Browse Forums Windows & Doors 1 Sep 10, 2007 1:08 pm UK article talking about PVC and timber windows.
http://www.woodforgood.com/lwwpdf/window_of_opportunity.pdf Very detailed report on Timber versus PVC windows in the UK - based on facts. Lifecycle, (20 years for PVC) environmental impact, durability, cost, maintenance, cleaning etc. And as for Aluminium These figures are very interesting re the base material impact on the environment. Material Amount of CO2 released during the manufacture per kg of material Aluminium 27.50 kg Plastic 3.40-11.00 kg Copper 8.5 kg Glass 1.30 kg Iron 1.75 kg Lead 2.50 kg Rubber 4.80 kg Steel 3.20 kg Timber N/a And the following table compares the atmospheric carbon released per cubic metre in the production of timber and some other common building materials. Material Carbon Released (kg/m3) Rough Sawn Timber 15 Steel 5320 Concrete 120 Aluminium 22000 Source data came from from here http://www.ab.deakin.edu.au/online/vgallery/2004/srt251/team28/timber.htm Steve Re: Timber, Aluminium or PVC Windows - Eco Impact 2Sep 11, 2007 5:17 pm Hi Steve
I have no bone to pick with any particular technology for windows. EcoClassic chose aluminium, uPVC and thermally broken aluminium as the base products. If we thought the future was in timber we would also supply timber windows (and may do so sometime in the future). I do think the market will move to uPVC over the next 3-5 yrs, just like its USA and European counterparts. Why? The thermal efficiency coupled with low maintenance and cost. It really is a great product with fantastic hardware which is fully adustable over its life. What's wrong with timber? High maintenance which means cost of labour and materials. You must continually paint or coat timber to maintain its appearance. Is that built into the life cycle costing or the carbon emission data? Your example is from a pro-wood site so needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. I don't know the percentage but a lot of aluminium contains recycled material - is that included in the figures? On the uPVC front, it's all recyclable. Interestingly uPVC requires about 2 barrels of oil to make 1 tonne of material. Aluminium requires the energy equivalent of 1 barrel of oil to convert bauxite to 1 tonne of ingot. With uPVC, the oil is still there, with aluminium it's in the atmosphere. In the end oil is a resource that we have, we can either burn it to power vehicles or make electricity or we can make plastics. With regard to lifecycle, I understand that uPVC windows started in the 1940s in Germany and there are still some of this vintage around. Anyway, if timber is the way to go then EcoClassic will supply a timber alternative too. Personally I like my timber with leaves on it Thanks Ed If I write "I" please read "We"! Be good. Re: Timber, Aluminium or PVC Windows - Eco Impact 3Sep 11, 2007 11:32 pm Yep - 2 barrels of oil and away we go.
Oil is a resource we have now - So what happens when that runs out? Estimations suggest 30 to 40 years and we will have used it all!!! I already have some timber windows and I grew up with them - and they are not that much maintenance. Timber is a renewable resource - anything oil based or energy intensive to manufacture is finite. Steve Re: Timber, Aluminium or PVC Windows - Eco Impact 4Sep 12, 2007 6:47 am I grew up with timber windows too - they were either very draughty or painted shut (double hung & casement). That's another thing - what's the carbon emission data for air leakage - for sure timber is a major offender.
The oil under the ground will surely run out fast - but that's because we are burning it. If we made useful things it would last a lot longer. One barrel of crude oil makes about 19½ gallons of gasoline, 9 gallons of fuel oil, 4 gallons of jet fuel, and 11 gallons of other products, including lubricants, kerosene, asphalt, which include 1.2 gallons for petrochemical feedstocks to make plastics. So plastics consumption represents 3% of the oil - if all the oil reserves were used for plastics then oil would last 30yrs/3% or around 1000 years (I am guessing here - maybe the plastic component is a small part of the oil). And at the end of 1000 years we can use something else to make plastic . The first plastic was made from.... MILK A scary fact - EVERY DAY, the US consumes enough oil to cover a football field with a column of oil 2500 feet tall. That's 121 million cubic feet. That is one huge hole under the earth. Thanks for the challenges Steve... in the end - timber or aluminium or uPVC - makes no difference to me. Personally I think uPVC is the best Eco choice. Ed If I write "I" please read "We"! Be good. Re: Timber, Aluminium or PVC Windows - Eco Impact 5Sep 12, 2007 5:45 pm Yak_Chat I already have some timber windows and I grew up with them - and they are not that much maintenance. Steve And what did your dad think about the maintenance? If I write "I" please read "We"! Be good. Re: Timber, Aluminium or PVC Windows - Eco Impact 6Sep 12, 2007 6:18 pm They were fine - I used to actually climb the scaffolding with him to sand, linseed oil & then paint the weatherboards with him and at the same time the windows got a going over - every 10 or so years in QLD.
