Browse Forums Windows & Doors 1 May 21, 2009 9:09 pm I just read the following quote at http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 83861.html "People think plastic lasts longer than timber and it's maintenance free," he says. "The truth is, after about 20 or 30 years, uPVC discolours and warps and the ironmongery wears out. Yet the wooden windows people are replacing have often been there 100 years." OK, no prizes for guessing what this guy sells. What do you think? I was under the impression that PVC windows lasted for ever with no maintenance. Re: Life expectancy of uPVC windows. 2May 21, 2009 10:20 pm I'm after long life and I'm going for anodised aluminium windows. From what I can gather, and I'm no expert, an anodized aluminium window will look the same in 100 years (unless you are near salt water). Nothing else lasts this long. Powder coating will start to decompose after 20 or 30. Timber needs to be continually recoated. And now we see that PVC only last 20 to 30 years. Face brick, glass and anodised alumimium. Perfect building material that will look the same (after a good clean) after 100 years. Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Re: Life expectancy of uPVC windows. 3May 21, 2009 10:43 pm Casa2 I'm after long life and I'm going for anodised aluminium windows. From what I can gather, and I'm no expert, an anodized aluminium window will look the same in 100 years (unless you are near salt water). Nothing else lasts this long. Powder coating will start to decompose after 20 or 30. Timber needs to be continually recoated. And now we see that PVC only last 20 to 30 years. Face brick, glass and anodised alumimium. Perfect building material that will look the same (after a good clean) after 100 years. My research tells me 40 yrs on uPVC windows. We've just put them in our new custom house & I expect not to have to worry about them in my lifetime. Our window maker uses German Kommerling uPVC - pays to go with a quality company whichever you choose. We like the versatility of the tilt & turn. The thermal break with uPVC performs better than aluminum, together with double glazing of course. Re: Life expectancy of uPVC windows. 4May 22, 2009 12:11 am Timber? My mum had a timber broom which was her mother's mother's, that's nearly 60 years for timber. In all that time it only needed 5 new heads and 3 new handles. Timber is a gamble whether it will last 50 years and that's with heaps of hard work and maintenance. Aluminium will last a long long, time, and maybe outlast the availability of replacement parts - that's happening today with some brands with rollers etc.. PVC windows have been around since the 1940s and some of those are still going strong. PVC hardware is pretty universal and will probably be available in its present form for as long as the windows last - which is said to be 50 yrs plus. Today's hardware is fully adjustable - a masterpiece of engineering. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Life expectancy of uPVC windows. 5May 22, 2009 8:41 am Ed, As you said, aluminium lasts a long long time. But why do so many people reduce the life/increase the maintence by powdercoating it (near saltwater excepted)? Cheers, Casa Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Re: Life expectancy of uPVC windows. 6May 22, 2009 8:44 am Casa2 Ed, As you said, aluminium lasts a long long time. But why do so many people reduce the life/increase the maintence by powdercoating it (near saltwater excepted)? Cheers, Casa Not Ed here but...form and function are sometimes like matter and anti-matter they just can't co-exist... mmm....donuts Homer Simpson 1956- Links: Site Costs Ready Reckoner | H1 Addiction Medical Advice | Château TDL: The Backyard Re: Life expectancy of uPVC windows. 8May 22, 2009 9:22 am Casa2 Ed, As you said, aluminium lasts a long long time. But why do so many people reduce the life/increase the maintence by powdercoating it (near saltwater excepted)? Cheers, Casa Truth is anodising is cheaper everywhere else in the world except Australia. It's fitness for purpose... powdercoat is easy, robust and repairable... anodising is less robust and not repairable. Powdercoat is also a preferred look by the majority aesthetically - if it wasn't they would choose colours that match anodised. That said you can repaint powdercoating although it is not cheap. The very best finishing system is wet coat, beats pc & anodised. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Life expectancy of uPVC windows. 