Browse Forums Windows & Doors 1 Jul 31, 2010 1:12 pm Hi all, We're planning on building a new custom house (demolish old place & rebuild) - we are in Melbourne & live about 1km away from the Westgate Bridge & about 200m away from the 24 hr national freight line (train). Because the Westgate is obviously elevated the sound travels a long way - I'm a very light sleeper & the peak hour roar drives me crazy. Also the rumble of the freight trains & particularly the high pitched squeal of the metal-upon-metal is very annoying. We live near a corner section of the track hence the squeal. So we are looking at building both a thermally efficient house & one which will block these noises as much as possible - hence will build using an ICF system (insulated concrete forms) which is fantastic thermally & for sound deadening. It is the windows that concern me - we are planning on using double glazing throughout - but I believe standard 4/12/4 or 4/16/4 isn't so great accoustically? For the front two roooms (master & nursery/study) we are prepared to spend a little more to get both thermal & accoustic bliss. Without breaking the bank what is a good solution for these two rooms? We'd like to use uPVC frames & have some sort of tilt/turn system for airflow. Re: Best way to block freeway & train noises via windows 2Jul 31, 2010 3:43 pm suprok It is the windows that concern me - we are planning on using double glazing throughout - but I believe standard 4/12/4 or 4/16/4 isn't so great accoustically? For the front two roooms (master & nursery/study) we are prepared to spend a little more to get both thermal & accoustic bliss. Without breaking the bank what is a good solution for these two rooms? We'd like to use uPVC frames & have some sort of tilt/turn system for airflow. 6.38/10/4 or 8.38/9/4 STC 34.5. Tilt & Turn no problem. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Best way to block freeway & train noises via windows 4Aug 01, 2010 4:13 am In such situation we use normally 6.38 or 8.38 lam/16mm airspace/4 clear. A gap as low as 10mm is not ideal for noise insulation. Recently we have done a house right beside the railway 8.38 lam/12mm airspace/5mm clear/12mm airspace/4 clear. Sound like an overkill but that's how it was specified by an engineer and it works perfect. It was quite heavy Change is what we need! Can we? YES WE CAN!!!!! Re: Best way to block freeway & train noises via windows 5Aug 01, 2010 7:49 am dymonite69 When you read the factsheet, my STC is equivalent to the Rw. Only a difference of 10 is noticeable, so don't waste money chasing a difference of 2 or 3. Also the glazing I recommend in my post is laminated on one pane, that's what the .38mm refers to. Yielding rW (or STC) 34.5. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Best way to block freeway & train noises via windows 6Aug 01, 2010 9:30 am Laminated glass : Rw 20-30 Laminated glass + extra pane 10mm gap: STC 34.5 Laminated glass + extra pane 50-100mm gap: Rw 45-47 STC is roughly Rw but it is an average over the frequency spectrum. Low frequency is harder to block out. The articles notes that: Laminated glass is better than float glass. Float glass is effectively same as toughened, wired and patterned glass. It is the PVB layer in laminated glass that makes it block sound. Double glazing helps but the air gap needs to be > 50mm for acoustic insulation. DG for thermal insulation is around 12-16mm. Flanking noise is important. Use hinge type windows with good seals rather than sash/sliding. STC 20 Normal speech can be easily heard and understood 30 Loud speech can be easily heard and understood 35 Loud speech heard, but not understood 40 Loud speech now only a murmur 45 Loud speech not heard, music systems / heavy traffic noise still a potential problem STC Re: Best way to block freeway & train noises via windows 7Aug 01, 2010 12:00 pm Thanks for all the information - not as straightforward as one would hope for. Given that we are trying to block both low frequency (truck rumble) & high frequency (train track squeal) this makes things even more difficult. Having a 100mm air gap is not that practical. A triple glazed system would probably suit but might be a little expensive. I guess an STC of around 34.5 might be ok - it's hard to know without testing it in our actual situation though. Regardless any reduction from our current rattling no-seals single pane windows would be a massive improvement. Re: Best way to block freeway & train noises via windows 8Aug 01, 2010 3:37 pm suprok Thanks for all the information - not as straightforward as one would hope for. Given that we are trying to block both low frequency (truck rumble) & high frequency (train track squeal) this makes things even more difficult. Having a 100mm air gap is not that practical. A triple glazed system would probably suit but might be a little expensive. I guess an STC of around 34.5 might be ok - it's hard to know without testing it in our actual situation though. Regardless any reduction from our current rattling no-seals single pane windows would be a massive improvement. I don't know your location, but we have a sound box in our showroom in Hallam that you can play with. It has a CD player inside. It is glazed 4/12/4, and even that makes a huge difference. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Best way to block freeway & train noises via windows 9Aug 02, 2010 2:59 pm Dear Suprok, you are clearly on the way to an egergy efficient home, what with using ICFs and uPVC windows. A union that we have been involved with increasingly so, over the last few years. To refer to your original question about IGUs (Insulated Glazing Units) 16mm would be in the larger range of gaps used in domestic double glazed projects. The basic understanding is this. (anyone is welcome to wade in and correct me if I am wrong) The larger the gap, the better the acoustic performance and the smaller the gap, the smaller the Acoustic benefit. Thermal performance is a bit different. An argon gap of between 10-16mm offers excellent thermal performance but gaps over say 20mm, will provide an opportunity for convection and therefore diminished thermal benefit. Data from the Viridian glass guide shows 4/12/4 clear IGU with a uValue of 2.5. It also shows its singleglazed laminate (6.38mm) VLAM Hush to have a uValue of 5.7. The lowest uValue available in Viridian single glazing is 3.6 using comfort plus. Given the relative price competitiveness of double glazing vs Comfort Plus nowadays, I would probably ask for quotes with a price option for both types of glazing and their relative WERS performance data. Then you can sit back and decide after considering all the cost and performance options of your window quotes. Wouldnt hurt to visit some showrooms either. Good luck with it, Brad ----- Re: Best way to block freeway & train noises via windows 10Aug 02, 2010 6:43 pm Visionarii Brad The lowest uValue available in Viridian single glazing is 3.6 using comfort plus. Given the relative price competitiveness of double glazing vs Comfort Plus nowadays, I would probably ask for quotes with a price option for both types of glazing and their relative WERS performance data. Then you can sit back and decide after considering all the cost and performance options of your window quotes. ----- Now there are U values, and there are U values. Since the U value represents the transmission of heat in watts per square metre per degree celsius, and Low-E operates only on radiant heat, whereas double glazing with its air insulator works on conducted heat, they really can't be compared anywhere except some piece of software. Where will a home generate sufficient radiant energy to lose heat through windows at any rate comparable to conducted heat loss? It won't. Low-E in laminated form used to be worthwhile to stop radiant heat entering the North and West facing windows via sunlight, that was until Viridian decided that unless you got a thermal assessment done for your home by Viridian, they would not guarantee it. Why? Because the temperature differential between outside and inside has been causing spontaneous fracture of the laminated Low-E due to thermal shock. So they offer the non-laminated variety, and that in single glazed form is too damn difficult to clean. But as I say, Low-E is ONLY useful for RADIANT heat and doesn't stop any conducted heat, for that you need double glazing... Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Our standard double-glazed window is tested to achieve, Rw 34, and can be glazed to suit Rw 39. The price is good too... 3 9478 Hi, I have a steel frame house which was built 2 years ago. When you are down stairs you can hear clunking noises when someone is walking around. We were told if you… 0 4461 4 9069 |