All part of good building maintenance. Steve Re: Timber, Aluminium or PVC Windows - Eco Impact 7Sep 14, 2007 4:25 pm I am reluctantly dipping my toe into the twilight zone that is the window and door section of the forum so please be nice to me
Each of the framing materials mentioned has its relevant pros and cons and it would take a week or more to detail and we would still never agree. All evidence suggests timber to be the most environmentally friendly however a number of concerns exist even with timber. Each hectare logged releases from 150 tonnes of carbon up to 1200 tonnes in an old growth forest (ie in Tasmania). Nearly 60 million tonnes of carbon is directly attributable to land clearing pa in Australia (equivalent of 14.4million cars) The regrowth forests would take anywhere from 50 – 150 years to absorb between 75 & 90% of the pre logged forests. Greenhouse gasses have increased 30% since pre industrial times with 40% of this increase coming from tree clearing and logging While environmental concerns are important without factoring in economic and social issues you will never have a sustainable solution. Remember in Australia over 500,000 household are estimated to be under housing stress and this number is likely to increase The points you raised Steve are valuable in debating this critical issue. And I have timber windows (over 15 years old) in perfect condition (except for 2 windows that face west that require a bit of maintenance). Currently planning a second story extension that will likely have aluminium double glazed windows (due in part to access and maintenance issues) I will also put the highest rating installation into both the wall and ceiling as even batts rated with a R value of 2 (U value of 0.5) exceed a fibreglass triple glazed window with argon gas and warm edge technology. All the best The duck Re: Timber, Aluminium or PVC Windows - Eco Impact 8Sep 16, 2007 1:30 am Duckey - Never fear to tread - for all thoughts lead somwhere.
Pesonally - I think timber for windows, doors floors should only be from either recycled timber - or farmed trees - ie plantation timber. Agree the issue with the second level house - maintenance issue - above re scaffolding - and if we could get a state and federal governments that guaranteed products were recycled - even if new - ie this aluminium was made from recycled product - then we are one big step forward. Check out alu from bauxite versus alu from recycled material energy usage. The big issue I have with plastics - _whatever they are - is there are so many variants - that it's normally just too damn hard to work out what can be recycled - because with one very small bit of contamination - ie the wrong sort of plastic in the mix - it can wreck the whole batch of recycled material. And I'm talking .01% of the material can ruin a whole batch. Steve Re: Timber, Aluminium or PVC Windows - Eco Impact 9Sep 19, 2007 9:32 pm I think the amount of maintenance and the desirability of timber windows depends partly on your climate.
I live in Tassie and at the moment in a rental house with timber framed windows. They are just terrible in winter - they stick with moisture absorbtion and actual mould grows on them due to condensation! It's pretty gross. I am sure this wouldn't be anywhere near as much of a problem if the owners had properly maintained the timber, but for whatever reason they haven't. I am definitely not getting timber when we construct our home here. "And why did I have to take a cab?!" Re: Timber, Aluminium or PVC Windows - Eco Impact 10Sep 19, 2007 9:56 pm how old do you think the house is? Never argue with an idiot!!!! They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience. Re: Timber, Aluminium or PVC Windows - Eco Impact 11Sep 19, 2007 9:58 pm how old do you think the house is? Never argue with an idiot!!!! They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience. Re: Timber, Aluminium or PVC Windows - Eco Impact 12Sep 27, 2007 9:54 pm Please don't confuse forest harvesting and land clearing (permanent removal of native vegetation). Farmers, developers and Indonesian sawmills clear land, foresters harvest & manage forests. Don't mix them up.
OK, Tassie may not be a shining light ... but don't let that tarnish all forests (native & plantation). By the way - not all native forests are old-growth - the average city slicker looks at 40 year old mountain ash plantations & calls it pristine old growth forest! A sustainably managed forest is the most eco-friendly source of building materials - particularly if the timber is local. I think the 500,000-800,000 hectares of scrub that Queensland farmers cleared each year during the 1990's and early noughties contributed way more carbon (and got rid of more biodiversity) than any forestry activity ever has in this country. Regrowth forests actually sequester a hell of a lot more carbon than a senescing old growth forest. Even better are plantations that replace the methane-producing beef farms. Don't quote misleading carbon statistics to justify plastic or aluminium window frames! DuckyQuackQuack Each hectare logged releases from 150 tonnes of carbon up to 1200 tonnes in an old growth forest (ie in Tasmania). Nearly 60 million tonnes of carbon is directly attributable to land clearing pa in Australia (equivalent of 14.4million cars) The regrowth forests would take anywhere from 50 – 150 years to absorb between 75 & 90% of the pre logged forests. Greenhouse gasses have increased 30% since pre industrial times with 40% of this increase coming from tree clearing and logging Re: Timber, Aluminium or PVC Windows - Eco Impact 13Sep 27, 2007 9:57 pm And yes, we live in a house with 80-year old timber windows. Couldn't afford timber windows in our new build, but don't see the aluminium hanging in there for 80 years! Re: Timber, Aluminium or PVC Windows - Eco Impact 14Oct 03, 2007 5:12 pm all statistics from either the Wilderness Society or the Stern Report
and i have timber windows Never argue with an idiot!!!! They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience. Re: Timber, Aluminium or PVC Windows - Eco Impact 15Nov 08, 2007 12:13 am i am not sure how old this house is but i'd guess roughly 10 years or so ........ possibly 20 tops.
the previous house i lived in (which we owned not rented) was 20 years old when we moved in and 28 years old when we sold it and had aluminium framed windows which were no muss no fuss. "And why did I have to take a cab?!" I don't know them all, the first 2 top of your list are best known. Rylock is a good company, Stegbar is for sale. 4 16156 yep sounds good make the footing bigger to to allow for the pipe in the middle 3 7250 Plumbers 'can be' plumbers, made all the worse by self certification which the building surveyor invariably accepts as proof of compliance! The good thing is that you know know. 3 4768 |