Browse Forums Heating, Cooling & Insulation 1 Oct 09, 2010 9:07 pm My wife and I have just signed preliminary paperwork to get a Milano 30 built and we're onto the next point of discussion (or bone of contention), heating and cooling. The house will be sited in such a way that the main windowed areas of the house will be situated as follows: - the open plan living/dining area (large window and sliding door to alfresco) and one external wall of the Rumpus room will be roughly facing NNW - the other external wall of the rumpus room and one bedroom will be facing WSW - two more bedrooms, main bathroom, study and laundry facing SSE - entry and main bedroom (large front window) facing ENE (floorplan can be viewed here: http://www.metricon.com.au/nsw/homes/milano/floor-plans/30 - standard extra option for side outdoor room chosen) The house will have eaves all around, draft seals to all external doors and will (obviously) be fully insulated/wrapped as per current government regulations for new house energy efficiency (it is also built on a slab so ducting will have to be in the roof I guess). There is a total of 227.32 square metres (of internal living space) and we're already planning to get ceiling fans installed to all bedrooms and the living/dining/rumpus areas. A standard inclusion in the house is 3-star GDH, but we've pretty much decided that we're going to get rid of that in favour of an integrated multi-zone ducted heating/cooling system of some description (the standard electrical plan calls for 12 heating ducts and we'd be happy sticking with that at most). The goal with whichever cooling system we go for would be to have one that is effective in extreme conditions - we would be using the ceiling fans as much as possible for moderate weather conditions - and relatively cost effective (we'd also favour gas heating if at all possible). The Brivis option of having GDH with a refrigerated cooling add-on seems like an attractive option given that we can have the larger ducting required built in right from the start (and we'd have the option of having the cooling add-on installed later if the budget starts getting a little tight around settlement time), but after having read many forum posts both here and on websites such as whirlpool I'm rather confused now as to which sort of setup may be the best option to consider going for. I'm looking for any tips people might have for setups they have encountered/used for houses of a similar size, as well as an idea of how much we might be expecting to pay for a suitable ducted heating/cooling solution for the house (installed). From what I've been able to gather so far it might be difficult getting permission to have an external contractor (not associated with the builder) access the site for the purposes of installing the ducted system during construction, so we're considering the possibility of having any necessary provisions (power, roof frame reinforcement, etc) built in and then getting another firm to install the ducted system in for us after handover. Any and all advice would be very much appreciated at this point - possible setups that will be effective, brands we should consider, possible cost of said setups (installed), potential zoning configurations we should consider, pretty much anything and everything I might be able to glean from other's experiences. Some people apparently have nothing better to do than comment on other people's sigs. Re: Advice needed for new ducted heating/cooling solution. 2Nov 13, 2010 8:53 am Anyone got any advice here? Things are starting to move along with our electrical appointment in January 2011 and we're at the stage where we need to figure out what can and can't fit into the budget. ANy thoughts would be appreciated. Some people apparently have nothing better to do than comment on other people's sigs. Re: Advice needed for new ducted heating/cooling solution. 3Nov 13, 2010 9:42 am Hi cmhamilton. Welcome to the forum. We have a similar sized home (200 square meters of living space) and have Brivis heating (gas) with Brivis ad-on refrigerated air conditioning, installed as part of our building contract. Ductwork, heating unit, vents are in the roof/ceiling. The condenser is outside bolted to rear of the house. We did upgrade to a more powerful model (17.1kW) than the builder had suggested for this size home, after getting comparison quotes to install after handover. It cost quite a bit more installing it through the builder, but far less hassle. So glad we did. So far we’re pretty happy with it. We haven’t used the air conditioning yet, only tested it. We have 12 outlets and 3 zones. Zone 1 Master and Ensuite, Zone 2 Bedrooms 2, 3 and 4 plus main bathroom, Zone 3 all open plan living areas (rumpus, study, kitchen, dining living, hall).We paid extra to have a second thermostat/control in our main bedroom. We have found that our single storey 5 star energy rated home maintains a fairly constant and comfortable temperature with all the insulation provided. Consequently we’ve used our heating far less than we did in our previous rental. Will be interesting to see how Summer pans out. Oh, one other thing to mention is that our Brivis system has a ‘fan’ function that just circulates air within the house. Hope this info helps. Good luck with your research and decision making! Re: Advice needed for new ducted heating/cooling solution. 