Browse Forums Windows & Doors Re: Window brand recommendations 61Jul 10, 2009 12:09 am You can look on the wers website to compare how they perform http://www.wers.net/residential/searchadv Custom European Cabinets - Melbourne Kitchen Specialist PM for business details as website currently being updated! Our Crazy Owner Builder Journey! Re: Window brand recommendations 62Jul 10, 2009 12:00 pm Dear Bam, The only thing I can say when just using WERS to compare windows, please be aware that you work with a very limited amount of figures that are calculated by a computer model. Given that air infiltration is separated from the overall insulation value shows that heating and cooling improvement values are to be compared with care. Research shows that 30-50% of energy lost in a home a due to air leakage. I personally find that this value is the most undervalued bit of the rating. Plus the ratings relate to a computer simulation and a test of a one off window. In some cases the every day production or the durability over time of the products tested is nowhere near the values shown in the rating. Some companies’ rate with glazing that they would never offer to you in a million years, e.g. warm edge spacer units used in computer model but not in production. Bottom line, windows that look good on paper might not perform as well in reality. Good windows are more than just a good rating; it’s about long term value which means you will have to also look at quality of materials used and hardware and seal components. Rgs Kris Miglas High Performance Composite Double Glazed Windows Phone 1300 MIGLAS Fax (03) 9728 3555 http://www.miglas.com.au Re: Window brand recommendations 63Jul 10, 2009 3:50 pm Miglas Windows Dear Bam, The only thing I can say when just using WERS to compare windows, please be aware that you work with a very limited amount of figures that are calculated by a computer model. Given that air infiltration is separated from the overall insulation value shows that heating and cooling improvement values are to be compared with care. Research shows that 30-50% of energy lost in a home a due to air leakage. I personally find that this value is the most undervalued bit of the rating. Plus the ratings relate to a computer simulation and a test of a one off window. In some cases the every day production or the durability over time of the products tested is nowhere near the values shown in the rating. Some companies’ rate with glazing that they would never offer to you in a million years, e.g. warm edge spacer units used in computer model but not in production. Bottom line, windows that look good on paper might not perform as well in reality. Good windows are more than just a good rating; it’s about long term value which means you will have to also look at quality of materials used and hardware and seal components. Rgs Kris Hi Kris Please publish your research source regarding air infiltration. Thanks Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Window brand recommendations 64Jul 21, 2009 2:46 pm Hi, i just love this resource! We're getting closer to starting our reno + new build and there are so many questions to answer! But I always breathe a sigh of relief when i come back to this forum!! Wondered if someone could help....i would like to use windows with a wider aluminium frame or sash that gives the same solid look of a timber frame. Trend have one in their range called Quantum with a 55mm sash but they don't have in their Brisbane store so there's going to be a hefty delivery and additional 4.5% on top. Does anyone know of a supplier in Brisbane or another national brand? I'm guessing I've also picked a more expensive look?? The hubby will be pleased I wonder if it would be cheaper to just go timber? (i've steered away from this as 1)the frame will be white and 2) the maintenance. ) Any thoughts?? Re: Window brand recommendations 65Jul 21, 2009 5:39 pm ladds Hi, i just love this resource! We're getting closer to starting our reno + new build and there are so many questions to answer! But I always breathe a sigh of relief when i come back to this forum!! Wondered if someone could help....i would like to use windows with a wider aluminium frame or sash that gives the same solid look of a timber frame. Trend have one in their range called Quantum with a 55mm sash but they don't have in their Brisbane store so there's going to be a hefty delivery and additional 4.5% on top. Does anyone know of a supplier in Brisbane or another national brand? I'm guessing I've also picked a more expensive look?? The hubby will be pleased I wonder if it would be cheaper to just go timber? (i've steered away from this as 1)the frame will be white and 2) the maintenance. ) Any thoughts?? Try any of the smaller window manufacturers as a lot make the Vantage suite. It's expensive but it will have the look you are after. Energy efficiency with wider sashes is poor. