Do you two have to get into a p!ssing competition every single time?
Actually I think the sexual tension is palpable...
I concede, I don't have the biggest transom...
But who has the biggest mullion?
Browse Forums Windows & Doors Re: Double Glazing - Air Gaps - What's Best - Myth Vs Truth 21May 09, 2009 9:17 am ed @ EcoClassic to_do_list kyton Just as an offside comment:- Do you two have to get into a p!ssing competition every single time? Actually I think the sexual tension is palpable... I concede, I don't have the biggest transom... But who has the biggest mullion? Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Re: Double Glazing - Air Gaps - What's Best - Myth Vs Truth 22May 09, 2009 11:10 am ed @ EcoClassic dymonite69 but don't discount incremental improvements - they all make a difference. So if you want a different temperature inside to outside, then every watt saved is a watt saved. True. But watts saved per $ spent is important as well. With limited $$$ I need to find how to find the cheapest strategies to save energy. The equation works for insulated glazing units, solar hot water heaters or PV panels. I would accept a slightly less than ideal IGU gap if it meant that I could get the units for half the price compared to one with an ideal one. For instance if EcoClassic can make me the cheapest double glazed unit in the country then I happy to accept it whether or not it meets the Passivhaus standard. It's performance is well within acceptable limits. Re: Double Glazing - Air Gaps - What's Best - Myth Vs Truth 23May 09, 2009 12:39 pm [/quote] But who has the biggest mullion?[/quote] Thats easy Casa, the one who is 'double hung' ahh I need a coffee.. * Are we there yet ? Demolition has come and gone ! yippeeee..hang on that was months ago !! come on Mr Builder, dig a hole at least Finaly ! Hole Dug ! well done darren 20/06/2010. Slab is down ! Framing is complete 20/10/2010 we are progressing like a snail on heat - excited and determined but very very slow Steveo Re: Double Glazing - Air Gaps - What's Best - Myth Vs Truth 25May 09, 2009 1:29 pm dymonite69 ed @ EcoClassic dymonite69 but don't discount incremental improvements - they all make a difference. So if you want a different temperature inside to outside, then every watt saved is a watt saved. True. But watts saved per $ spent is important as well. With limited $$$ I need to find how to find the cheapest strategies to save energy. The equation works for insulated glazing units, solar hot water heaters or PV panels. I would accept a slightly less than ideal IGU gap if it meant that I could get the units for half the price compared to one with an ideal one. For instance if EcoClassic can make me the cheapest double glazed unit in the country then I happy to accept it whether or not it meets the Passivhaus standard. It's performance is well within acceptable limits. 100% agree - everyone is on a limited budget so put the $$$ where they count most. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Double Glazing - Air Gaps - What's Best - Myth Vs Truth 26May 11, 2009 4:02 pm Dear All,
It’s sad to see that someone that obviously comes from the commercial end of the market gets abused for that. It’s obviously a valuable addition to a forum that someone puts in the effort to share his knowledge about windows and doors to achieve the best for the interested person. It’s up to the individual to make up his mind about what part of the information he validates and which not. It is actually good to have more than one opinion being represented here. I agree that there are obviously slightly different studies around that define different optimal gaps depending on the filling. The opinion of 10-16mm align with the graph shown by Ed – that clearly state that going below 10mm means a quick decrease in insulation value whereby the area in between 10-16mm probably is nearly flat meaning only slight changes to the performance. The difference introduced by special coatings etc. is bigger here than the one by the gap variation. I am not quite sure why the discussion about $$$$ necessarily ranks around the assembly of the double glass unit. The glazing is only one component of a window the spacer whatever the best is such a minor aspect of the overall cost. Mostly frame material, hardware and gaskets drive the price. Meaning that cheap important hardware from e.g. China might make the price look nice, but does it mean you have a window that lasts or seals air tight. I think these are things to consider when buying windows and doors – You are not buying glass. And finding the cheapest option does definitely mean that you won’t find the best option – The range of different window and glazing types is wide – that’s why comparing apples with apples becomes fairly difficult and is definitely not a question of just the air gap.
