Browse Forums Bathrooms and Laundry 1 Jan 05, 2017 6:30 pm Hi all I am removing my shower tiles on the floor and one layer on the wall as I am getting water signs in the next room. Our house is about 24 years old Brick veneer with villa board in wet areas and concrete floor. Under the floor tile cement/adhesive there seems to be a soft plaster the colour of building sand can anyone explain to me what the purpose of this is because I can see there was a pool of water after several days under the tile near the drain (you can see it is still wet in the photo) and if this water can find its way down to this sandy layer I imagine it could travel through it to the edge of the shower and wet the concrete under the slate in the next room. I plan to remove the cement/adhesive and even though there is sufficient fall to the drain I thought I might plaster over the building sand layer to give a bit more fall from the wall to nothing at the drain. There seems to be plenty of how to's re using membrane and membrane cloth but I have just found clips talking of puddle flanges. should I use one of these even though I have concrete floor? Thanks in advance for any help. To err is human but to really mess things up, you need a computer. Re: What is this under shower tile adhesive? 2Jan 05, 2017 6:58 pm At the base is a sand and cement bed (or sometimes called a screed) it's normally around 30-50mm thick. They install this over the slab or the fibrous cement floor sheeting to get falls to the wastes. The best method to make sure the waterproofing is 100% would be to remove the sand and cement bed in the shower area and expose the existing slab below. If you run a diamond saw cut around the shower tray area and remove all the bed, this will give you a 30-40mm upturn around the base that you can waterproof up to. This will contain the water in the shower area better and stop the rest of the bed in the other parts of the room from getting wet as well. Once sealed a new bed would need to be installed mixing 4 parts Sydney sand to I part grey cement and re installed with correct falls. It's hard to full explain it in a post but that would be the best method. You could go for the cheaper / easier option to top the shower area with an Ardit floor leveling compound to fill the imperfections with a runny 3mm layer troweled over the top, and then waterproof over once dry. Only problem with the second method is if water gets outside of the shower area where u have re sealed and into the bed below. If that occurred and the original failure in the membrane is somewhere outside of the area you just sealed you may end up with the same problem. Did you do any flood tests to try and determine the main leaking area before you started the work? It's a Kind Regards James Mason - Our Build. www.renovationjunkies.com.au www.ourbuildhandyman.com.au Re: What is this under shower tile adhesive? 3Jan 05, 2017 9:40 pm Thanks James Mason, no I didn’t do a flood test. A year or two ago we had the slate tiles on the opposite wall to our shower showing white water stains and lifting the slate sealer. Only our daughter uses that shower as we use our ensuite. To fix this I dug out the silicone at the join of the wall and floor and replaced it. Then I cleaned the slate up and redid the slate sealer. Also I sealed the taps to the tiles with silicone. I love your advice on how to apply silicone in a bathroom. I have often wondered how they got such a good job done. It was all ok till the about 6 months ago when it started to show again so my wife would mop out the shower after it was used. It got noticeably worse when it wasn’t mopped out and someone was using a shower mat over the drain which held the water longer on the floor. Also we have a hob and shower curtain and when I removed the tiles from the hob there were plenty of cavities there which could have added to the problem. When I finish with the tilling I will get some liquid to seal the old and new grout, I read at Bunnings the primer is good for that. I take it in your first method you are saying once the screed is cut away to paint the rubberised sealer and apply cloth membrane to the wall of the cut away section then after replacing the screed waterproof it all. When the house was built the timber frame walls were above the wet area floor recess by maybe 30mm they then nailed Polyethylene dampcourse to the bottom of the frames and put grey plaster screed behind it and then on top of it to seal. I guess they did the same in the shower only I am guessing they would have mixed some sort of PVA to the sand which has given it that colour. This Polyethylene dampcourse obviously isn’t real good. Do you think the drain in the picture is ok or should I use a puddle flange? This is new to me. Thanks again To err is human but to really mess things up, you need a computer. Re: What is this under shower tile adhesive? 