay for it, but at least you know it can't be done. (Then when they reduce the price for reducing the *ONE* door height that should pay for the structural engineer. See, you should never be out-of-pocket!)

I bet there is a structural solution, but the builder just wants you to take the cheapest option for them.

The simple solution is to just tell them keep on trying. Tell them to buy one of Edward De Bono's books. That should help.

Cheers,
Casa

Cabinfever · Feb 08, 2008 10:12 am

Again I think some 'horse trading' is the best way. It seems to me that at some point they were aware that the higher doors in this area were not practical due to structural concerns.

The fact that at some point this concern seems to have been dropped off the plans doesn't mean it's no longer a structural problem. It's not that they have just installed the wrong items or painted something the wrong colour, it's that there is a good and sound reason for not wanting to install higher doors. It may be that a forced "solution" to enable higher doors might result in reduced strength in that wall, which in the long term is not a good outcome.

So rather than trying to "stick to your guns" on something that appears to be a process or clerical error on their part, I'd compromise.

To them I would express your extreme disappointment, but at the same time look at it from their point of view and acknowledge the engineering reality.

As compensation for your disappointment you get something else done at no cost. There must be *something* you want. All you need do is ensure that your compensation request is slightly less work than the door fix.

( This all assumes that the higher doors aren't the centrepiece of the house and that there really are structural reasons for not putting them in rather than just laziness of the builders. )

VJ · Feb 08, 2008 8:42 pm

DeeElle, Casa and Cabinfever,

I really thank you for all your suggestions.
I feel so stressed now...

Today, while I was attending a workshop, our CSR rang DH and gave the phone to the site manager so he could explain to DH the issue with the high doors.
He said that they were going to put a beam inside those bulkhead as support to the upper area of the house.
Suggestions were either:
- have the smaller doors, or
- remove all the beams to the HT and nearby areas.
If you would refer to the earlier photos that I posted here - the one taken from the display home - you would notice that there were bulkheads at the lounge area (now HT) and nearby areas. these will have to go if we prefer this option. DH told me that they are going to put the beams higher (don't know how to explain this) so they won't stick out, thus allow higher doors.

I can't believe that hubby agreed with the smaller doors! without consulting me again!

We had an argument about it...
I told him that I would only agree if there's really no other way but to go for the smaller door.
But I won't agree to the $300+ credit that they are going to give us due to the smaller doors!
Imagine that - $300+ only to compensate us for this?
I was already thinking of the things that I would ask them for free.. such as timber risers to our stairs (we only have timber steps) and those lovely timber feature to the ceiling of portico and balcony.
But now, because he verbally agreed, I already lost my bargaining power :cry:

CSR sent the building variation form for our signature, indicating the $300+ credit for the smaller doors.
I told DH I won't sign it and that I would only agree if they credit the whole $2,000+ value of the 2 high doors or give us freebies like what I mentioned earlier.

Casa's suggestion about an independent engineer was a good idea... we should have read it earlier.

Cabinfever was right about the structural concerns... although I wonder if they only say that just to go for the cheapest option (as Casa suggested).
Now I'm confused.
Since DH only agreed verbally, it means that it's not yet final.
I'm thinking of emailing the CSR to tell her that I won't sign unless they give us the full credit of the high doors or other stuff (like what I mentioned).

What do you think?
Would greatly appreciate your advice now... we were given 5 days to sign the building variation.

PhoenixStar · Feb 08, 2008 8:58 pm

VJ

DeeElle, Casa and Cabinfever,

I really thank you for all your suggestions.
I feel so stressed now...

Today, while I was attending a workshop, our CSR rang DH and gave the phone to the site manager so he could explain to DH the issue with the high doors.
He said that they were going to put a beam inside those bulkhead as support to the upper area of the house.
Suggestions were either:
- have the smaller doors, or
- remove all the beams to the HT and nearby areas.
If you would refer to the earlier photos that I posted here - the one taken from the display home - you would notice that there were bulkheads at the lounge area (now HT) and nearby areas. these will have to go if we prefer this option. DH told me that they are going to put the beams higher (don't know how to explain this) so they won't stick out, thus allow higher doors.

I can't believe that hubby agreed with the smaller doors! without consulting me again!