9Jun 15, 2009 5:40 pm ElephantGuy I just read the following quote at http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 83861.html "People think plastic lasts longer than timber and it's maintenance free," he says. "The truth is, after about 20 or 30 years, uPVC discolours and warps and the ironmongery wears out. Yet the wooden windows people are replacing have often been there 100 years." OK, no prizes for guessing what this guy sells. What do you think? I was under the impression that PVC windows lasted for ever with no maintenance. Just a quick point out that the article is UK-centric and probably accurate within it's origins. The uPVC we find here has (hopefully) ticked all the boxes required for our specific climatic requirements. It is absolutely true that not so long ago, some PVC windows in Australia have been prematurely replaced due to severe UV degradation, sometimes within a matter of months. Only a few years ago, a huge technological change took place and saw the birth of a UV resistant uPVC product. This is the uPVC we use in Australia. Bottom line here. Everything fades including powdercoat, paint and Natural anodising. Even the best and latest uPVC colour vinyls are guaranteed against visible fading for only 10 years. The key word is visible, every thing fades from day one, we just cant notice it. However the useful lifespan of uPVC is undeniable. Nowadays, 70 plus years is considered normal with no painting or preserving rituals required. The bonus however is the beauty of it's recyclability. (depending on the manufacturer) uPVC windows can be 100% recycled for 5 generations. This means that you grab your chequebook and we install your magnificient uPVC windows. 70 years later (or more) the windows are pulled out. The recyclate is stable enough to be re-extruded into windows again and installed somewhere for another 70 plus years. We repeat this again till the uPVC has gone through 5 recycling processes. After that the recyclate finds another use as carpets or cups etc. In doing this, we have kept the "evil" uPVC out of landfill for about 500 years. Timber window recycling by comparison is not on the same page. Best regards Brad --------- Re: Life expectancy of uPVC windows. 10Jun 15, 2009 7:38 pm I would have thought that natural anodising never "fades", or more importantly never requires recoating or recycling. Pushing the concept of recycling window frames would scare most people. It certainly scares me. I want my windows to outlast my house and never never want to recycle them. Also, from a purely economic point of view, how much of my window cost will I get back from recycling? When it comes to the ideal window material for appearance, cost and longevity, I think nothing beats aluminium. Of course it's a lousy insulator, but that's were PVC comes in ... use it for a thermal break ... nice a and hidden away where it won't look ugly and is not exposed to UV. Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Re: Life expectancy of uPVC windows. 11Jun 15, 2009 10:24 pm Casa2 Pushing the concept of recycling window frames would scare most people. It certainly scares me. I want my windows to outlast my house and never never want to recycle them. I think they have windows in heaven, so you can leave yours here... and they're PVC double glazed... "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Life expectancy of uPVC windows. 12Jun 16, 2009 10:39 am Casa2 I would have thought that natural anodising never "fades", or more importantly never requires recoating or recycling. Pushing the concept of recycling window frames would scare most people. It certainly scares me. I want my windows to outlast my house and never never want to recycle them. Also, from a purely economic point of view, how much of my window cost will I get back from recycling? When it comes to the ideal window material for appearance, cost and longevity, I think nothing beats aluminium. Of course it's a lousy insulator, but that's were PVC comes in ... use it for a thermal break ... nice a and hidden away where it won't look ugly and is not exposed to UV. Hi Casa2, Not pushing the concept but rather sharing one of the many issues we are answering through the Vinyl Council and the building fraternity in general. More and more architects are requesting our carbon footprint data, our manufacturing energy data and our recycling policy. Window longevity is something we dont feel we need to think about but we do. The spirit of recycling is not to mitigate your window cost, it is to mitigate the requirement for additional natural resources, green house emmissions, raw materials etc. Not that scary, just a reality. I accept your vision of your ideal window material as it is completely your right to prefer the appearance of aluminium. In fact millions will agree with you, but for every pro there is a con. I personally push the aluminium wheelbarrow in a big way, 95% of my production is devoted to aluminium fabrication, but here is the rub. Aluminium manufacture from mining to extrusion requires 2 and a half times the energy than the same process for uPVC. If anyone is interested I can fwd them a university paper that is devoted to this comparison. Also, aluminium is not as bulletproof as one may think. It doesnt rust but it does oxidise, attracts a mineral film and chokes its operability in time, it may not need re surfacing but it does fade. In a seaside environment, aluminium versus uPVC is no contest. Just ask any Warrnambool resident how often they need to scrape the salt away from their aluminium