4Dec 14, 2010 3:00 pm CMHamilton, interested to know what you have decided on - we too are building the Milano 30 & would much prefer an integrated GDH/Cooling unit. We will be having our electrical appointment in Feb. Building the Milano30 Site start: 30th June 2011 PCI: 1st December 2011 Handover: As soon as the bank pays! Approx 16th December viewtopic.php?f=31&t=44051 Re: Advice needed for new ducted heating/cooling solution. 6Dec 25, 2010 7:23 am Gas ducted heating is far more efficient, much cheaper to run and has better heating properties than reverse cycle. It's a deeper more resonate heat compared to Rc heating. I'm a refrigeration mechanic and I am putting GDH in my new home. Re: Advice needed for new ducted heating/cooling solution. 7Jan 07, 2011 8:57 pm , cmhamilton so we're considering the possibility of having any necessary provisions (power, roof frame reinforcement, etc) built in and then getting another firm to install the ducted system in for us after handover. No roof frame reinforcement should be required regardless of what system you decide on. Most builders in my experience will give you the basics and you could probably negotiate a better price from a dealer / contractor getting exactly what you want. Often component manufacturers (ducting / grilles etc) have a "builders" range which in effect is cheaper as this line of business is VERY competitive. No harm in having them connect the power where necessary - do you have 3 phase power being connected? The reason I ask is that the add-on cooling may require 3 phase depending on how you have/want your system zoned and subsequent system required. There are a myriad of options out there...any questions, feel free to ask FYI I'd say $10-15k but the ultimate question I ask is...How much of the house do you want to condition at any one time (This determines the unit size and ultimately price) Do you have kids and will you want to cool/heat their rooms whilst you are using the living areas? Each system (I believe) should be designed individually You get what you pay for! Re: Advice needed for new ducted heating/cooling solution. 8Feb 12, 2011 11:36 pm MagicMuppetMan No roof frame reinforcement should be required regardless of what system you decide on. Most builders in my experience will give you the basics and you could probably negotiate a better price from a dealer / contractor getting exactly what you want. Often component manufacturers (ducting / grilles etc) have a "builders" range which in effect is cheaper as this line of business is VERY competitive. We have indeed decided to go the dealer / contractor route as our electrical consultant was surprisingly honest and told us that for any "non-standard" installation we'd be getting fleeced if we included it in our build contract so we'd be better off getting it done after handover. MagicMuppetMan No harm in having them connect the power where necessary - do you have 3 phase power being connected? The reason I ask is that the add-on cooling may require 3 phase depending on how you have/want your system zoned and subsequent system required. Yes we're having 3-phase power being connected - pretty much a requirement if you're going to get refrigerated cooling for a reasonably-sized home from what I've gathered. MagicMuppetMan There are a myriad of options out there...any questions, feel free to ask FYI I'd say $10-15k but the ultimate question I ask is...How much of the house do you want to condition at any one time (This determines the unit size and ultimately price) Do you have kids and will you want to cool/heat their rooms whilst you are using the living areas? Each system (I believe) should be designed individually We like the idea of a Brivis Star Pro GDH system with an ICE refrigerated cooling add-on because it gives us the option of havng the heating and cooling installed separately (if the budget is a little tight) while still using the same ducting from what I gather. Thanks for the reply - the heating and cooling arrangements have been put off a bit I guess due to the delays in getting out land titled due to the recent rain we've been getting (we're hoping for a handover sometime towards th end of Q1, 2010 now) but it's good to get some advice in preparation for that time anyway. Some people apparently have nothing better to do than comment on other people's sigs. Re: Advice needed for new ducted heating/cooling solution. 