4Jan 06, 2017 11:33 am sandman55 Thanks James Mason, no I didn’t do a flood test. A year or two ago we had the slate tiles on the opposite wall to our shower showing white water stains and lifting the slate sealer. Only our daughter uses that shower as we use our ensuite. To fix this I dug out the silicone at the join of the wall and floor and replaced it. Then I cleaned the slate up and redid the slate sealer. Also I sealed the taps to the tiles with silicone. I love your advice on how to apply silicone in a bathroom. I have often wondered how they got such a good job done. It was all ok till the about 6 months ago when it started to show again so my wife would mop out the shower after it was used. It got noticeably worse when it wasn’t mopped out and someone was using a shower mat over the drain which held the water longer on the floor. Also we have a hob and shower curtain and when I removed the tiles from the hob there were plenty of cavities there which could have added to the problem. When I finish with the tilling I will get some liquid to seal the old and new grout, I read at Bunnings the primer is good for that. I take it in your first method you are saying once the screed is cut away to paint the rubberised sealer and apply cloth membrane to the wall of the cut away section then after replacing the screed waterproof it all. When the house was built the timber frame walls were above the wet area floor recess by maybe 30mm they then nailed Polyethylene dampcourse to the bottom of the frames and put grey plaster screed behind it and then on top of it to seal. I guess they did the same in the shower only I am guessing they would have mixed some sort of PVA to the sand which has given it that colour. This Polyethylene dampcourse obviously isn’t real good. Do you think the drain in the picture is ok or should I use a puddle flange? This is new to me. Thanks again If you have a hob right the way around that is a good thing as that will give you plenty to upturn the waterproofing to and will act as a water stop just like an angle would, so no need to remove the screed bed. Generally the puddle flang would go on the lower slab or floor below the sand and cement screed bed and then the tiler would drop in a new floor grate over it when they tile. In your situation id advise to remove the top of the existing PVC waste, unscrew the cover and then cut about 20 off the top of it (with your new multi tool ) . Then prep the floor with some pre mixed Ardit or floor leveling compound to remove any imperfections. Once dry apply the waterproofing and make sure it goes down into the PVC drain, paint a bit in around where you cut the top off the old waste. Then when you re tile you can glue in a new floor grate over the top of the new membrane. Just purchase the new floor grate first so you can measure how deep it is and you can make sure you cut enough off the top of the old PVC grate. Hope that makes sense? Kind Regards James Mason - Our Build. www.renovationjunkies.com.au www.ourbuildhandyman.com.au Re: What is this under shower tile adhesive? 5Jan 06, 2017 5:34 pm Thanks James I have read and re-read this but it has clicked you are suggesting I make a puddle flange out of my old grate with membrane and I guess membrane cloth and get a grate that has a pipe diameter as a sloppy fit in my old grate so that undertile moisture can weep between the two diametres. I'm not sure what you mean by gluing as you would want water passage between the old and new grate I guess you mean if for example it is a square grate then use tile adhesive to glue the square flange to the screed. I just measured the hole and it is about 62mm so if I get one with something like 50mm or 55mm then there would be plenty of clearance and I could probably even put some plastic spacers on it with five min araldite. Tomorrow I will go shopping to see what I can find. Thanks again you have been so helpful, you know your stuff. I am a handyman and a electrician I can work with tools and will try most things but when it is something I haven't any knowledge of a guiding hand is so helpful. Edit: I thought to stop screed and glue from blocking the gap between the to diameters I could put a little bit of tissue between the two diameters and in time it would rot away. To err is human but to really mess things up, you need a computer. Re: What is this under shower tile adhesive? 6Jan 08, 2017 6:32 pm sandman55 Thanks James I have read and re-read this but it has clicked you are suggesting I make a puddle flange out of my old grate with membrane and I guess membrane cloth and get a grate that has a pipe diameter as a sloppy fit in my old grate so that undertile moisture can weep between the two diametres. I'm not sure what you mean by gluing as you would want water passage between the old and new grate I guess you mean if for example it is a square grate then use tile adhesive to glue the square flange to the screed. I just measured the hole and it is about 62mm so if I get one with something like 50mm or 55mm then there would be plenty of clearance and I could probably even put some plastic spacers on it with five min araldite. Tomorrow I