We had an argument about it...
I told him that I would only agree if there's really no other way but to go for the smaller door.
But I won't agree to the $300+ credit that they are going to give us due to the smaller doors!
Imagine that - $300+ only to compensate us for this?
I was already thinking of the things that I would ask them for free.. such as timber risers to our stairs (we only have timber steps) and those lovely timber feature to the ceiling of portico and balcony.
But now, because he verbally agreed, I already lost my bargaining power :cry:

CSR sent the building variation form for our signature, indicating the $300+ credit for the smaller doors.
I told DH I won't sign it and that I would only agree if they credit the whole $2,000+ value of the 2 high doors or give us freebies like what I mentioned earlier.

Casa's suggestion about an independent engineer was a good idea... we should have read it earlier.

Cabinfever was right about the structural concerns... although I wonder if they only say that just to go for the cheapest option (as Casa suggested).
Now I'm confused.
Since DH only agreed verbally, it means that it's not yet final.
I'm thinking of emailing the CSR to tell her that I won't sign unless they give us the full credit of the high doors or other stuff (like what I mentioned).

What do you think?
Would greatly appreciate your advice now... we were given 5 days to sign the building variation.

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!! Call them back and tell them NO - that is utter CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(I can't understand why DH's do this - mine did something similar today with our new dishwasher we ordered and now I'LL have to argue with the store manager and resolve it tomorrow.... :evil:

)

VJ, it is only a verbal agreement, send them an e-mail tonight so they have it first thing Monday morning that it is not acceptable..... you BOTH need to be happy...it will be a point of frustration if you are both not comfortable with it....and DH is going to be copping for a long time....mine would!!!:evil: :evil:

Send them an e-mail and request for confirmation of their receipt and understanding. Then YOU recommence your negotiations.

I feel so sorry for you VJ... I'd elevate this issue as high as i possibly could with your builder.... the CSR, Construction Mgr etc is not high enough....go beyond them....YOU need to get what YOU paid for..... :evil:

VJ · Feb 08, 2008 9:36 pm

Thanks Phoenix,

I really need some support people at the moment as I feel so stressed right now.
And you know what? It's our anniversary today!
What a way to celebrate your 11th year wedding anniversary :cry:

Quote:

I feel so sorry for you VJ... I'd elevate this issue as high as i possibly could with your builder.... the CSR, Construction Mgr etc is not high enough....go beyond them....YOU need to get what YOU paid for.....

How do you elevate an issue like this?
Is it supposed to go through the CSR?

PhoenixStar · Feb 08, 2008 9:48 pm

VJ, feel free to PM me if you want to chat.
I'm happy to speak on the phone with you if need be? It's definitely not a nice way to spend your 11th wedding anniversary. :cry:

Re: going further with this issue.

You need to start calling and asking for firstly, your CSR's manager, then that person's manager if they can't help you, then the managers manager....all the way to the top if you have to.....DON'T GIVE IN if it's what you want.

GO to their office if you have to.....DO whatever it takes to make sure YOU are happy.

Believe me, it works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :wink:

I know so many of H3nley's staff (from my S/S, all the way to the top) regularly read my blog and the threads on this forum... It has been of great benefit to me that they know what his happening....usually you will find that they are not aware of what's going on at your level....BRING it to THEIR attention.

DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO TO MAKE SURE YOU GET WHAT YOU PAID FOR :evil:

PM me if you want to chat?

DeeElle · Feb 09, 2008 12:21 am

VJ

I can't believe that hubby agreed with the smaller doors! without consulting me again!

I told him that I would only agree if there's really no other way but to go for the smaller door.
But I won't agree to the $300+ credit that they are going to give us due to the smaller doors!
Imagine that - $300+ only to compensate us for this?
I was already thinking of the things that I would ask them for free.. such as timber risers to our stairs (we only have timber steps) and those lovely timber feature to the ceiling of portico and balcony.
But now, because he verbally agreed, I already lost my bargaining power :cry:

CSR sent the building variation form for our signature, indicating the $300+ credit for the smaller doors.
I told DH I won't sign it and that I would only agree if they credit the whole $2,000+ value of the 2 high doors or give us freebies like what I mentioned earlier.

I'm thinking of emailing the CSR to tell her that I won't sign unless they give us the full credit of the high doors or other stuff (like what I mentioned).

What do you think?
Would greatly appreciate your advice now... we were given 5 days to sign the building variation.

Dont stress VJ - I know it is easy for me to say that but its not worth the distress. M is exactly the same as your hubby - he always concedes and then I go in to battle to make sure our rights are ensured. Not meaning to be stereotypical :shock:

but builders will often go straight to the DH so they can chat 'bloke to bloke'.

I have made it clear to our builder that he has a contract with both hubby and myself, and that he needs to have both our agreement before proceeding. He makes sure he meets with us both or gives us time to decide before asking for signature etc.