9Feb 12, 2011 11:41 pm morox CMHamilton, interested to know what you have decided on - we too are building the Milano 30 & would much prefer an integrated GDH/Cooling unit. We will be having our electrical appointment in Feb. We were told by our CSM that they couldn't give us what we were after and our electrical consultant told us we'd be better off getting it done after handover anyway as we'd get it done a lot cheaper by a dealer/contractor than we would if it was included in the build contract due to the builder markup and them not really doing any special deals on anything ever. As our land titles have been delayed we're putting this of a bit, but I think I (we) are pretty much set on the Brivis system due to being able to install the heating and cooling components separately if the budget is a little tight whilst only needing the one set of ducting/vents(?) - albeit upgraded ducting which you have to pay a bit more for. Some people apparently have nothing better to do than comment on other people's sigs. Re: Advice needed for new ducted heating/cooling solution. 10Feb 13, 2011 12:00 am malbaby Hi, May I ask why you chose to go GDH with add on cooling in preference to a reverse cycle system. We are currently facing this dilemma. Refrigerated cooling is going to cost you no matter what sort of unit it is (you can mitigate the expense to some degree with other methods of controlling comfort levels within the home such as ceiling sweep fans/good insulation to help when the weather is not overbearingly hot). GDH is far more efficient and from what I've gathered gives a more "even" heat compared to reverse cycle air-con - if we can avoid heating with electricity then we will do it (for the same reason we're going with solar-boosted GHW). The reasons for homing in on the Brivis Star Pro GDH system with an ICE refrigerated cooling add-on were A) only needing the one set of ducting (and possibly vents - no sure about that though) and B) the cooling add-on can be installed at a later date which gives us bit more flexibility in term of budget (once we get the keys and only have to service the loan we'll be able to save again because we wont be doubling up on rent payments as well). Our basic plan (we anticipate handover some time around March 2012 now - fingers crossed on that one) is to have ceiling sweep fans installed pretty much everywhere right after we get the keys (we'll be buying the fans in bulk and organising for their installation before we actually move in so that it gets done straight away), then have the GDH system installed in the 1-2 months after we move in before winter sets in (we'll definitely have the money for that) and then have the ICE cooling add-on installed at most 5-6 months later before summer really starts to kick in... This might mean having to tough it out with ceiling fans and the trusty old portable evaporative coolers we're using now for the last bit of summer when we move in, but we can live with that if needs be. Some people apparently have nothing better to do than comment on other people's sigs. Re: Advice needed for new ducted heating/cooling solution. 11Feb 13, 2011 6:36 am I would get the builder to install the ducts during the build -it will be much easier and cleaner. The ducts will have to be bigger than standard heating ducts if they are going to be used for cooling. The Harder You Try - the Luckier You Get ! Web site http://www.anewhouse.com.au Informative, Amusing, and Opinionated Blog - Over 600 posts on all aspects of building a new house. Re: Advice needed for new ducted heating/cooling solution. 12Feb 13, 2011 8:38 am Agree with bashworth. Get the builders contractor to size the duct work for add-on later, although if that was your intention, they should already factor that. You get what you pay for! Re: Advice needed for new ducted heating/cooling solution. 13Feb 13, 2011 9:14 am @bashworth What issues are there with having the ducting installed when the GDH unit is installed - I know they will be messing around in the roof and cutting holes in the ceiling, but is it really that much of a hassle or are there other issues we need to be aware of if we get it done post-handover. Oh and I am aware that we'll need bigger and better insulated ducting for a dual purpose (heating and cooling) ducted system - I'm not even sure if the builder will do that for us given their seeming reluctance when it comes to installing a solution that wasn't in their bog-standard Bonaire GDH/evap cooling range. Given that we have already signed contracts I am sure they will slap their 10-20% markup on materials and slug us for labour/variation penalty charges if it is possible for them to do it (we would be looking for a markedly different configuration compared to their standard ducting layout so that's probably even more expense), so would it be worth the cost at this point? Some people apparently have nothing better to do than comment on other people's sigs. Re: Advice needed for new ducted heating/cooling solution. 