will go shopping to see what I can find. Thanks again you have been so helpful, you know your stuff. I am a handyman and a electrician I can work with tools and will try most things but when it is something I haven't any knowledge of a guiding hand is so helpful. Edit: I thought to stop screed and glue from blocking the gap between the to diameters I could put a little bit of tissue between the two diameters and in time it would rot away. Yeah spot on! Glue maybe the corners of the waste in position with a few tile spacers underneath to keep it up a little off the membrane to let the water through. No problems re the information, always happy to pass it on where I can, just hope it's helpful. Good luck! Kind Regards James Mason - Our Build. www.renovationjunkies.com.au www.ourbuildhandyman.com.au Re: What is this under shower tile adhesive? 7Jan 08, 2017 11:25 pm Thanks James that's a good Idea re the spacers. I've bought a chrome brass waste drain 50mm pipe to go into the 62mm hole I might roll 3 or 4 cigarettes out of news paper and cellotape them to the sides of the pipe to act as spacers to keep it concentric and in time they will rot away. I'm at the stage of getting some ardit floor leveller and some building sand to thicken it because it will need a little more fall. To err is human but to really mess things up, you need a computer. Re: What is this under shower tile adhesive? 8Jan 09, 2017 4:07 pm Hi James, I have found the source of the leak. I rang Dunlop for information on adding sand to their floor leveller and the lady was adamant that I not use floor leveller on screed especially if my screed is not sound and it has cracks in it which mine has from removing the tiles. After discussing it with her I decided to bite the bullet and as you first suggested cut with the diamond saw and remove the screed and start with a decent job. The way they were supposed to do my job 24 years ago was the wall frame is suspended 40mm or so above the well in the floor for the wet area and they were supposed to get the black plastic that is used on the dampcourse of bricks when they build a house I think it should be about 300mm wide and mine is about 110mm. it is nailed with clouts to the bottom of the frame and they were supposed to lift it and push the screed mix under the frame then set it down and put the screed on top of it so that it is on both sides and has a plastic barrier. Well mine is so short it is like a curtain it hangs down and touches the concrete floor and water can flow along the concrete and under it and damage the slate in the next room. I don't know if this method with the correct length plastic was their idea or was standard practice for that time. The concrete floor is left rough so that the screed can key into it and it is a bit lower under the wall frame, I don’t think it is a good bed for the membrane. I could do the screed in two lots one for a bed for the membrane and then put the screed on top of it but that would be more work so I think I will just mix a screed of 4 sand one cement and maybe investigate putting some bondcrete into it to make it a bit waterproof and then when the screed is done put the membrane on top of it and directly under the tiles like I was going to do with the old screed and it will have a nice fall 1:60 so if any water finds its way through the tiles there will be a nice slope for it to find its way to the drain. I imagine on a new house with this membrane technology they would float the concrete floor off nicely and perhaps even give it slight fall to the drain. I’m having a spell from removing the screed I’m half way through. I’m 69 and though I’m reasonably fit I don’t like working down on the floor but I am getting there. I broke a triangle out of the villa board fortunately it is on a stud so I can get a scrap and nail it on two sides and membrane with cloth over it. Cheers Sandy To err is human but to really mess things up, you need a computer. Re: What is this under shower tile adhesive? 9Jan 10, 2017 9:11 am Good on you Sandy, yeah busting out the screed really is the best way to go. Sounds like a pretty ******* installation they originally did. I'm not sure about the damp course plastic, never seen that before... If there is still a large gap under the frame would a 60*60mm plastic angle Sikaflex'd in bridge the gap better?? If you want to be really safe u can get a puddle flange in below the screed and membrane the slab and up turn on the walls, and then when you're screed goes in membrane over that as well? Anyway food for thought, good luck old timer Kind Regards James Mason - Our Build. www.renovationjunkies.com.au www.ourbuildhandyman.com.au Re: What is this under shower tile adhesive? 