sliding door rollers and track. Of course there is the other side of the coin where appearance is concerned. At last years MBA homeshow we only displayed our silver uPVC windows. patrons who did not pay attention to the signage were absolutely convinced they were looking at an architectural aluminium frame (probably not perceived as ugly in those instances) Let me also state (again) that uPVC is UV stable. The colours wont fade any faster than powdercoat (we have a powdercoating plant and know a little bit about it) The crumbling yellow pvc bunk that used to dirty our suburbs is old news. Thousands of doors and windows in Saudi Arabia over the past 10 years is fair testament to their real longevity potential. Just make sure the titanium dioxide content is at least 9%. Best regards, Brad ---- Re: Life expectancy of uPVC windows. 13Jun 24, 2009 11:15 pm hi there all, i stumbled across this site yesterday & thought what a good idea, as we have been negotiating our way through the aussie owner build system for the last 6 mnths!! anyway back on topic, i just wanted to offer my opinion on original post, as i am a carpenter/joiner who installed many upvc products in the UK for over 20 yrs. the windows being removed are the ones made out of the "recycled offcuts" from the early manufactured windows.it was the same as the trims,beads,fascias etc that were made out of the "recyclable waste" material from early production, they all turned yellow in the pollution caused by traffic. i would also like to point out that the timber windows that did indeed last 100 yrs+ were made from superior 'air dried' timber & treated accordingly by old school tradesmen....not kiln dried 'zapped' timber, treated by apprentices/labourers & installed by halfwits!! best regards guy Re: Life expectancy of uPVC windows. 14Sep 21, 2009 10:07 pm Visionarii Brad The uPVC we find here has (hopefully) ticked all the boxes required for our specific climatic requirements. a huge technological change took place and saw the birth of a UV resistant uPVC product. Everything fades including powdercoat, paint and Natural anodising. Even the best and latest uPVC colour vinyls are guaranteed against visible fading for only 10 years. The key word is visible, every thing fades from day one, we just cant notice it. However the useful lifespan of uPVC is undeniable. Nowadays, 70 plus years is considered normal with no painting or preserving rituals required. The bonus however is the beauty of it's recyclability. (depending on the manufacturer) uPVC windows can be 100% recycled for 5 generations. Visionarii Brad but here is the rub. Aluminium manufacture from mining to extrusion requires 2 and a half times the energy than the same process for uPVC. The crumbling yellow pvc bunk that used to dirty our suburbs is old news. Thousands of doors and windows in Saudi Arabia over the past 10 years is fair testament to their real longevity potential. Just make sure the titanium dioxide content is at least 9%. Hi Brad, What does faded uPVC looks like? How does one know they have a good quality uPVC product with the required amount of TiO2? Would a window company be likely to release this data. Are there still manufacturers in Australia who are still using inferior quality uPVC. At least there are not different grades of aluminium. Whilst it has high initial embodied energy, the recycled energy costs are far lower and it can theoretically can be done an infinite number of times. Casa's suggestion of an alu-PVC hybrid sounds interesting but I presume it might be difficult for the extrusion process (not to mention ease of recycling). Would this be true of alu thermal break windows or is the metal too precious just to throw away? Re: Life expectancy of uPVC windows. 15Sep 22, 2009 10:11 am Hi Dymo, When I spoke of fading uPVC I was referring to the vinyl wrapped colours. The UV stable raw white uPVC is said to stay white instead of yellowing like it's old Euro climate counterparts. I would suggest that picking a level of fading in a white profile would be tough. Now the coloured vinyl profiles fade by way of lightening. The degree of fading over the first 10 years of its life is said to be unnoticeable to the human eye at 2 metres distance. Oh yes it may have faded by definition but so would have powdercoated aluminium. Regarding Titanium Dioxide, Deceuninck is happy to disclose their % but I obviuously can't speak for anyone else. I am not sure if every uPVC window extrusion available in Australia contains Titaniun Dioxide but I do know for certain that the percentages do vary between some suppliers. Yes, you would assume that there are no different grades of aluminium. I have heard of imported (so called aluminium) extrusion that landed extremely cost effectively and had the added benefit of sticking to magnets. A real point of difference I thought. Obvoiusly these rare ******* products have limited QC and are found out pretty quickly and hopefully never make it to production. My knowledge on the recyclability of thermally broken windows is limited. I dare say that most energy efficient products that contribute to minimising energy consumption will have a plan in place to mitigate it's impact on the environment when its useful life comes to a close. I will be able to fill you in on this in the near future as we are investigating the viability of extending our production lines to include thermal break. Cheers and take care, Brad ------- Re: Life expectancy of uPVC windows. 