Browse Forums Heating, Cooling & Insulation 1 Oct 20, 2015 2:01 am Hi all, Just wondering whether to put the $5,185 i've been quoted to put down anticon - insulation backed foil lining to the colourbond roof. Going Basalt colour which is dark, not as light as surfmist unfortunately. Just wondering what the majority of new home builders are doing and in particular those who rent or have investment properties, quite frankly do you find the anticon or insulation backed foil in the ceiling is a 'hidden' benefit that a tenant wouldn't even know or care about? Indirectly they may face hotter summers due to the heat transfer and therefore operational costs of cooling. But wouldn't directly realise it? Thought? Probably have to decide in the next day or too, but $5,200 is pretty steep when you're on a tight/investment property mindset. Kinda wondering if I can just get away with it from a rental return POV. As an owner occupied it's a no brainer. There's a 'chance' i could use it to live in if /when i get married etc. But it's just an 'if' like everthing.... Thoughts? Re: Colourbond Roof - Anticon insulation 2Oct 20, 2015 5:32 am You're right 5k is a lot in the investment property world. If you're not living in it, I'd do away with it. Either save the 5k or put it somewhere that is visible, eg frameless showers, stone benches etc. Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: Colourbond Roof - Anticon insulation 3Oct 20, 2015 8:44 am I've put it down on rental properties, and don't regret it. But the difference is that I was owner-building, and the cost difference was more like only $1000. $5000 is quite a lot for that: For our current house under construction by a project builder, it was only about half that to do a 300m2 roof, so it sounds like you are suffering some price-gouging. There are some real benefits it gives you as a landlord though. Tenants will still notice to some degree how quickly the house gets hot when not using air-conditioning, and comfort can be a factor in affecting how long a tenant will stay. Also, it dampens rain noise, and reducing the roof space temperatures may help the longevity of anything in the roof space. But $5000 is quite a lot, and I tend to doubt that you would get that economic return out of that investment into a rental property. Re: Colourbond Roof - Anticon insulation 4Oct 20, 2015 12:09 pm Tenants tend to value more than just comfort on hot days. Moving costs a lot of money and time. Psychology of a tenant will wholly depend on their lifestyle Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: Colourbond Roof - Anticon insulation 5Oct 20, 2015 12:18 pm Wow 1000 to put anticon in? Total floor plan size internally incl garage is 238 m2 and the roof m2 on the flat. Per floor plan quotes 282m2. I thought all builders items must be at cost add their quoted margin say 33% for my contract. So that said they're implyinf a 3k plus cost before they add on their margin? Could they have misquoted or i missed something?? My worry too was economic return. I do agree moving isn't easy, but i am unsure where the tipping point ****** in spending 5k versus return in longer run. Some sceptics reckon the push for energy efficiency and a green movement generation means in 10-15 years i could look like every other house built now without insulation and not standing out when consumers become energy running cost conscience? On the flipside ive never seen the everyday generation x or baby boomer ever look at whether a properry had anticon insulation lined to roof when buying a ppor or even renting? I could be wrong? I could match other households by placing reverse cycle air cond comfort wise? Plus fans if they arent exp to install in some rooms. Heard fans are cheap to run?? Re: Colourbond Roof - Anticon insulation 6Oct 20, 2015 12:24 pm Alternatively my basalt coloured roof and exterior paint colours i chose are as per the following pic : Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Far left large square- cloudburst, and dark feature wall is cookie jar. Bottom left small square is colourbond surfmist for garage and entrance door. Ignore the small sample on its right as it was dune i had on entrance door but changed it to all be surfmist to match garage. I also made the fascia and gutters basalt to match roof uppn advice. My colour schemes would look similar to this elevation bar i have a basalt roof and colours are diff, placement is same with my cookie jar colour being the feature front wall on right of portico. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Given this colour choice i note the bca rating is dark and solar absorption 0.69 per my basalt roof. Some alternative samples ive got: Windspray (0.58), dune (0.47), shale grey (0.43), and surfmist (0.32) do you think changinf my roof coloue to above alternatives would have much of a counter effect on heat, comfort, insulation and runninf costs for a tenant or if i ever move in? Will a drop from basalts 0.69 absorption do much? Picture below from left to right is basalt through to the surfmist in the order listed above. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Thoughts would be much aopreciated as ive delayed my post prestart for sometime. Sent through my final choices by emaik on. Friday so she hasnt gone through it but if i should change roof colour i should probably do it asap before i either peeve her off with constant changes to my 'final confirmed choices' or incur variation costs...haha Happy to take alternative colour paint suggestions that would match any change from the basalt colourbond roof to any of the others. Re: Colourbond Roof - Anticon insulation 7Oct 20, 2015 12:57 pm You may not have a choice. The National Construction Code Part 2 (which is now a free download) specifies minimum energy requirements for residential buildings. If a house has a light coloured roof (such as surfmist) the roof and ceiling insulation (depending on your climate zone) must have a combined R value of 4.1 If house has a dark coloured roof (such as dark grey ) the roof and ceiling insulation (depending on your climate zone) must have a combined R value of 5.1 Therefore more insulation is required. It is easy to reach these R values if one installs both roof and ceiling insulation but if roof insulation is not installed then the ceiling insulation would need to be increased to 5.1 (depending on your climate zone) Re: Colourbond Roof - Anticon insulation 8Oct 20, 2015 1:01 pm Im in Perth climate zone. I wasn't advised any issues but they did only mention 6 star compliance which. I assume is different to the r values. I assume by having r4 ceiling batts this makes the combined value 4, or is it not that simple sum of maths? So what should i be asking of my builder to ensure it complies. If they don't bring it up doing final drawings will it be caught out only when submitted to the relevant energy body for compliance?? Or perhaps am i best switching to one of the lighter roofs with an absorption rating below 0.60 Re: Colourbond Roof - Anticon insulation 9Oct 20, 2015 1:45 pm Perth is either Zone 4 or 5. The R values I quoted above are applicable for both climate zones. A roof with an absorption rating between 0.4 to 0.6 requires a combined insulation value of 4.6 in both zone 4 or zone 5. the Nation Construction Code allows for a dark roof provided their minimum insulation values are met. It is a legitimate solution to have a dark roof and install the increased ceiling insulation and also provide roof ventilators for the roof space if not installing roof insulation (to reduce heat build up in the roof space in summer) Re: Colourbond Roof - Anticon insulation 10Oct 20, 2015 1:53 pm What sort of rating would an absorption above 0.60 to say 0.7 require? Havinf roof ventilators sounds like it would leak heat during the winter would it not? Conversely i suppose a dark roof absorbs more heat in winter but is far more outweighed by heat absorption in summer. Are roof ventilators expensive to install? Or usually at a cost by builder to meet requirements? If i switch to a below 0.6 absorption rated colourbond, would r4.0 batts to the house and garage meet an insulation value of r4.6 generally? If not then there probably isnt a regulatory reason to change. But i assume over the darker basalt it might still make sense to make a $0 cost choice of a lighter roof to begin with? What do you think my best option or action should be while i havr a chance today to finalise my prestart lchoice? Re: Colourbond Roof - Anticon insulation 11Oct 20, 2015 2:59 pm In terms of cost, the product is available at less than $5/m2. My $1000 figure was for a 2-storey house with 150m2 roof area. A 300m2 floor area would bring it up to $1600 or so in materials after taking the roof slope into consideration. On top of this, it's a bit more work for the roofers, having to cut it and lay it all out. I think our builder is fair, charging $2500 or so all-up. I doubt they can justify $5000 in terms of their costs, but if they're providing the service, they can change what they want. Swapping the colour to surfmist will halve the thermal load on the roof, and keep the roof space cooler. That should make a bigger thermal difference than the anticon, but it also dramatically affects the aesthetics of the building. From a tenant point of view, they would probably care more