Re: Double Glazing - Air Gaps - What's Best - Myth Vs Truth 27May 11, 2009 7:02 pm Miglas Windows Dear All, It’s sad to see that someone that obviously comes from the commercial end of the market gets abused for that. It’s obviously a valuable addition to a forum that someone puts in the effort to share his knowledge about windows and doors to achieve the best for the interested person. It’s up to the individual to make up his mind about what part of the information he validates and which not. It is actually good to have more than one opinion being represented here. I agree that there are obviously slightly different studies around that define different optimal gaps depending on the filling. The opinion of 10-16mm align with the graph shown by Ed – that clearly state that going below 10mm means a quick decrease in insulation value whereby the area in between 10-16mm probably is nearly flat meaning only slight changes to the performance. The difference introduced by special coatings etc. is bigger here than the one by the gap variation. I am not quite sure why the discussion about $$$$ necessarily ranks around the assembly of the double glass unit. The glazing is only one component of a window the spacer whatever the best is such a minor aspect of the overall cost. Mostly frame material, hardware and gaskets drive the price. Meaning that cheap important hardware from e.g. China might make the price look nice, but does it mean you have a window that lasts or seals air tight. I think these are things to consider when buying windows and doors – You are not buying glass. And finding the cheapest option does definitely mean that you won’t find the best option – The range of different window and glazing types is wide – that’s why comparing apples with apples becomes fairly difficult and is definitely not a question of just the air gap. Hi Kris Welcome to Homeone... Regarding your abuse comment, I guess you mean me Kris... I was challenged that my info was incorrect... mine was a forthright defence of my position, and ASHRAE (on whose information your windows derive their WERS ratings). I suggest you read all the relevant posts. The gap issue is important as it is an area that is often distorted by suppliers. If you or anyone has alternative data to support different gaps sizes I would be happy to hear it. As for different coatings and your reference to China - well the Chinese have far superior Low-E than do Viridian (pilks). And my Chinese chainwinder (bought here in Australia) passed the test at N4 (at Ian Bennie's laboratory in Dandenong) which the Whitco model failed - I did mention this to Whitco - but they could not give a hoot. Regarding the importance of the frame, I agree, but glass & gap is number 1. Moving from single glazed to double glazed (with reasonable gap) is 70% of the available improvement. The frame comes into it's own after that. In smaller windows the frame has a bigger impact. What drives the price is frame material, hardware and gaskets but that's only in low cost windows - the main driver in higher cost windows is everything else - admin, sales and overhead. Welcome to Homeone... Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Double Glazing - Air Gaps - What's Best - Myth Vs Truth 28May 12, 2009 2:00 pm Dear Ed,
I did mean that some other didn’t fin the right words. Anyhow. I agree with most of your data. I would be glad to see the full study if you have it available. Nonetheless I believe, and that aligns with what you said, that the air gap being over 10mm and up to 20mm is probably sensible and the changes in this area are minor, like you stated for the impact of hardware and seals. The hardware can have a significant impact to the costs (probably more than the seals). I still think that manufactures (even low cost) should look at air tightness of the system. Even the NFRC rating and the computer modeling for the energy rating in Australia does not reflect the air infiltration as a problem, which is a major issue from my point of view. I think air infiltration if crucial to all other aspects, noise insulation, convection, conduction and finally U Value. By not considering increased air movement, due to air infiltration, systems with high conductive frames and weak glazing, will always look better than they’d perform in real life. A thermal scan would easily proof that.
Re: Double Glazing - Air Gaps - What's Best - Myth Vs Truth 29May 28, 2009 2:19 pm Gents / Ladies I think this is a good debate, but lets not debate the merits of each others data. Just show us the data or your view in any event and we can work out. Having said that as the consumer there are so many brands / WERS ratings you get lost in the data. My conclusions are: 1. 4/12/4 is the best place to start if you sufficent rebate to fit it in the window. 2. Argon fill is better (but not heaps) 3. Low-e is better again 4. Get you frame right (ie not all ali as will conduct too much) In terms of priority I view($ per mj or $ per unit of comfort!) for an existing house: - draught seal your house well first - insulate well second - glaze third Having said if you have cold living room, with heaps of windows, like I have, I think (given I can shut the room off, and it has good insulation already) retrofit double glazing will make a big difference. Now, my questions ... I am looking to retrofit this room with double glazed. Initially, I asked the glazier to quote just for fitting a second pane of glass, with a 12mm spacer. He was not keen because of condensation. I then said what about using butyl mastic instead of silicone (google "butyl mastic retrofit double glazing"), but he was not keen on this either. He has suggested removing the old galss and bead and inserting new double glazed IGUs in. Any thoughts? Re: Double Glazing - Air Gaps - What's Best - Myth Vs Truth 30May 28, 2009 6:03 pm What about sound penetration? Sorry if I missed it but does the 'gap' make a difference? Also does the type of fill make a difference? I am double glazing my bedroom windows to keep sound out (or in ) - heating and cooling benefits are really just an added plus. P1T P1T Read about my building experience: http://secondhomebuild.blogspot.com Dale Alcock Homes - 'The Nautilus' in Bletchley Park, Southern River - WA Read about my Clipsal C-BUS Home Automation Project: https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=20854 Re: Double Glazing - Air Gaps - What's Best - Myth Vs Truth 31May 28, 2009 10:21 pm Perth-1st Timer What about sound penetration? Sorry if I missed it but does the 'gap' make a difference? Also does the type of fill make a difference? I am double glazing my bedroom windows to keep sound out (or in ) - heating and cooling benefits are really just an added plus. P1T Sound is different, the bigger the cavity the better. Heat benefit is limited going from 12 - 20mm and virtually none from then on. I think sound continues to improve ie even up to 100mm gap, don't think fill matters. This is one of the reasons I decided to go overseas for my double glazed windows. As the builder indicated, he's worked on many upmarket builds, these were the most well… 13 19260 Brass fly wire, you will need to cut it, shape it and jam it into brick slots 1 7488 Building Standards; Getting It Right! Hi, sorry if this is the wrong place - I’m new to the property/building journey (trying to buy my first home) so not sure where/who to go with these sorts of… 0 19163 |