Browse Forums Heating, Cooling & Insulation 1 Oct 15, 2007 9:48 pm 2 years ago I bought an approx 50 year old 3 bedroom house which has loose-fill blown-in fibreglass insulation in the ceiling. I don't know how long the insulation has been there for, but in some sections it has compacted down so much it's not doing it's job effectively (from what I've been reading on the net). The roof is made of ceramic tiles and there is no sarking under the tiles either.
The house has an old ducted 3 phase 3.75HP A/C, which in hot 45 degree days outside in summer, was struggling to maintain a reasonably comfortable temperature inside the house. If I wait until I get home from work in the afternoon before I turn it on, it can be over 35 degrees inside the house, and not get below that until after 10pm. Even if I turn it on before I go to work, it doesn't actually kick in until about 10 or 11am (when the temperature rises to the thermostat setting of say 28 degrees), and the temperature continues to climb up as it can't cool as fast as the house is heating. There is also no insulation in the horse-hair gyprock (internal) walls which are aluminium clad (originally fibro, which is still behind the cladding). At the start of last winter I was contemplating installing new R3 (or better) pink batts to replace the old loose-fill insulation, or at the very least, pile up the old insulation into some sections of the ceiling and install the new pink batts in other areas (to save costs on insulation). I also tried to research sarking on the net, and have discovered there are two types - one with fibreglass backing and one without, with it's main purpose to be waterproofing. The questions I have are: 1. Is it possible or suitable to install the sarking with the fibreglass backing into an existing tiled roof without having to remove all the tiles to do it - ie: can it be installed effectively on the underside of the rafters (not directly under the tiles or battens as is the usual location)? 2. Would this method (sarking) be of any use to help keep radiated heat out of the roof space (radiated from the tiles)? I have seen the sarking installed in other houses and know the sarking is installed with the silver side facing down, and there needs to be a gap around it. Would that gap be too big if I was to install the sarking underneath the rafters (to avoid lifting all the tiles)? 3. Am I wasting my time and money even bothering with any of this if there is no insulation in the walls? 4. Is my old A/C not up to the task? When I first bought the house, someone told me the A/C is very oversized for the size of the house (it does look like an industrial-sized one). It has two large cooling fans on it (facing upwards) and two large radiators (one on each long side). The radiators get almost too hot to touch on a hot day (however they cool down rapidly after a quick spray of water from the hose, but I wouldn't be able to do that all day every day throughout summer!). I haven't been able to measure if there is any drop in vent/outlet temperature by spraying the radiators with the hose, and how long it changes for (if at all). I've looked at a few different diagrams on the net of how/where the sarking is to be installed but it still looks confusing... Now that summer is upon us, I wanted to get this sorted out ASAP (while there's still some cool(er) days left to get into the ceiling space to install it!). I feel that in the end, the $500-odd spent on pink batts is going to pay for itself in a few years of cheaper electricity bills due to the A/C not having to run as long. I guess I want to know if putting in sarking is going to be similarly cost-effective, or if it's not worth going to the additional expense and time of installing it. Re: DIY - renewing ceiling insulation and adding sarking 2Oct 15, 2007 9:57 pm My aircon installer told me batts save a fair bit of money over the year if you have them!
Not sure about the sarking…..but Batts are good! Watch those low Hals though…… Internal and External Building and Colour Consultant Online - Worldwide http://www.denovoconcepts.com Re: DIY - renewing ceiling insulation and adding sarking 3Oct 15, 2007 10:15 pm Inspector
Having installed an been in many roofs for various reasons here's my advice. YES YES YES. The key thing with any / all insulation is total coverage. Think - of a wearing a jumper - if you're cold the hot air gets out around you neck or around you belt - so close thes egaps and the umper works so much better. Same in a house. If the old ceiling insul is cactus - leave it here - and put some new stuff over the top. If you have the dollars, also put some sarkign with insul on it under your rafters to give you extra - solar heat protection. It will make a heck of a difference and the house will be a whole lot cooler. Just like electrical insulation on the wires - the better it is - the less electricity can be transmitted to the other side. But one little gap - even of 30cm squares -can degrade it's performance immensly. Be it thermal, electrical or acoustic. Steve Re: DIY - renewing ceiling insulation and adding sarking 4Oct 17, 2007 5:48 pm Thanks for your replies so far.
I spoke to a mate that put insulation in his place a few years ago and he recommended against putting the sarking insulation in as it does in fact go below the tiles and would require the removal of them to be done properly, or it may be possible to install them under the rafters, but the problem is if staples or nails are used, if they get wet then they will fall off due to the weight of the water. Another option would be to put up another lot of battens underneath them (and nail the battens to the underside of the rafters) but that is alot of work to do in a small space (keeping in mind the old (unused) hot water tank and all the A/C ducting and A/C fan unit in the roof space already making it awkward to move around). I popped into local hardware store on the way home to price insulation batts and I wasn't aware there are two widths, so I need to pop into my roof space and do a quick measure before I can get a price. I also read in the manufacturer brochure that they recommend additional thickness in the ceiling if there is no insulation in the walls. I was thinking of going the "standard" R3.5 but if I put it on top of the loose-fill that is already in the roof space (instead of moving all the old stuff to one section)then that would effectively increase the rating abit anyway... I also read a short article in last week's local paper that the govt has introduced a rebate up to $300 for insulation. I will do a search on the net for any more info on it. Just thought I'd mention it in case anyone else is looking at getting insulation that they may also be eligible for the rebate too... Re: DIY - renewing ceiling insulation and adding sarking 5Oct 17, 2007 9:26 pm Inspector.