about it looking the way they liked than it performing better thermally. I think that lighter colours can look good, but they are currently less popular than the dark roofs, so you'd have to be comfortable with the different colour choice. I think you could go to a dune roof without changing your colour scheme too much, but it is opening up a whole new question. Another alternative to keep the roof space cooler is to add roof ventilation. There are solar or mains powered ventilators now that work a lot better than the old whirlybirds, and will run only on hot days based on a thermostat. Ultimately, you'll already have R4 or so insulation in the ceiling, so an extra R1 to R1.5 at the roof level won't be making a huge difference to the thermal comfort, so won't be having much effect at all on the hard numerics of rental returns. A hot roof space does make ducted aircon run less efficiently, but again, that's probably not going to affect the $$$$ in rental returns anytime soon. Similarly, while a lighter roof is a good thing thermally, in the context of a rental probably isn't going to get you any better returns. It's a shame, but much of the time our current economic model doesn't reward good environmental practice. Re: Colourbond Roof - Anticon insulation 12Oct 20, 2015 4:51 pm Wow, and that is anticon not aircoil or some other brand (earthwool?) that others have mentioned to me? If so yes, $5,185 is very steep for my roof size. I assume you go by the roof flat 282m2 quoted on floor plan, as the roof laid flat would essentially be the lining m2 area in practicality? Even if i Don't go surfmist (0.32 SA) and go something like shale grey (0.43) or dune (0.47) will the difference to the basalt (0.69) be noticeable in terms of thermal load? windspray at 0.58 is also closer to the darkness of basalt but nowhere near the 'dark' shade of grey that basalt brings to the exterior unfortunately. By dramatically affecting the aesthetics I assume you don't quite take to the surfmist look. it is rather 'out there'. Perhaps easier on the eyes staying with the grey shades, albeit lighter. Re: a tenant, wouldn't one assume they'd care more about running/operational costs than what the exterior of the house looked like (unless horrible) as they're renting the space and utility/operational side inside? Fair call with the switch to dune, I would have thought maybe shale grey would have been closer to the colours i had already. The darker roof colour over the exterior paint I find works/stands out alot better than the houses I've seen with lighter shader roofs versus the colour shades on the painted elevation. By adding the roof ventilation (as the other poster above mentioned) would this not also conversely affect the insulation properties during winter though? I never got quoted on whirlybirds, I don't think it was ever mentioned. This would be something I'd have to add on myself? I actually don't know much about whirlybirds so I assume they just act as a permanent roof ventilator powered by wind externally? "Ultimately, you'll already have R4 or so insulation in the ceiling, so an extra R1 to R1.5 at the roof level won't be making a huge difference to the thermal comfort, so won't be having much effect at all on the hard numerics of rental returns. " - That said would the drop in solar absorption with the above listed colourbond alternatives over my currently chosen basalt result in an equivalent thermal comfort/gain of R1 to R1.5? Or more? Didn't know the hot roof affected ducted RC aircon. Learn something new everyday! True a light roof may affect thermally but not rental returns, but indirectly as mentioned previously the thermal comfort could potentially make a tenant feel more comfortable with their satisfaction of the place and therefore indirectly affect your financial return by lowering tenant turnover?? Re: Colourbond Roof - Anticon insulation 13Oct 20, 2015 4:52 pm How much of a pain/impossibility is it to retrofit insulation backed foil in a couple of years if we ever move in as owner occupiers and need it? Is it near impossible or way too expensive? Same for insulation in the cavity walls as I've forgone cavity insulation for my theatre facing wall as they were quoting me $1100 for it also!! Or can one take an easier retrofitting approach and bump up the insulation batts in the ceiling if adding roof lining to colourbond can't be done retrospectively? Re: Colourbond Roof - Anticon insulation 14Oct 20, 2015 8:02 pm I think you'll find it way too expensive and inconvenient to retro-fit anticon, so if you are thinking of it, do it now. As far as investment home, the tenants won't give a toss about it either way, but if