Browse Forums Windows & Doors 1 Jun 11, 2009 1:44 am Hi All, can anyone tell me or point me to a i'net link that can tell me:- i) r there BCA standards for ali window frame construction in Aust. ii) speficify is there any requirement for a rubber or plastic seal where any 2 parts of ali frames abut or join each other? i have some joints with a thin black seal some without? iii) in the exterior side of the frame where the continuous rubber seal "seats" against the glass, the rubber sealing strip is lower than the holding ledge of the ali frame, which means water is sitting in the bottom of the frames like a "moat" i'm concerned this could eventually seep thru passed the edge of the glass? iv) is there any qualification needed for persons fitting ali windows? i have a leak in the corner of a triangular window & manufacturer (also fitter) says its a flashing problem not their window - roofer says the windows aren't properly weatherproofed? as an owner builder, i'm the meat between the sandwich...any technical advice would be appreciated. cheers tony Re: Standards for Ali Window manufactured frames? 2Jun 11, 2009 2:59 am T&V Hi All, can anyone tell me or point me to a i'net link that can tell me:- i) r there BCA standards for ali window frame construction in Aust. There are no prescribed specifications on window design in Australia, the window should meet the standards, which means it is either engineered by a certified engineer to meet or/and it is physically tested to meet the standards (sorry numbers defeat me at this hour (AS 1288 for glass & AS 2047 for wind & AS ????)). Ultimately physical testing is the sure way to know that a window meets the standard. There are exceptions to the rule, and custom made windows are one of these. e.g Raked or triangular windows. T&V . ii) speficify is there any requirement for a rubber or plastic seal where any 2 parts of ali frames abut or join each other? i have some joints with a thin black seal some without? As I said there is no prescription for this but it would be considered good industry practice to have gaskets between all joints. Aluminium windows are designed to have some water ingress, and weep holes in the sill are designed to allow that water to exit the window without entering the home. A gasket controls where water enters and exits the window frame, if it is absent then excess water can enter the frame and water can leave the frame at the same point, inside or outside the home. T&V iii) in the exterior side of the frame where the continuous rubber seal "seats" against the glass, the rubber sealing strip is lower than the holding ledge of the ali frame, which means water is sitting in the bottom of the frames like a "moat" i'm concerned this could eventually seep thru passed the edge of the glass? It sounds like the wrong size glazing wedge has been used - you should query this - it should not affect performance but it will be annoying. As I said seepage is acceptable. T&V iv) is there any qualification needed for persons fitting ali windows? i have a leak in the corner of a triangular window & manufacturer (also fitter) says its a flashing problem not their window - roofer says the windows aren't properly weatherproofed? as an owner builder, i'm the meat between the sandwich...any technical advice would be appreciated. cheers tony I am not sure about WA, but practices vary - in Vic they hardly ever use flashing around the window in volume building (but generally the head is flashed with something like a "Z" strip of aluminium or the head is caulked), in Qld they always use flashing. Whose responsibility? Ultimately the builder's. The window should not leak if it is properly flashed. But any water entering the window should exit via the weep holes. Check that there is a flashing to the head or the window is caulked into the construction - that must be there if the window is to work properly. There is no qualification for installing (or manufacturing) windows. The absence of gasket would be an indication of a cause (but not necessarily THE cause).