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Window brand recommendations 66Jul 21, 2009 6:24 pm ed @ EcoClassic Hi Kris Please publish your research source regarding air infiltration. Thanks Ed This could be worked out from first principles. It will be based on the difference in energy content between having the cold outside air replace the warm inside air multiplied by the rate at which this occurs. Energy loss = Energy content of inside air - Energy content of outside air Energy loss = 1297 * volume of house (m3) * (outside temperature - inside temperature) where 1.297 KJ/m3/K is the energy content of air Giving as an example: House volume = House area (150m2) * Ceiling height (2.7m) = 405 m3 Inside temp = 20 deg C Outside temp = 10 deg C Energy loss = 5253 KJ = 1.46 kWh Rate of air changes per hour (ACH) ranges between old and modern houses. 1/3 ACH for modern house up to 3 ACH for old house. Multiply this by the total energy lost gives rate of energy loss per hour This translates to 1751 KJ/hour (486 W) to 15759 KJ/hour (4378W) A 1m2 single glazed window (U value = 7 W/m2/K , Ti = 20 C, To = 10) would lose 70W. A 1m2 double glazed window (U value = 3 W/m2/K , Ti = 20 C, To = 10) would lose 30W. In the best case scenario for a 150m2 home, infiltration heat losses is equivalent to the conductive heat loss through 16 m2 of double glazed window. In the worst case, infiltration loss is equal to conductive loss through 145 m2 of double glazed window. Re: Window brand recommendations 67Jul 21, 2009 11:28 pm dymonite69 ed @ EcoClassic Hi Kris Please publish your research source regarding air infiltration. Thanks Ed This could be worked out from first principles. It will be based on the difference in energy content between having the cold outside air replace the warm inside air multiplied by the rate at which this occurs. Energy loss = Energy content of inside air - Energy content of outside air Energy loss = 1297 * volume of house (m3) * (outside temperature - inside temperature) where 1.297 KJ/m3/K is the energy content of air Giving as an example: House volume = House area (150m2) * Ceiling height (2.7m) = 405 m3 Inside temp = 20 deg C Outside temp = 10 deg C Energy loss = 5253 KJ = 1.46 kWh Rate of air changes per hour (ACH) ranges between old and modern houses. 1/3 ACH for modern house up to 3 ACH for old house. Multiply this by the total energy lost gives rate of energy loss per hour This translates to 1751 KJ/hour (486 W) to 15759 KJ/hour (4378W) A 1m2 single glazed window (U value = 7 W/m2/K , Ti = 20 C, To = 10) would lose 70W. A 1m2 double glazed window (U value = 3 W/m2/K , Ti = 20 C, To = 10) would lose 30W. In the best case scenario for a 150m2 home, infiltration heat losses is equivalent to the conductive heat loss through 16 m2 of double glazed window. In the worst case, infiltration loss is equal to conductive loss through 145 m2 of double glazed window. Kris had already answered my question as to the data source, saying it was his opinion. Your calculations are accurate thanks for doing these. The issue is the recommended ACH.The new UK Building regulations of 2006 introduced a minimum q50 air leakage standard for new naturally ventilated dwellings of 3 – 9 m3/hr/m2. Which in your example equates with an ACH of 1.1 to 3.3. As I understand it a recommended level of 0.5 - 1.0 ACH at normal pressure is healthy. Offices (which are crowded work areas) operate on a minimum or 6 ACH. So sealing up windows is fine - as long as you provide adequate ventilation elsewhere. And Kris's prior recommendation of flushing 3 x per day is woefully inadequate if the home is well sealed, in fact well sealed homes require mechanically assisted ventilation. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Window brand recommendations 68Jul 22, 2009 8:02 am Thanks Ed! I'll have a look at Vantage suite. Can i clarify with you what you mean by the wider 'sash'? i was at the understanding that the quantum range was more energy efficient due to the wider sash. I'm still a little confused with the terminology! Re: Window brand recommendations 69Jul 22, 2009 9:12 am ladds Thanks Ed! I'll have a look at Vantage suite. Can i clarify with you what you mean by the wider 'sash'? i was at the understanding that the quantum range was more energy efficient due to the wider sash. I'm still a little confused with the terminology! The Quantum window is a poor performer in energy efficiency due entirely to the wide profiles inside and outside. Aluminium conducts heat, glass is a better insulator. So all wide profile windows are poorer performers. The best performers in aluminium alone allow very little aluminium to be visible on the inside (like our EcoTech window and one other). Otherwise if you want wide profiles and energy efficiency then you need a thermally broken aluminium window - which means that the outside and inside are separated by a polyamide (plastic) strip. But even then, the Vantage thermally broken window does not perform as well as our EcoTech (non-broken) window. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Window brand recommendations 70Jul 22, 2009 10:23 am [quote="ed @ EcoClassic]As I understand it a recommended level of 0.5 - 1.0 ACH at normal pressure is healthy. Kris's prior recommendation of flushing 3 x per day is woefully inadequate if the home is well sealed, in fact well sealed homes require mechanically assisted ventilation. Ed[/quote] From what I can gather, the q50 test simulates a fresh breeze (20 mph) equivalent to 5/12 on the Beaufort scale. 1 ACH would result in 1.5Kwh heat loss in a 150m2 house which is not insignificant. The problem in Australia is finding good information and technical support about a residential heat recovery ventilator e.g. cost, warranties, %efficiency, running costs, ease of installation to domestic HVAC. All my enquiries to the major dealers of domestic ACs e.g. Daikin, Mitsubishi, Panasonic were unfruitful. Re: Window brand recommendations 71Jul 22, 2009 1:09 pm dymonite69 1 ACH would result in 1.5Kwh heat loss in a 150m2 house which is not insignificant. But it beats suffocation which is also not insignificant... Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Window brand recommendations 72Jul 22, 2009 1:38 pm ed @ EcoClassic dymonite69 1 ACH would result in 1.5Kwh heat loss in a 150m2 house which is not insignificant. But it beats suffocation which is also not insignificant... Ed The air quality issue is not so much related to oxygen levels but due to human carbon dioxide production, moisture control, CO levels from heaters and off-gassing chemical from the building fabric. In a heavily exercising average male, VO2 max = 45ml/kg/min = 189L of oxgen per hour = 900L air per hour = 0.9 m3 of air per hour CO2 production is about 80% of this (respiratory quotient) = 0.72 m3/hour There is enough 02 in a 150m3 (2.7m ceiling) bank vault to last forty hours. CO2 level might take about 24 hours before reaching 1% concentration (10000 ppm) which might cause mild symptoms. 5% (50000 ppm) would cause confusion. Re: Window brand recommendations 73Jul 22, 2009 2:21 pm dymonite69 ed @ EcoClassic dymonite69 1 ACH would result in 1.5Kwh heat loss in a 150m2 house which is not insignificant. But it beats suffocation which is also not insignificant... Ed The air quality issue is not so much related to oxygen levels but due to human carbon dioxide production, moisture control, CO levels from heaters and off-gassing chemical from the building fabric. In a heavily exercising average male, VO2 max = 45ml/kg/min = 189L of oxgen per hour = 900L air per hour = 0.9 m3 of air per hour CO2 production is about 80% of this (respiratory quotient) = 0.72 m3/hour There is enough 02 in a 150m3 (2.7m ceiling) bank vault to last forty hours. CO2 level might take about 24 hours before reaching 1% concentration (10000 ppm) which might cause mild symptoms. 5% (50000 ppm) would cause confusion. I have read nothing to suggest that the problem is carbon dioxide, as air will support life with minimal ACH, rather it is bacteria and pure air quality which maintain health. Fresh air is exactly that, air irradiated with UV containing the appropriate balance of gases. European homes are mandated to have ventilation at 5000m3 per habitable room and that is not about CO2. Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Window brand recommendations 74Jul 22, 2009 3:41 pm ed @ EcoClassic I have read nothing to suggest that the problem is carbon dioxide There are ASHRAE recommendations on CO2. It is commonly used as marker of IAQ (Indoor air quality) but it is uncertain whether it is just an epiphenomenon (marker) of sick building syndrome rather than the cause of the symptoms. http://www.epa.gov/iaq/base/pdfs/base_3c2o2.pdf http://www.epa.gov/iaq/schools/tfs/guid ... ide%20(CO2) Re: Window brand recommendations 75Jul 22, 2009 5:29 pm dymonite69 ed @ EcoClassic I have read nothing to suggest that the problem is carbon dioxide There are ASHRAE recommendations on CO2. It is commonly used as marker of IAQ (Indoor air quality) but it is uncertain whether it is just an epiphenomenon (marker) of sick building syndrome rather than the cause of the symptoms. http://www.epa.gov/iaq/base/pdfs/base_3c2o2.pdf http://www.epa.gov/iaq/schools/tfs/guid ... ide%20(CO2) Another solution... "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Window brand recommendations 76Jul 29, 2009 3:35 pm we are owner building and paid a bit extra for dowel as we had them in our other house and they were good and strong. Also someone we know has jason windows and they are not to good Thank you. That is really helpful. Once we get the place done and passed for OC we can upgrade in the future once we get back on our feet and not paying mortgage and rent. 4 5713 Really tight at the top of the stairs- how to get furniture into those rooms? Study books - does anyone really use them these days? Large storage closet would be more functional. 2 6882 I do enjoy the drama:-D In his latest two videos he has started bringing security guards to site, I am waiting for the punch on to begin lol 6 45498 |