14Feb 22, 2011 9:33 pm cmhamilton malbaby Hi, May I ask why you chose to go GDH with add on cooling in preference to a reverse cycle system. We are currently facing this dilemma. Refrigerated cooling is going to cost you no matter what sort of unit it is (you can mitigate the expense to some degree with other methods of controlling comfort levels within the home such as ceiling sweep fans/good insulation to help when the weather is not overbearingly hot). GDH is far more efficient and from what I've gathered gives a more "even" heat compared to reverse cycle air-con - if we can avoid heating with electricity then we will do it (for the same reason we're going with solar-boosted GHW). The reasons for homing in on the Brivis Star Pro GDH system with an ICE refrigerated cooling add-on were A) only needing the one set of ducting (and possibly vents - no sure about that though) and B) the cooling add-on can be installed at a later date which gives us bit more flexibility in term of budget (once we get the keys and only have to service the loan we'll be able to save again because we wont be doubling up on rent payments as well). Our basic plan (we anticipate handover some time around March 2012 now - fingers crossed on that one) is to have ceiling sweep fans installed pretty much everywhere right after we get the keys (we'll be buying the fans in bulk and organising for their installation before we actually move in so that it gets done straight away), then have the GDH system installed in the 1-2 months after we move in before winter sets in (we'll definitely have the money for that) and then have the ICE cooling add-on installed at most 5-6 months later before summer really starts to kick in... This might mean having to tough it out with ceiling fans and the trusty old portable evaporative coolers we're using now for the last bit of summer when we move in, but we can live with that if needs be. We are in the similar quandary as well. We will be soon building with custom builder in victoria, and he has 5 star energy rated gas ducted heating as part of package. How extra $$ are we expected to fork out to builder to make the duct compatible for future refrigerated cooling installation. We are thinking about getting refrigerated cooling installed in few months time after handover if it is economically feasible. That leads to my 2nd question how will it cost to add the add on cooling(refrigerted of course), if we have had compatible duct already installed during building phase. ashrey|^| Re: Advice needed for new ducted heating/cooling solution. 15Feb 23, 2011 9:58 pm Seems like a lot of people are in the same boat in trying to decide the best way to do the add on cooling with Brivis. I asked my custom builder about the possibility of installing it later on, because the house will be finished in winter, and I won't need the cooling for another potential 6mths. His suggestion was to make up my mind now, and get the rough in done during the building stage. Reason being, that for refregierated cooling, the piping needs to go through the walls, and if it does not exist, then it will have to go on the outside of the house walls, and it looks damn ugly. Rough in cost was half the total cost of the quote. These guys are good and straight up, so I am taking what they are saying at face value. I can get whatever system I want through their installer, just need to let the installer know. But am still debating on the extra cost for referigerated cooling versus evap cooling, ~3K extra. Regards, K. Re: Advice needed for new ducted heating/cooling solution. 16Feb 24, 2011 11:06 pm You are going to live with these choices for years - when your house is due to be finished is irrelevant unless your budget specifically prohibits add-on cooling (plant) during construction - the duct upgrade costs SFA and make your builder include it regardless You get what you pay for! Re: Advice needed for new ducted heating/cooling solution. 17Feb 25, 2011 6:37 am MagicMuppetMan You are going to live with these choices for years - when your house is due to be finished is irrelevant unless your budget specifically prohibits add-on cooling (plant) during construction - the duct upgrade costs SFA and make your builder include it regardless SFA ??? ashrey|^| Re: Advice needed for new ducted heating/cooling solution. 18Feb 25, 2011 12:45 pm ashrey MagicMuppetMan You are going to live with these choices for years - when your house is due to be finished is irrelevant unless your budget specifically prohibits add-on cooling (plant) during construction - the duct upgrade costs SFA and make your builder include it regardless SFA ??? Sweet F... All At least that's my best guess. Thread: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=52680 SiteStart 19/11/11 Slab 10/12/11 Frame 17/02/12 Roof 3/05/12 LockUp 22/06/12 Handover 31/08/12 Hi We are building in the Hunter Valley, our soil test is H1, our builder has advised us they need to have a letter signed for Fair Trading as the new drainage standard… 0 3528 Sorry! I'm new to this forum and have made a mistake in my posting! I'm looking for a structural solution to a stand alone wooden pickets fence with no structural rail… 1 3243 Hi All, I engaged a tradie to install concrete retaining wall 600-800mm high over 32 meters in Victoria. Sleepers are 200*75*2000 mm installed over 17 steel posts. I… 0 6830 |