Browse Forums Windows & Doors Re: N3 Wind Rating Windows - minimum glass thickness? 3Jul 27, 2010 8:32 am Thanks Ed, much appreciated. Is there any publicly available information that allows us to find out whether the particular windows our builder has installed, with the 4mm float glass they've come with, is suitable for our N3 wind rating site? Re: N3 Wind Rating Windows - minimum glass thickness? 4Jul 27, 2010 8:47 am Hyper Thanks Ed, much appreciated. Is there any publicly available information that allows us to find out whether the particular windows our builder has installed, with the 4mm float glass they've come with, is suitable for our N3 wind rating site? No, that's the real pain. Every window manufacturer must publish energy data, but not the structural performance data. The glass thickness (and whether it needs to be toughened) depends on the area of each piece. But the N rating depends on the design of the whole window or door, and the size of each. 99% of domestic windows are designed to meet N2 only, and require beefing up to reach N3. Your builder is responsible for communicating the terrain category (N rating) to the window supplier, who is responsible for specifying the product to meet your terrain category. The products should each be labeled with the N rating, usually inside the jamb. That said, I recently saw a door that was labeled N2 and would not pass N1 for water penetration. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: N3 Wind Rating Windows - minimum glass thickness? 6Jul 28, 2010 7:20 pm Hyper Thanks Ed, we'll see if we can find some sort of labelling on the windows. Looks like this... (this one is N2) "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: N3 Wind Rating Windows - minimum glass thickness? 8Jul 29, 2010 6:42 pm Well, the plot thickens. I had a look for the labelling on some of the windows on our home and found the following: * 0.46mWx1.8mH timber window: Structural 700/Water 150 * 0.85Wx1.8H timber window: 1000/150 * 4.2m & 2.8m wide aluminium sliding doors: 1000/150 * 1.8 x 1.8 sliding aluminium window: 700/150 * Another supposedly identical 1.8x1.8 sliding aluminium window: 1000/150! * 2.4m W x 1.8m H aluminium sliding window: 700/150 * All the aluminium awning windows: no labels that I could find. So what does this mean? Looking at the label sample above, does this mean that some of my windows are N2 and some are N3, even though they should all be N3? I have no idea how two supposedly identical windows (that even look identical externally to my eye) can end up with different rating labels - unless one of them has been mislabelled. I'm currently not filled with any confidence that we have been supplied what we have paid for, and more importantly that my children's bedrooms have windows that are of the correct wind rating. Re: N3 Wind Rating Windows - minimum glass thickness? 9Jul 30, 2010 8:49 am Hyper Well, the plot thickens. I had a look for the labelling on some of the windows on our home and found the following: * 0.46mWx1.8mH timber window: Structural 700/Water 150 * 0.85Wx1.8H timber window: 1000/150 * 4.2m & 2.8m wide aluminium sliding doors: 1000/150 * 1.8 x 1.8 sliding aluminium window: 700/150 * Another supposedly identical 1.8x1.8 sliding aluminium window: 1000/150! * 2.4m W x 1.8m H aluminium sliding window: 700/150 * All the aluminium awning windows: no labels that I could find. So what does this mean? Looking at the label sample above, does this mean that some of my windows are N2 and some are N3, even though they should all be N3? I have no idea how two supposedly identical windows (that even look identical externally to my eye) can end up with different rating labels - unless one of them has been mislabelled. I'm currently not filled with any confidence that we have been supplied what we have paid for, and more importantly that my children's bedrooms have windows that are of the correct wind rating. Looks like a mess to me, yes the labels are reading N2 and N3... but since they are ambiguous, you should seek more information. To gain your certificate of occupancy the window supplier will have provided a Glazing Certificate guaranteeing that the products meet all the standards - you should ask your builder to show you that. You should also ask your builder to obtain copies of the test certificates for the products from his supplier, this will tell you what they have been tested to achieve. You can also call the Australian Window Association who audit every member annually. In the end, it sounds like you have not got what was specified, your biggest risk is water coming into your home. According to the labels, the sliding doors perform extraordinarily well, make sure you see that certificate too, I am doubting that these are correct for the widths you have. Remembering that test certificates apply to specific sizes and below. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: N3 Wind Rating Windows - minimum glass thickness? 10Jul 30, 2010 9:05 am Hello Ed, Whos responsiblity is it to ensure N rating is correct, is it safe to assume that a window supplier would not manufacture windows unless builder provided N rating? cheers Re: N3 Wind Rating Windows - minimum glass thickness? 