16Sep 22, 2009 1:33 pm Visionarii Brad Hi Dymo, When I spoke of fading uPVC I was referring to the vinyl wrapped colours. The UV stable raw white uPVC is said to stay white instead of yellowing like it's old Euro climate counterparts. I would suggest that picking a level of fading in a white profile would be tough. Now the coloured vinyl profiles fade by way of lightening. The degree of fading over the first 10 years of its life is said to be unnoticeable to the human eye at 2 metres distance. Oh yes it may have faded by definition but so would have powdercoated aluminium. Regarding Titanium Dioxide, Deceuninck is happy to disclose their % but I obviuously can't speak for anyone else. I am not sure if every uPVC window extrusion available in Australia contains Titaniun Dioxide but I do know for certain that the percentages do vary between some suppliers. Yes, you would assume that there are no different grades of aluminium. I have heard of imported (so called aluminium) extrusion that landed extremely cost effectively and had the added benefit of sticking to magnets. A real point of difference I thought. Obvoiusly these rare ******* products have limited QC and are found out pretty quickly and hopefully never make it to production. My knowledge on the recyclability of thermally broken windows is limited. I dare say that most energy efficient products that contribute to minimising energy consumption will have a plan in place to mitigate it's impact on the environment when its useful life comes to a close. I will be able to fill you in on this in the near future as we are investigating the viability of extending our production lines to include thermal break. Cheers and take care, Brad ------- I agree with you on most things Brad. But the highest quality vinyl films (as used by EcoClassic) are far more UV stable than the extruded master batch PVC colours, the quality, science and process coming out of Germany is excellent. Magnetic aluminium would be a very expensive window, as the only likely alloy would be Alnico. There are steel windows out there (which when protected are great) and there are stainless steel windows - which have fantastic U values. Aluminium is aluminium. 80,000 houselots later I have never had a complaint about corrosion in aluminium. Yes I know it is talked about everywhere, but I personally have never seen it - but I know washing with a solution of washing up liquid will cause accelerated corrosion with powdercoated aluminium and steel. Having said that, we have aluminium, PVC and thermally broken aluminium windows, so like you we have no need to be biased. Yes, all colours do fade, and all materials deteriorate over time... Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Life expectancy of uPVC windows. 17Jul 25, 2010 6:23 pm I have been led to believe the sealant used between glass and upvc frames has a shorter lifespan than that used for aluminum. Any of the experts out there make comment on that being a fact or not and if so what are the implications. Re: Life expectancy of uPVC windows. 18Jul 25, 2010 7:42 pm bonster I have been led to believe the sealant used between glass and upvc frames has a shorter lifespan than that used for aluminum. Any of the experts out there make comment on that being a fact or not and if so what are the implications. Untrue... we can use the same stuff for either. & we sell PVC and aluminium. Not an issue. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Life expectancy of uPVC windows. 19Jul 25, 2010 8:37 pm Thanks Ed. I got this response at the home show and my recollection was they said one used a rubber compound, the other a silicon. Will have to get down to your showroom and get quote on windows for my build. Re: Life expectancy of uPVC windows. 20Jul 26, 2010 6:10 am bonster Thanks Ed. I got this response at the home show and my recollection was they said one used a rubber compound, the other a silicon. Will have to get down to your showroom and get quote on windows for my build. Lots of things are called rubber, but they are mostly some type of plastic like EPDM. Hence much of the timber used in furniture and MDF sold in Australia today is harvested from old rubber plantations. Look forward to seeing you - if you wait until I am fit. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 3 4176 You should pressure clean your roof first and make sure the paint you buy also is anti mould. 4 18580 Personally, considering your layout (study/work desks in bedrooms), I don't think you have any other option but to leave NW windows and make them as big as possible e.g.… 7 10483 |