10Jan 10, 2017 10:26 pm Hi James that sounds like a good Idea. I haven't got a lot done today, I have been chasing around getting gear. I have decided the villaboard at the bottom has had it. I got a 75mm straight timber as a gauge under the second row of wall tiles and grooved the villaboard with a Score And Snap Knife and removed the bottom of the villaboard about 150mm which is quite brittle and was damaged and cracked. I bought a damaged sheet and some 90x35 pinus and I am in the process of screwing the pinus on edge half behind the old villa board and half for the new villaboard I will seal the join with marine sikaflex as it will have membrane and cloth over it. I have found some 75x50x1.5mm plastic angle which I will bridge the gap with (attach to frame with clouts) and flash over it with a longer villaboard down to the bottom of the angle. There is a substantial depression around the drain pipe of about 20mm which will allow for a puddle flange but I will have to fill it in with some screed and wait for it to cure, or maybe tile adhesive will cure quicker. Thanks again for your advice. Cheers Sandy To err is human but to really mess things up, you need a computer. Re: What is this under shower tile adhesive? 11Apr 30, 2017 11:05 pm Hi all it's been a while but I thought I had better report back on how I went and show some pics as it might help someone else in the same situation and I have to give a big thankyou to James Mason who helped me with along the way. The first pic shows the tiles and old screed have been removed and the damaged Villaboard. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ The next pic shows where the damaged Villaboard has been replaced and sealed with marine Sikaflex. The Villaboard has been flashed down over some plastic angle I bought from Bunnings from memory it was 75x50mm. Fortunately the floor around the drain was much lower than the rest of the floor so I was able to cut the drain pipe low enough to fit a puddle flange then I primed the lower surface with Dunlop primer and filled it with a cement and sand screed. I also leveled a couple of spots near the edges and fortunately the floor falls to the drain. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ In the next pic I have given all surfaces two coats of primer and then two coats of membrane with membrane cloth on all joins and corners. I found that buying a “Shower waterproofing kit” was cheaper than buying the products separately. In the kit you get membrane, primer, membrane cloth, a tube of silicone, and an instruction sheet. The products I used were Dunlop from Bunnings but I believe Ardit also make them as probably do other brands so shop around. I found that the joins in the Villaboard that I sealed with marine grade Sikaflex and smoothed with my finger. In some places where the groove was deep the membrane cloth didn’t go into and I later, when it was dry, had to carefully cut it out with a razorblade utility knife refill the grooves with Sikaflex and then cover with membrane and membrane cloth. I found the membrane cloth was stiffer than fibreglass cloth so a smooth surface is important. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ In the next pic I have followed the instructions on Bunnings YouTube instruction clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhLOhTlJ_Ro and put down the screed and as in the clip the next day filled in where the wood wedges were. My screed was much deeper than the one in the Bunnings clip. As you can see in the next pic I got a PVC coupling with a piece of wood dowel in as a handle for removal. This was cut to the depth of the screed at the drain and the diameter was similar to the diameter of the black pipe on the shiny grate and so that the screed hole was a little larger than the black pipe on the grate I got a piece of thin 75mm PVC down pipe and cut a split in it so that it went over the coupling and I filled the split with some duct tape. My idea of this was to have a little gap between the screed and the black pipe on the bottom of the chrome grate so that if any water seeps out of the screed it can find it’s way into the drain. I also put a very thin smear of Vaseline on the outside of the piece of down pipe and the between the piece of down pipe and the coupling. When the screed was dry because of the Vaseline I was able to grab the coupling by the dowel and it slipped out of the down pipe and with the split in the piece of down pipe I was able to collapse it in and remove it. I did find it a little difficult laying the tiles with the different levels that the the wooden wedges left because I wasn't prepared to diagonally cut my 200x200mm tiles but I managed but if I had big tiles then diagonal cutting would be the way to go. If I ever did it again with small tiles I might lay the screed as I have seen some on YouTube in one hit and not use wood wedges. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ The next pic shows the finished job. I hope this might help someone doing the same job and thanks again to James Mason for your help as this is the first time I have done this. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ To err is human but to really mess things up, you need a computer. Hi everyone, Could you help me with some advice? 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