11Jul 30, 2010 9:22 am rommel00 Hello Ed, Whos responsiblity is it to ensure N rating is correct, is it safe to assume that a window supplier would not manufacture windows unless builder provided N rating? cheers The window supplier is provided plans which are usually marked with the terrain category, if the plans are not marked then the window supplier would quote the windows as N2 only, say, and this would be stated on the quotation. It's your builder's responsibility to you to build the home to meet standards. It's the suppliers' responsibility to the builder and to the home owner, to supply products to meet standards (if the standards have been communicated). If this fails you would be entitled to sue both. If we are taking about safety glass, then it is the window supplier's responsibility to ensure that this is in the correct windows, but it's the builder's responsibility to put the window in the right location (mistakes happen when windows the same size are put in the wrong locations). Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: N3 Wind Rating Windows - minimum glass thickness? 12Jul 30, 2010 9:36 am Sorry, rommell00... answering your question... the window supplier may assume that the terrain category is N2 unless otherwise stated, unless the location is obviously not N2, like on a mountain (EcoClssic is N4 min for windows and N3 for sliding doors). The exact location decides the category, that includes trees and nearby houses. Without the information on the plan, the supplier can't know. Ed Edited 10am "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: N3 Wind Rating Windows - minimum glass thickness? 13Jul 31, 2010 7:12 pm Thanks for all the information Ed. We've notified the builders and it is now up to them to sort it out with the window company. Here's hoping it can get quickly sorted out without holding up the build and costing us yet more rent money. Re: N3 Wind Rating Windows - minimum glass thickness? 14Jul 31, 2010 7:39 pm Hyper Thanks for all the information Ed. We've notified the builders and it is now up to them to sort it out with the window company. Here's hoping it can get quickly sorted out without holding up the build and costing us yet more rent money. You are welcome. I think some items will need replacing with stronger products. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: N3 Wind Rating Windows - minimum glass thickness? 15Aug 07, 2010 7:09 pm The builder is now telling us that the manufacturer (a large supposedly reputable company that operates across most of Australia) has told them that N2 windows are perfectly fine for an N3 wind rated property because most of the windows in question are 1800mm wide or less, and that they are just mislabelled - even though one of the windows is labelled 700/150 and is 2400 wide! We don't know what to believe any more, but it is looking at this stage like both the builder and the manufacturer are going to refuse to do anything, just like the builder is looking unlikely agree to properly repair the sliding door that was badly bent and damaged in a recent storm. If I thought there was any chance they'd help, I'd ring the Australian Window Association and ask for assistance, but my experience with these sorts of organisations in the past has not been good as they appear to be there to support their members not to support their members' end customers. Re: N3 Wind Rating Windows - minimum glass thickness? 16Aug 07, 2010 7:18 pm Hyper The builder is now telling us that the manufacturer (a large supposedly reputable company that operates across most of Australia) has told them that N2 windows are perfectly fine for an N3 wind rated property because most of the windows in question are 1800mm wide or less, and that they are just mislabelled - even though one of the windows is labelled 700/150 and is 2400 wide! We don't know what to believe any more, but it is looking at this stage like both the builder and the manufacturer are going to refuse to do anything, just like the builder is looking unlikely agree to properly repair the sliding door that was badly bent and damaged in a recent storm. If I thought there was any chance they'd help, I'd ring the Australian Window Association and ask for assistance, but my experience with these sorts of organisations in the past has not been good as they appear to be there to support their members not to support their members' end customers. I think your sliding windows and doors will not meet the standard. To get your certificate of occupancy they must be N3. I have no idea about the AWA, but it's surely worth a try. Apart from that, get an independent inspector, just make sure he/she knows what to look for. You don't have to accept, and pay for, a house that is not up to scratch. Ed EDIT: Just an idea, why not ring another branch of your window supplier and ask what is the largest size they make the sliding window and sliding door to meet N3? "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: N3 Wind Rating Windows - minimum glass thickness? 