Browse Forums Heating, Cooling & Insulation 1 Oct 04, 2007 11:16 pm We have just met with our hydronic heating/cooling guy with the builder and have agreed to this system in favour of our traditional a/c and gas heater.
Was a bit surprised to learn that the solar powered system with a heat pump backup will not attract any fed or state rebates. Not sure why I am so surprised when the Feds just gave the green light to the pulp mill in Tassie. Our new system will cost approx. 22,000 which is about 3,000 more than traditional reverse cycle aircon + gas heater + solar h/w. We are completely rapt that we are going this way and would encourage others to try the hydronic systems as opposed to r/c aircon. We are going to apply a polished concrete finish for the lower level to enhance the effects of the hydronic heating/cooling. It felt great to have the greenhouse people and our traditional builder working hand in hand to create a better outcome for all. We are most surprised that our builder has embraced this system wholeheartedly especially when we are one of the first in the state to utilize both systems in a residential setting. Any enquiries and comments welcome. Cheers Dy & Michael Re: Hydronic heating and cooling 2Oct 04, 2007 11:21 pm DeeElle,
I would certainly like to hear more about your system. Solar powered and polished concrete are two things I'm also considering. Who is the supplier and do they have a website? Cheers, Casa Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Re: Hydronic heating and cooling 3Oct 04, 2007 11:54 pm Hi Casa
The system consists of Rehau hydronic piping through the slab and Apricus solar panel with a heat pump backup (2 storage tanks: 1 hot and 1 cold) and several heat exchange units for cooling (5) throughout the house. The cooling units are in the ceiling and the builder will allow for the space (approx. 450 mm x 300 mm x 300mm) in the ceiling. The cooling units consist of a fan and copper heat exchange piping that cool the air in the room. The water temp is estimated to be as low as 7 degrees; enough to cool a room in the heat of Adelaide summer to approx. 15 degrees C (in theory !!!) Each room will have its own thermostat which can be individually controlled. We are developing our blog and will post pictures as we go along. Slab to go down in a few weeks time. In summer the cold water will also pass through the slab which is why we are not putting down any floor coverings on the lower level. The heat pump will act as a backup for the solar h/w in winter, and provide the cool water for hydronic cooling in summer. When the heat pump is cooling water in summer, the h/w bi-product will be used for domestic h/w. This will be the second house they have installed this system into in Adelaide ... our builder is supporting the endeavour which makes us feel a bit more comfortable ... although still feeling a bit like lab rats at the moment. The builder assures us that he will provide us with oscillating fans if the system breaks down. We are using 32mpa off white cement with white quartz for a modern look and have contracted a flooring specialist for $65.00 per sqm to hone and polish the lower level including our main br. will keep you posted as we are still to set eyes on the cooling units. The company is called Ecologics. Re: Hydronic heating and cooling 4Oct 05, 2007 8:29 am DeeElle,
Your system sounds great. There are several things I like about it and I see no reason why it won't work well. From what I understand, your system consists of: 1) Solar panels (Apricus) 2) A heat pump (backup system) 3) Two storage tanks (hot + cold) 4) In-slab hydronic piping 5) Heat exchange units for cooling (5 throughout house) The heat exchange units have got me confused. It appears the in-slab hydronic piping provides both the heating and cooling of the house and don’t see how the heat exchange units fit in. They could be used for air exchange? There's also mention of the cooling unit. Is this just another term for something already mentioned? From what I've heard, this system is nothing short of great. I'm going to visit some websites (Ecologics, Rehau and Apricus). Keep in touch, the system sounds perfect for my design. Cheers, Casa Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Re: Hydronic heating and cooling 5Oct 05, 2007 9:52 pm Casa2 The heat exchange units have got me confused. It appears the in-slab hydronic piping provides both the heating and cooling of the house and don’t see how the heat exchange units fit in. They could be used for air exchange? There's also mention of the cooling unit. Is this just another term for something already mentioned? From what I've heard, this system is nothing short of great. Hi Casa The in-slab piping provides both heating and cooling. The heat exchange units are fitted into the ceiling. This is for extra hot days when the underfloor cooling is not enuf to cool the house; especially the second story which takes a high heat load due to our less than perfect site orientation. Not sure if cold water through the slab will be enuf to cool the house particularly upstairs so each room will have its own thermostatically controlled heat exchange unit in the ceiling which will blow cold air into the room. We understand many commercial properties have used this type of system (just not in residential applications). The manifold will fit into a small cupboard upstairs. IN winter the heat exchange unit will also be able to blow warm air into the house however we will not need this with the underfloor system (we hope). IN summer when the heat pump is being used to cool the water, the biproduct of this process will give us low cost hot water. Yes the cooling units are the same as the heat exchange units - sorry for the confusion. I hope we have answered your questions. We hope to be able to post our plan soon but it is currently in pdf format and I can't work out how to post it yet. BTW we are the same as Beetle. The nickname annoyed the other half!! Cheers. Re: Hydronic heating and cooling 7Oct 06, 2007 7:35 pm np hope you receive it. I thought we had the working drawings but they are hard copy so we only sent the concept plan.