you are planning on reselling it in a few years it may effect resale value (may not either!). Owner Building at Jimboomba Woods in Logan City Qld. Blog : http://bandlnewhomebuild.blogspot.com H1 thread : viewtopic.php?f=38&t=68283 . Re: Colourbond Roof - Anticon insulation 15Oct 21, 2015 11:15 am I saw an online price for Bradford Anticon at around he $5/m2 mark. In terms of dramatically affecting the aesthetics, I actually like the light roofs, and we are building with surfmist roof. I'm just recognising that it does change the look. It is less popular, and also tends to require a different approach to the rest of the colours for it to work. Retrofitting the anticon would be quite a bit of work. Getting someone to do it for you would probably cost more than what your builder is charging you to put it in at build time. People have reported having improvements from fastening foil up between trusses underneath the roof, but it would be a fiddly job. Taking the sheets off and re-installing is quite a bit of work. I don't think people use whirlybirds much on new builds anymore, due to the issues with low extraction rates, noise, and the fact that they still run in cold weather. Nowadays I think it's more fan based extraction systems that only turn on when the roof space is hot enough to warrant it. It's very hard to get figures on exactly how much thermal benefit you get from a lighter coloured roof. My feeling from what I've seen is that it's less than what you get from the anticon. One reason for that is if you take a dark roof with anticon, and touch the foil on that, I'd expect that to feel cooler than the back of a bare light coloured roof. Using light colour still has value though, as it's free, and also helps reduce UHI, keeping the whole neighbourhood a bit cooler. Overall, by the time you have R4 or so of insulation in the ceiling, there are diminishing returns in targeting the heat through the roof. By then, windows tend to be the next target of optimisation. I like anticon, and think it makes a better roof, but for thermal benefit you'd probably be better to put the $5000 into double-glazing - that's something that tenants can see as well. Re: Colourbond Roof - Anticon insulation 16Oct 21, 2015 11:30 am Wow $5 m2 for a 300m2 flat roof size house you'd still come up well below 2k for a materials. I must be getting gouged through the eyes. Unless there is varying thickness or quality of bradford anticon. If there's just the one anticon then they really are ripping into you. Can these thermostat fan based extractors be installed post handover at a decent or not much differential price than if done during build? Dont think they offer it but if it can be much easily be retrofittrd unlike anticon maybe the fan extractor would work best. I assume these dont interfere with the weatherproof sealing of colourbond as any cut into the membrane/steel is well sealed around the extractor so nothing leaks in?? I've had the mrs look at and pick alternate exterior paint colours to match alternative surf mist or shale grey colourbond if i change from the basalt i currently have. Understood that it may not match anti con, but forgoing anticon would you say thay dropping down from basalts 0.69 solar absorption level to say 0.43 with shale grey (surfmist is lowest at 0.32) would be worth the sacrifice? Mrs reckons she'd still go for looks and make do with comfort and insulation for the sake of having the nicer looking dark basalt. Do you all think the solar absorption diff would indirectly be paid back in lower energy/operational costs going the lighter roofs? I assume rental tenants wont care about a lighter roof looking not as nice? has anyone heard of tenants looking negatively towards dark roof or positively to lighter roofs in terms of heat and insulation during summer?? Or is there any resale value in a lighter, less solar absorption roof? Or do you think looks is still king and you'd likely extract more of a better price for appealing to the eye than people thinking two steps ahead about heat from a darker roof over lighter when purchasing? Need to respond by this lunch time with colour choice... Torn as i love the dark roof basalt colour but just havent owned a home with a dark roof and no anticon to know how bad it is! As yousaid onejohn perhaps the r4 batts in ceiling will do a decent job too at a minimim? Re: Colourbond Roof - Anticon insulation 17Oct 21, 2015 12:53 pm SaberX Re: a tenant, wouldn't one assume they'd care more about running/operational costs than what the exterior of the house looked like (unless horrible) as they're renting the space and utility/operational side inside? Fair call with the switch to