2) If it is then look to other reasons that you have observed. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Standards for Ali Window manufactured frames? 3Jun 11, 2009 11:32 pm Hi Ed, thanx so much for that valued & knowledgable response. considering what u have said, it becomes apparent to me that the "non standard" custom made windows r the problem here...ie 4 triangular windows made to fit into either end of a gable- these were left to be "made to measure" - 2 of 4 fitted like a glove 2 remaining didn't fit & were literally bashed into place with a rubber mallet & guess which direction these 2 faced - into the oncomming weather!! i've engaged a second roofer with ali window fitting experience, he's suggested 2 extra cladding strips (1 X over lapping 2 verticle back spines, other trailing under base of triangle where w/frames engages roof flashing) head of all windows (long rake) is "sealed" by silicon (well 3 out of 4 were 1 seemed to get missed!!) & he has bulked those beads up, & is looking at screwing an inverted angle against the rake which would be more solid job. these no point starting a blame game - i just want them weather proofed.... & i don't like the wrong tradies being blamed....by getting this other chap we r getting it sorted - ur comments have helped me understand physics of windows better thanxs again ed' cheers tony Re: Standards for Ali Window manufactured frames? 4Jun 12, 2009 3:43 pm Hi Tony Builders generally prefer to have raked windows "made to measure" following a site measure of the opening. It appears that roof angles and frame dimensions are not so predictable... - I think this is the problem you are having... We supply windows premade and our builders do manage to maintain their opening sizes and angles... Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Standards for Ali Window manufactured frames? 5Jun 12, 2009 7:12 pm Hi Ed, yes, we actually had it in the contract that the 4 rakes be measured to size after roof frame was completed & frames provided - glazing to follow with main glaze of whole of build. i advised them on 3 rd week of Jan that we were ready to measure, they didn't get there till after roof was on 5 weeks later, measured, we waited till May for frames, by then i had insulation in on the raked ceiling, becos of their delays they delivered with glass in & offered to install as ready glazed. then the frames didn't fit on the weather side!!! then the dramas began as corners leaked into the gyprock......whose fault...i don't know. its been a learning curve - luckily i set the windows 350mm back from end of gable, but rough weather will push rain onto the windows on weather side. i got 2 independent assessments and have a 2 part plan :- first to add extra bridging cap betweeen the 2 opposing back spines & extra weatherproofing strip along the bottom of frame to extend the engaging with roof flashing. second by using heavy waterproof tape we will by process of elimination cover suspect ares and after this is done we will have a "wait & see" policy to see if actual frame is letting water in, theres no glazing gasket fitted & it got a fair bashing during installation as it didn't fit. OR see if that glazing wedge is sound......& more silicon... but we will take it step by step & watch carefully. original suppliers don't want to know about it, but the other 2 i've called in r really being helpful & more than reasonable in their costs...i'm sure it will be fine eventually. BUT boy have i done some reading on the construction of ali & general window frames - i'll leave it all that up to u Ed too technical for me..... thanxs again - cheers tony Re: Standards for Ali Window manufactured frames? 6Jun 12, 2009 7:22 pm T&V Hi Ed, yes, we actually had it in the contract that the 4 rakes be measured to size after roof frame was completed & frames provided - glazing to follow with main glaze of whole of build. i advised them on 3 rd week of Jan that we were ready to measure, they didn't get there till after roof was on 5 weeks later, measured, we waited till May for frames, by then i had insulation in on the raked ceiling, becos of their delays they delivered with glass in & offered to install as ready glazed. then the frames didn't fit on the weather side!!! then the dramas began as corners leaked into the gyprock......whose fault...i don't know. its been a learning curve - luckily i set the windows 350mm back from end of gable, but rough weather will push rain onto the windows on weather side. i got 2 independent assessments and have a 2 part plan :- first to add extra bridging cap betweeen the 2 opposing back spines & extra weatherproofing strip along the bottom of frame to extend the engaging with roof flashing. second by using heavy waterproof tape we will by process of elimination cover suspect ares and after this is done we will have a "wait & see" policy to see if actual frame is letting water in, theres no glazing gasket fitted & it got a fair bashing during installation as it didn't fit. OR see if that glazing wedge is sound......& more silicon... but we will take it step by step & watch carefully. original suppliers don't want to know about it, but the other 2 i've called in r really being helpful & more than reasonable in their costs...i'm sure it will be fine eventually. BUT boy have i done some reading on the construction of ali & general window frames - i'll leave it all that up to u Ed too technical for me..... thanxs again - cheers tony I wish I had a customer like you - you are too kind to your window supplier... I am suspicious, considering the time it took to get these made and then they came ready glazed... did he import them? How could they get the sizes wrong??? With a customer like you I could send you some random size windows and you still pay... You can always have these silicon glazed and have the corner joins siliconed where the gaskets are missing, so they can't leak. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Standards for Ali Window manufactured frames? 7Jun 13, 2009 12:32 am Hi Ed, with age comes tollerance - in my hayday i'd have come out swinging, but i like my site to run smoothly & my buildings (& windows) soundly built (with this little exception ) - & the accounts not finalised yet i had a talk to a builder friend tonite, & he said as the windows r about 8m away from closest vision point, he'd try to get structural issues sorted, but if negotiations fail, simply silicon glaze all the joints both frame & glass joints like u suggest. that would be the finish of it i guess - but i'm just wondering realistically what effective life does silicon have. i recon i've got some on my present old house roof thats 25 yo & i looked at it couple months ago & it was still slightly " soft /rubbery" & working well! don't think i'll live much passed that point at my age.... to be fair though all the other standard size windows including our big bays with d/doors r very good, its the 4 "custom made" that r the problem. cheers tony For your reference Performance Labels: Window assemblies in housing, except timber windows, must be labelled so the label can be seen when it is in situ. 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