Let us know what you think. Cheers Dy & Michael ps good luck with Dave Re: Hydronic heating and cooling 8Oct 13, 2007 10:56 pm DeeElle,
Have a look at the following website for a home that has used radiant heating and cooling. http://www.design.asu.edu/radiant/02_ca ... sc_01.html I have been to germany and spoken to several radiant heating cooling look at: www.karo.cc the mats would be the best for the roof. have some samples. The problem with radiant cooling is that you should also run a air system with it to stop condensation and to provide fresh air. Also in australia we dont insulate our buildings well enough in comparision to other countries. So how well will your house be insulated. I had a mechanical engineer do the sums on a standard insulation in melbourne but the radiant cooling system wouldnt work. So at the end of the day you would be far better off spending money on making sure that you are super insulating your building and making it air tight. For instance are you doing a door blower testing on your new home. In nordic countries it is required that you have only .3 air changes per hour air tight buildings and then mechanical ventilation to provide fresh air. so you must make sure you insulate your home. maybe use spray polyurethane in walls and roof. have a look at the movie at this website http://energywisestructures.com this is very interesting hope this helps Re: Hydronic heating and cooling 9Oct 14, 2007 12:20 am DeeElle,
a bit more info look at the following power point presentation some of the photos take awhile to download http://www.naturalcooling.com/KaRo%20po ... /frame.htm also look at http://www.beka-klima.de they do the manufacturing for karo and themselves. go to the downloads and you can look at the cooling heating capacity of the systems. hydronic cooling dosent have great cooling capacity for australian conditions which much harsher than europe. In large commercial buildings they would use both hydronic and air system in combination to achieve the best results. so that is why not taken off in australia in residential due to cost of having to run both systems. it is a cost factor. have you had your house engineered to see if hydronic cooling will work. thanks michael hope all this helps[/b] Re: Hydronic heating and cooling 10Oct 14, 2007 8:58 pm I'm going for hydronic solar heating, with some cooling. When I say cooling it's basically during summer helping to dump the heat stored in the house at night to the solar panels. This would aid the more conventional night ventialtion.
I like DeeElle's system using a heat pump to maintain both a hot and cold water tank. As isogroup/Michael mentioned, you have to be careful not to go below the dew point or the floors will beome wet. This would be a problem on very humid days. I'm sure very elegant low energy heating and cooling systems can be put together that pay for themselves within 10 to 15 years, but they are not really available. There's a market out there! Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Re: Hydronic heating and cooling 11Oct 16, 2007 10:03 am Thanks Michael and Casa for the information. Our computer has been offline so we haven't had a chance to respond.
