Browse Forums Windows & Doors 1 Jun 01, 2011 5:33 pm Hi Ed
I am hoping that you can address some concerns that I have with my windows. This is quite a long post so I thank you in advance for your attention and any advice you may give. The windows in question were manufactured by A & L and installed by my big name builder in Victoria. Last month I had my practical completion inspection and discovered that both my sliding doors were damaged as well a large window in a minor bedroom, which my builder agreed to replace. The damage included dints and angle grinder marks on the frame of the windows. Originally the gap between the window reveals and house frame had polyester insulation and packers (which I note you have previously advised to keep a look out for). However, the new windows were installed without any packers and insulation. I suspected this was the case and was able to confirm it on the weekend by ripping off one of the architraves. The biggest gap between the window reveal and house frame exceeded 20mm as you can see in the below photo. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Now my problem is that I cannot find any authoritative document that would prescribe the tolerance for the gap between the window reveal and house frame or any information regarding packers (requisite placement, material etc.). I was unsuccessful in obtaining an installation guide from A & L and the information in clause 7.3 of the AS 2047-1999 was lacking in detail. I was hoping you could give me the answers or at least point me in the right direction so that I have grounds to demand my builder rectify what I perceive to be a defect. In case the dimensions are relevant, the large sliding window measures 2057Hx1810W and the sliding doors measure 2110Hx1450W. If I don’t have this rectified how real a risk of the window distorting does a lack of packers pose? I also have another tricky problem if you could indulge me. My builder made a mistake and installed wrong sized windows to the Family room. They are narrower than what they were supposed to be. I only picked this up after the house was bricked so that the brickwork was hard up against the window frames in question. Rather than get the builder to replace the windows with the correct larger ones which would require a lot of time, cost and rework (frame, brick etc.) I agreed for the builder to keep the existing ones and just raise them a foot in the same position to allow more natural light (I also preferred this option because I have high ceilings). So that is what was done. However, I noticed prior to my practical completion inspection that the heads of both windows deviate significantly from plane. As you can see from the below photo the deviation exceeds 12mm over the 1450mm width of the window. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ What is even more perplexing is that the windows are relatively true to plumb, so it is as if the windows themselves are not square. I don’t know what could have caused this but I suspect it might have been the raising of the windows, which was potentially difficult given the brickwork was flush up against them. Then again, the windows might have been defective to begin with, who knows? In any case my builder has agreed to rectify this without replacing the windows. My concern is whether this is acceptable as potentially the rectification could expose the windows to unintended forces/stresses if the builder tries to bend them back etc. which could cause me problems in the future. Thus Ed, would you be happy with such a solution and do you have any tips for what to consider to make sure it is done correctly? Or is this not much of a problem at all and I am just overreacting? I look forward to any advice you may have. Cheers, inverell Re: Ed please help! 3Jun 01, 2011 10:44 pm Hi Thanks for the query... A window or door opening in the timber frame is oversize by 20mm height & width to allow adjustment so that the door and window operate properly, and packers are used to fill the opening and give support after the window or door is installed square and plumb, & 20mm on one side is OK as long as packers are fitted. In your first case, yes, they should have fitted packers, unfortunately many don't do this. I would say it is critical for a door jamb especially on the lock side and critical under a mullion in large window like yours. If the window or door is square and plumb and operates, you/they could insert small amounts of expandable foam at 600mm intervals where the packers should be. I have been to VCAT recently for a similar issue, the owner thinks it's our fault... but it's the installer and builder who look after this. Your second problem, I would let the builder try to fix this and I think he should be able to. Ask them to check the diagonals when they have finished, to make sure the windows have not been "racked" out of square. If it's unsuccessful, they will need to order new windows, and then you can have what you originally ordered. Thanks Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Ed please help! 4Jun 02, 2011 12:11 pm Thanks for your quick and comprehensive reply Ed. Much appreciated. Lex- you can see the packers circled in red in the photo below. I don’t know what they’re made from but they looked to be some sort of wood composite. The insulation may be hard to make out in the photo but it is just strands of white polyester stuffed densely in the gap between the window reveal and house frame to prevent draughts- I think it is mandatory as part of the energy rating because it is something my builder does as standard. For anyone who notices and is interested, my insulation batts are R2.5 Soundscreen Plus rockwool batts by Bradford (accoustic batts). Cheers, inverell Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Re: Ed please help! 5Jun 02, 2011 12:17 pm Thanks very much for the explanation, inverell. I see the packers, as well as insulation right around them . Now I'm pretty sure that we never had any packers at all. My signature is distracting people from my wise posts ... Re: Question about packers between window reveal and house f 6Jun 02, 2011 9:44 pm I feel rather stupid right about now seeing as I realised upon my daily inspection of the house this evening that a diagram for the proper installation of the windows was taped to them all this time! Oops! Anyway, I have scanned and attached it below for the benefit of anyone searching for information on packers and window installation in the future. Cheers Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Re: Question about packers between window reveal and house f 7Jun 02, 2011 10:19 pm Read the statement at the head... then look at your photos... Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Question about packers between window reveal and house f 8Jun 03, 2011 4:07 pm Ed- yes, I realised that straight away too... it would be a massive pain to correct now though. Would you recommend I get it rectified or take a risk and leave it as is? Could a packed head be potentially problematic or not really? Thanks. Moxy- thanks for the advice... I just might have to do that. Re: Question about packers between window reveal and house f 9Jun 03, 2011 8:29 pm inverell Ed- yes, I realised that straight away too... it would be a massive pain to correct now though. Would you recommend I get it rectified or take a risk and leave it as is? Could a packed head be potentially problematic or not really? Thanks. Moxy- thanks for the advice... I just might have to do that. The standard is not to pack the head, in order to allow for settlement in the frame and construction. I would put the builder on notice that any movement in the warranty period will require rectification. After that it should not be a problem. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Question about packers between window reveal and house f 10Jun 05, 2011 6:24 pm Just came across this http://www.bsa.qld.gov.au/SiteCollectionDocuments/Builders_Contractors/Publications/Technical%20booklet.pdf (see page 16 onwards) and it reminded me of three things, one of them being this thread. The other thing is what I always thought a weird practice - window frames literally hanging on a few nails and far away from house frames. The third thing - after seeing how windows (and doors) are installed, I was wondering how can a thin window frame, sitting upright and far from any lateral support, hold and support the weight (and the added pulling weight/load) of heavy window coverings, eg. horizontal timber blinds, vertical blinds, double rollers and such. My signature is distracting people from my wise posts ... This is 100% true. You can not hang anything on steel frames. very frustrating 8 8021 Its the flashing and is normal. Some builders cover them up others just leave them handing. You can cover it up with an aluminium bracket or ask the builder. 7 11234 1 14482 |