dune, I would have thought maybe shale grey would have been closer to the colours i had already. The darker roof colour over the exterior paint I find works/stands out alot better than the houses I've seen with lighter shader roofs versus the colour shades on the painted elevation. Re the tenant: Things that are important to a tenant are location, price, amenities, home layout, inclusions (eg fully appointed kitchen, outdoor entertaining area, alarm, aircon etc), low maintenance yard. Tenants could care less about whether their yearly powerbill is 100 dollars more or even 300 dollars more. Tenants can always look at saving money on utilities by shopping around. Even as electricity cost rises, its getting to a point were self regulation of the industry is currently being questioned. These prices will likely plateux before a tenant starts worrying about the thermal efficiency of a home they are moving into. They're already getting a better product moving into a new home rather than a 50's fibro shack, or even an 80's brick veneer. Stop thinking about the tenant, and start thinking about your return on investment. Depending on rental vacancies in your location, its not even going to be a selling point. To give you some perspective, I was a long term tenant of a large townhouse in a great area. I stayed there for 9 years because the price didnt go up in the same vicinity as our neighbors. The rest of the house could have done with heaps of work, but price to value ratio was excellent. Moving from there would have cost 700 in moving costs, time off work, saving another bond and first months rent etc. Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: Colourbond Roof - Anticon insulation 18Oct 21, 2015 12:54 pm I wouldn't stress too much about it. With your ceiling insulation in, the thermal behaviour difference of the dark roof isn't all that much. You can get the roof vents added later with no extra hassle. As far as tenants go, probably none of these considerations would make any real difference. At the moment I doubt there's any resale benefit to a light roof. It may be worth less, as darker colours are more popular. That may change with time, and light may get more popular - or it may not as well. For the moment you're probably better off going with colours that you're comfortable with, rather than rushing out trying to fix something that isn't a problem. Re: Colourbond Roof - Anticon insulation 19Oct 21, 2015 4:24 pm @ponzu: good points. I am focused on my return on investment but it is exactly on that point that i was querying perhaps whether one would achieve a greater return on a darker, nicer lookinf roof (aesthetics) versus a lighter roof and the potential for greenie movements in 15 years time who are alot.more energy and environment conscious. Perhps then they will value a lighter colour roof for the lower electricity costs of keeping things cool versus a darker roof. Perhaps not like you said. Atm i believe most older folks dont contemplate thermal qualities of coloured roofs or if there's anticon under the hood. @onejohn good points.... May i pose one question though: is there any sufficient evidence or fact to the claim that anticon or even bradcons alternative products such as their thermoseal sarking product provide a financial return via preventing moisture damage. Or is that card overplayed and not a huge issue (condensation prevention by adding sarking or roof insulation. Maintenance reduction or severe structural damage prevention from moisture in ceiling)? Would've thought these werent issues as colourbond meant to be sealed tight from outside moisture over traditional tiles? Re: Colourbond Roof - Anticon insulation 20Oct 22, 2015 3:40 pm Does the addition of roof vents after handover also extend to whirlybirds or any other fan forced vents? THey can be easily retrofitted after the build is handed over? Rather than having to get these roof ventilation options added in during construction? I've been pouring over the basalt colour bond roofs vs the shale grey and am still pretty torn on choosing a colour. Somehow I can see why buying existing makes the option so much easier (what you see is what you get!) and you're not fussed trying to get every single thing(colour) right. Cheers. The painted render is a bit chalky to the touch. To prepare the surface for best adhesion, what would you recommend? Also, given that there must be some… 6 8515 Yes i guess this is one of the main reason as i checked one post foundation 4 9997 Hey guys building a new place through a volume builder and just wondering if i should complain to the site supervisor as we just had plasterboard installed. Looks like… 0 11279 |