Stick to your guns but try not to let this glitch get in the way of your anniversary. Building is a very stressful process (as we can probably all attest) and there is a long way to go yet.

I would send them an email and tell them you are not happy with the suggestion of a 300+ credit for the doors as that was not the signed contract and agreement. Tell them you are prepared to consider the following options:
1. an independent engineer to assess whether this is a structural issue
2. agree to accept shorter doors (in one area not all) if stair risers and treads are provided in hardwood free of cost (make sure the cost is higher than the doors!)
3. any other option you can think of

Remind them you want to continue to retain your good relationship and that you have some way to go before the build is concluded. Also let them know (which you may have done already) that you selected this house due to the high doors and there is NO WAY you are prepared to downsize at this stage. Tell them to find another solution or accept an upgrade that will cost them $$$.

I think they will see it is in their best interests to come up with a mutually beneficial arrangement even if they are out of pocket.

Good luck and I will be thinking of you.

Casa2 · Feb 09, 2008 7:58 am

DeeElle, very well said.

Cabinfever · Feb 09, 2008 12:11 pm

It may be possible to rescue this seeming division by switching into a sort of "good cop - bad cop" role.

ahuang · Feb 10, 2008 8:08 pm

I read your blog, you are still in framing stage, lots of things can still be changed without too much hassle... We got all the internal walls done, and our cabling guy worked quite hard te other day to connect 1 x TV cable + 2 x RCA cables from one side of the wall to the middle because wife changed her mind and wants a wall mounted TV.... He has to drill lots of holes all over the wall... it was a horrible scene...

VJ · Feb 10, 2008 10:05 pm

Quote:

I read your blog, you are still in framing stage, lots of things can still be changed without too much hassle...

I wish we are the ones requesting for changes... not them changing what we agreed on.

Quote:

our cabling guy worked quite hard te other day to connect 1 x TV cable + 2 x RCA cables from one side of the wall to the middle because wife changed her mind and wants a wall mounted TV.... He has to drill lots of holes all over the wall... it was a horrible scene...

Hmmmm...

I was also like your wife during pre-contract stage.....
wonder if that's a woman thing? :oops:

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VJ · Feb 11, 2008 1:20 pm

We emailed our CSR last night re: their suggestion of either making the doors smaller or removing the bulkhead to the HT area.

She sent us a variation for the smaller doors, which equates to $374 credit to us. Yes........... $374 only for reducing 2 timber glazed doors from 2340mm to 2040mm.
We gave them 3 options to settle this issue once and for all, one of them is to give us a full credit of $2,300+ for the price of the two doors.

Today, we received a response telling us that works will be stopped until the issue has been resolved, and that she forwarded our email to her manager.

Hhhmmm... hope they come up with a resolution ASAP that is acceptable to us.

VJ · Feb 11, 2008 5:57 pm

CSR called up at around 4pm.
Seems that they have a resolution to the issue.

To give you a more detailed info re: what we asked for last night, here are the options that we told them we would ONLY consider to address the issue:
- we would employ an independent engineer to assess whether this is a structural issue and suggest other options (to their cost, if the engineer finds another option not suggested by them) ;
- we would agree to accept the shorter doors to the Home Theatre if :
- they give us full credit of the two doors OR
- they give us the suggested credit of $300+ AND provide us with other items for free - timber risers, cedar - v jointed lining boards with Sikkens wood finish to front verandah/portico and balcony ceilings in lieu of standard.

You would notice that what we had asked for were suggested by people who contributed to this topic :lol:

.
That's why I would like to thank you all

Very grateful to all of you.

Anyway, CSR forwarded our email to her manager, as I also complained about them asking for my husband's consent verbally. I reiterated that they have a contract between me and my husband, therefore both of should be consulted before a decision is made.

They stopped works today (until issue is resolved), and I dropped by the site to confirm that it was indeed stopped. I saw the fascias delivered though. Good thing I'm on leave for a week, therefore, I could concenrate on the issues for the rest of the week.

CSR called up after I went to the site at around 4pm.
Looks like they are not willing to give me full credit, nor give the other items that we were asking. Therefore, they met with their external engineers to find another option - and they did!
CSR said we would get the same size of doors... retain the bulkheads... but make the support beams smaller (but double it). I asked what's gonna be the impact on the stability for using a smaller beam. She said the engineers suggested it. She is going to document it and email us about the details tonight. Once we sign it, building works will resume.

Let's see what's in the email tonight.

Thanks again to everybody who helped us go through this issue.