If your roof is like that - you'd be better off to go with cellulouse fibre - which is blow in and loose fill and ideal for an existing roof with old glass in it. Thats what my dads business sold for 12 years before he retired. Cost will be the same, difficult to do yourself, because it needs to be aerated as it gets blown in - and check who isinstalling it - some of the current suppliers have been known to be rouges and over arearate it, and do not fill to the corners. But if you find a good one who does quality work - that will be a very cost effective and workable solution for you. and hey - some other mug (like me when I as at school) gets to crawl around in your ceiling. Steve Re: DIY - renewing ceiling insulation and adding sarking 6Oct 17, 2007 11:40 pm I'll look into the loose-fill "top-up" option you've recommended. The concerns I have with that method are: 1. I would assume existing insulation would have lost all it's fire-rating. Especially as it wowuld've been covered with layers of dust, debris, leaves etc over the many years it has been there. 2. Are the blow-in installers fully aware of the requirements of maintaining adequate distance from downlights, wiring, etc which is expected to be present in a roof space? How do they ensure their new insulation isn't going to be blown all over the existing downlights and wiring - would they give a written guarantee it's been installed as per Australian Standards so I'm covered if there's a fire caused by their workmanship (or lack of)? 3. I find it hard to believe it would cost the same as batts - 9sqm of R3.0 costs about $45, total about $590 for the roof space I need to cover (approx 95sqm). I'd hate to think what the labour costs of installing *any* insulation would be. Do they jack the labour charge up for summer when it's 50+ degrees in the roof? ![]() Re: DIY - renewing ceiling insulation and adding sarking 7Oct 18, 2007 12:23 am re you questions of safety - ask them.
He used to make and install a 4 inch high metal rim to go around teh downlights - and as for the exisiting - burning - hmm - ask them that one. It comes down to the quality of workmanship - my dads business was just him and 1 other so he could control his quality of work. re the jacking up of costs - maybe some do - but he used to just ask to get access before sunrise (hey it's dark up there anyway) so we could be out of there before 9am. It's made out of recycled newspaper - plus a few fire retardant non toxic chemicals so his installed cost used to be the same as buying batts from the shop - then installing them yourself. But prices have changed - check it out. Removing old glass is a Pr***** of a job let alone the dust that it creates. Steve Re: DIY - renewing ceiling insulation and adding sarking 8Oct 18, 2007 7:29 am re: removing old insulation - I have seen a vehicle driving around once that was advertising vacuuming of old insulation from roofs. I wrote down their details - I'll have to look and see if I still have it somewhere (or just search the net). Re: DIY - renewing ceiling insulation and adding sarking 9Oct 18, 2007 12:53 pm Consider upgrading your old AC unit, the new ones are considerably more efficient so you will get more cooling for less $$s.
Also consider putting in a roof airvent (one of the round spinny things) to let excess heat out of your roof space. You may also consider putting bats between the sisilation and the roof tiles? Should provide some insulation before the heat gets into the roof space. Use brass staples if you are worried about staples rusting. Good luck Re: DIY - renewing ceiling insulation and adding sarking 10Oct 18, 2007 1:28 pm If you can, get someone else to clean out the old insulation. Or wear a good quality mask and prepare to get VERY HOT!!
You can install the batts easily yourself. The polyester ones are fairly easy to do, they rip across easily, but take a knife to cut them length ways. The hard part is getting them into the roof in the first place. You will probably have to lift some tiles, cut a batten and put the bags into the roof space. Or load them one by one through your manhole cos you won't be able to get a full bag through the hole. Then crawl around on your knees for a couple of hours, and again, sweat your a** off. Or pay someone else money to do exactly the same thing but probably not do it as carefully as it is your house, not theirs. Have fun ![]() Re: DIY - renewing ceiling insulation and adding sarking 11Oct 18, 2007 5:52 pm ![]() Consider upgrading your old AC unit, the new ones are considerably more efficient so you will get more cooling for less $$s. I'm trying to do this with as minimal outlay as possible. But I hadn't thought of upgrading the A/C. I know split systems are available with inverters for cheaper running, but not sure if I can get an inverter in a ducted system. Last year I'd already considered upgrading the temperature sensor/controller as it's the old Email round knob with heat/cool switch, and not programmable like modern controllers are. Quote: Also consider putting in a roof airvent (one of the round spinny things) to let excess heat out of your roof space. I was going to mention that but didn't want to get too off-topic. I expected lots of responses by mentioning it as I have heard so many conflicting stories about those devices, which is also one reason why I didn't consider them. Quote: You may also consider putting bats between the sisilation and the roof tiles? Should provide some insulation before the heat gets into the roof space. There isn't any sisalation installed. That's why I mentioned the sarking. (Assuming they're one and the same) 3 2947 I have a roof that is tiled but has no sarking installed, is there any way for me to add sarking for moisture and heat management without taking off all the tiles and… 0 3757 Old Home Restoration / Renovation i wish i could point to something smart you've said. Go figure indeed. HTH 14 6503 |