Yes we also had some questions about the dew point and house insulation. Our supplier of the hydronic system is difficult to get hold of however he has just sent us an email that outlines the following: 'The heating is provided using Rehau in-slab heating pipes, and cooling using room air handling units. The system is driven by electric thermal transfer unit. This is coupled to a hot water storage tank complete with a domestic hot water coil and a cold water storage buffer tank. The heat pump has a high efficiency rating, and switches to off-peak tariff power whenever it becomes available on line. As I mentioned at our meeting, we require engineering figures to ensure the minimum capacity of heat load for cooling is achieved for your house construction detail. I will be meeting with our Engineer this Monday. This is important especially whilst the system is relatively new. On receipt of his calculations we will be able to firm up our schedule of equipment' Hopefully we will have some answers soon. Cheers Re: Hydronic heating and cooling 12Oct 16, 2007 12:32 pm DeeElle,
Good to hear from you after the pause. So it looks like the in-slab hydronic pipes only provide heating and the cooling is done by the "air handling units". This adds to the cost, but is better since the warth comes from below (warm air rises) and the cooling, presumably, comes from above (cool air falls). This will also eliminate the dew concern since the air handlers can have drip trays that divert the water outside. I would reply to the supplier with: You talk about an "electric thermal transfer unit" and a "heat pump". Are these the same thing? It would be good to get a schematic diagram of your system as I'm sure isogroup, myself and others can give you some good feedback. You certainly have a novel system, but it seems they are still working out some of the high level details. Cheers, Casa Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Re: Hydronic heating and cooling 13Oct 16, 2007 7:27 pm Hi Casa
I must confess we are starting to get pretty annoyed with the limited contact we are having with the supplier of the system, as we are due to lay the slab in the next few weeks and still have little idea what the design entails. Once we have a response I will post it on the forum but unfortunately we may have to proceed without the system. Our time frames are very tight and the builder is keen to lay the slab asap (otherwise we may be up for penalties) Cheers Re: Hydronic heating and cooling 14Oct 16, 2007 7:48 pm DeeElle,
You could always run the hydronic pipes and leave them unterminated. This should be a small cost and leaves the option opento use the proposed system or something more conventional in the future. Hopefully the supplier will open up the communication channels shortly. Cheers, Casa Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Re: Hydronic heating and cooling 15Oct 17, 2007 1:02 am Just sent an email to enquiries@ecologics.net.au and I got a delivery failure. Is the mailbox full or is it a more ominous sign? Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Re: Hydronic heating and cooling 16Oct 18, 2007 1:38 am Casa2 DeeElle, You could always run the hydronic pipes and leave them unterminated. This should be a small cost and leaves the option opento use the proposed system or something more conventional in the future. Hopefully the supplier will open up the communication channels shortly. Casa We could run the pipes, but dont know enough about the system to create the loops. Due to the communication difficulties with the provider, we still have no technical information (after 3 months of trying to get details). The engineers are pressing for final decisions on the slab which is due to be upgraded to support the system. With so many uncertainties we will probably fall back to Plan B (traditional heating/cooling). The communication problems are becoming insurmountable. At least we have reasonable air flow and upgraded insulation which should assist passive heating/cooling. We'll keep you informed of any technical info, as hopefully the system will be further advanced by the time you start your build next year. We are pretty disappointed but are beginning to console ourselves with the gas heater. Cheers and thanks for the help. Re: Hydronic heating and cooling 17Oct 18, 2007 7:28 am DeeElle,
Contact a hydronic heating supplier and just get them to put in the hydronic pipes. Everythign else can happen latter. Contact Yak_Chat who is also in Adelaide and seems to have good contacts. he may know somone or can refer you to someone. Emilis Prelgauskas, who's based in Monarto is an ecoarchitect and would also know the name of a good supplier. From what I've gathered, your proposed system is so experimental that they have not worked out the details yet. Therefore they are not communicating with you since they are not ready. Perhaps if you asked them to just give you the hydronic pipe details that may work. It would be a pity to come this close to upgrading your climate control and have to abandon it. In summary, there must be plenty of eager hydronic piping suppliers that will help you make the in-slab piping happen. Later you can use the proposed system or get somone else to provide solar heating. Cheers, Casa Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Re: Hydronic heating and cooling 18Oct 18, 2007 4:42 pm Casa
You know just how to keep us interested! We are on a VERYshort timeframe but I reckon we will give it another shot tomorrow and see if we can find someone else to install the system. Cheers Does anyone have a suggestion for a good hydronic in slab heating speacialist who may be able to help me with an existing system and wether or not it may need a seperator… 0 4882 Currently renovating, and our main lounge is 5m x 10m, with a cathedral roof peaking at 6.5m high. Currently have tiles on concrete slab. Room is very hard to heat. I am… 0 4813 I recently went through a similar renovation and move scenario when updating our family home. We also swapped some rooms around and tackled a major… 2 10032 |