17Aug 23, 2010 8:16 pm To close out this topic, here's what ended up happening: * The window manufacturer's sales rep emailed us a document certifying that the windows meet all the required standards and a copy of the order they received from the builder stating N3 windows were ordered (which was never in doubt - what was in doubt was whether they had supplied the windows that had been ordered!) * The window manufacturer also sent out a couple of techs to have a look at the windows and sliding doors. They asserted that the windows and doors all meet N3 requirements and that it was a mistake in the factory that resulted in the windows having the wrong labels or no labels at all. They pulled all the N2 labels off and replaced them with N3 labels, and put N3 labels on the windows that were missing labels. So short of paying someone independent to come in an assess the windows, we have no choice but to trust what the manufacturer is now telling us. We're having enough other troubles with the build that we're just going to have to let this go and move on. @Ed - thanks again for your advice. If the builder would have let us look at 'importing' your double glazed windows into SA we would have certainly looked into it further. Re: N3 Wind Rating Windows - minimum glass thickness? 18Nov 15, 2010 1:27 pm I'm wondering how you are going with your issue? We've had a similar issue to you in that our sliding doors have no sticker on them, however we have found the rating sticker on all the windows. We're also in a rural area and the engineer for our build has spec'd at N3 wind rating (and they're the windows we have) however I think this should be N4 as we are coastal and on top of a hill with no shielding... Also our sliding doors and windows all leak because they haven't been installed correctly (no flashings have been put in, hence the leaking - I dare say yours will also be the same) and we've now called in an independent building inspector to go over the house and write up a report as the builders have not wanted to cooperate in fixing the issue. It's very frustrating considering we notified them back in June when it would have been simpler to fix! Re: N3 Wind Rating Windows - minimum glass thickness? 19Nov 15, 2010 5:49 pm edegv I'm wondering how you are going with your issue? We've had a similar issue to you in that our sliding doors have no sticker on them, however we have found the rating sticker on all the windows. We're also in a rural area and the engineer for our build has spec'd at N3 wind rating (and they're the windows we have) however I think this should be N4 as we are coastal and on top of a hill with no shielding... Also our sliding doors and windows all leak because they haven't been installed correctly (no flashings have been put in, hence the leaking - I dare say yours will also be the same) and we've now called in an independent building inspector to go over the house and write up a report as the builders have not wanted to cooperate in fixing the issue. It's very frustrating considering we notified them back in June when it would have been simpler to fix! If you're in an N3 area, I have MAJOR doubts your sliding doors are suitable, and definitely not N4, which you may need. If you have large windows and they are sliding, I would say these also may not measure up. Your inspector should ask to see the window suppliers test reports. If you need help interpreting these, feel free to PM me. Thanks Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: N3 Wind Rating Windows - minimum glass thickness? 20Nov 15, 2010 7:18 pm edegv I'm wondering how you are going with your issue? In the end all the window manufacturer did was say that the windows had been incorrectly labelled in the factory as N2 instead of N3 and then sent someone out to change the stickers on our windows. They also provided some generic documentation (including a copy of the builder's window order) stating that our windows (including the 4.2m bi-parting sliding door) were N3 and that they met the required standards. We have no idea if the windows really meet the requirements. The builder did appear genuinely concerned about the windows meeting the wind rating requirement (I suppose the buck will hit them on the way past on its way to the window manufacturer if something goes wrong), so we made as much of a fuss as we could at that stage of the build and then moved on to the next problem. We've not moved in yet so we won't know how things will go for rattles, leaks, and 'non-blowinedness' until next winter. If something bad does happen with the windows down the track in a storm, then I'm hopeful that the insurance company will be more than happy to go after everyone who may be liable. I still wish we had the budget to go for a decent double glazed product over the single glazed aluminium we've ended up with. Such is life. My land is 260m2 (10m x 26m) located in claymore NSW. Under campbelltown council. I know in general the following setbacks would apply ground floor side setback =… 0 6956 Hi, only for walking. It is a narrow 1.5m paved area next to house. 2 5456 Thanks Draftroom that definitely helps a heap. We are still at the very early stage of planning to see what kind of house would fit on our plot. While we are on a… 3 15784 |