Browse Forums Heating, Cooling & Insulation 1 Mar 04, 2010 10:52 am We're building and at the moment have included refrig ducted aircon by the builder. We haven't finalised our contract yet, so we still have the option to let the builder do it, or we arrange it ourselves. All we know at the moment is that the builder uses Brivis and I suspect it is the Brivis ICE add-on refrigerated cooling. Our house is two-storey and 52 squares inclu garage and alfresco. We want zoned AC as well. I'd like to get a few quotes from some cooling specialists before we finalise the building contract but I want to be prepared first. I understand the differences between standard and inverter technologies, but is there anything else I should be aware of so I don't look like an idiot? Also, has anyone installed the Brivis ICE air-conditioning and what do you think of it? Thanks in advance! Re: Things to know BEFORE getting a quote for AC? 2Mar 04, 2010 11:28 am Depends on how technical you want to be. There are some quite sophisticated A/C around like Actron ESP Ultima which can adjust settings widely to condition one room to most of the house and allow for multiple thermostat settings. For a large house you may need more than one return grille. Remember that the more zones, the higher the cost. Actuated dampers cost around $160 each + whatever ducting is needed. The Actron system and any inverter technology is more efficient to run but your mileage will vary. The top level Actron system suits households which have varying AC needs. It might not worth it if you are usually conditioning a number of rooms simultaneously If the installers quote varying AC sizes, ask them how they performed their heating and cooling load calculations. This depends on how much direct sun hits or enters the building (window or wall aspect, size, shading) and how much insulation is in the house. You can only do this properly with plans AND elevations. The unit is sized based on its output. The actual energy consumption is buried in the spec sheet. You want high output for low consumption (COP - Coefficient of Performance) You also ask about data sheets for operating temperature range (some will struggle if it is too hot or cold outside), COP graphs of the unit (how efficiently the unit works), noise levels. Enquire about warranties of the unit AND the duct AND the actuators AND the grilles - they may differ. You can ask the installers how they mount the unit to prevent vibration, noise or weathering and when they install the ducts. Ask about details about usual procedures to prevent damage to the building e.g. leaving marks on the ceiling ('we use gloves') Ask about tech support. Who do you call and what is expected turnaround time. Re: Things to know BEFORE getting a quote for AC? 3Mar 04, 2010 2:20 pm That's great information dynomite69. Thank you very much. I have one more question, and this will depend on the length of string of course, but do you have any estimate on price we could expect to pay for say 4 zones? I'm going to arrange some quotes, but to be forewarned is to be prepared! Re: Things to know BEFORE getting a quote for AC? 4Mar 04, 2010 2:37 pm One thing we were asked when getting our quotes was how many zones would we want to operate at any one time. In my case on a really hot day I may want to run all zones at once so the unit needs to be able to cope. If you would only use 1 or 2 zones at once that would change the unit you would need. I can turn off as many zones as I don't need at anytime. We are getting an 8 zone 23kw Actron ESP Plus for under $16k, in Sydney. Our house in only 40 SQ, so much smaller than yours. Building at The Ponds Land reg 3/12/09, Land settled 18/12/09 Approved by Design Panel 16/11/09, Submitted to council 24/11/09, Approved by Council 21/1/10 Site Start 21/5/10 http://andyminpondsbuild.blogspot.com/ https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=19800 Re: Things to know BEFORE getting a quote for AC? 5Mar 04, 2010 2:46 pm The installer should indicate the maximal conditioned area possible. This is usually smaller than the total house area. The problem with oversizing a unit is that it runs more inefficiently at lower capacities. We have built an energy efficient house which is well shaded and protected in summer and well insulated for winter. Average use over summer would not exceed 1 hour/day. Most days it hasn't been needed. During heat waves it runs 2 hours/day max to bring down the temperature which is then maintained until the cooler change in the evening. The cost of cooling for us is about $1/day. Re: Things to know BEFORE getting a quote for AC? 6Mar 04, 2010 4:12 pm Hi guys I'm not familiar with squares when it comes to the house size - our house will be 253.5 square meters (exluding garage, portico and the alfresco) and will need max 7 zones so what sort of unit should we look for? We like the sound of the Arcton ESP Plus but what we actually need to check and enquire for? Ah forgot to mention that we have an LG unit at the house we are going to demolish and it's pretty crap - very poor performer in the sumer and freezes in the winter and we live in Perth... The house is light coloured double brick, with light tiled roof, most of our windows are facing north and south with only a couple of small windows on the east and west. The builder is supplying 3.0 Bradford Batts for the roof. Thanks Preliminary agreement 23/11 Contract 22/03 Prestart 06/04 - finalised on 30/04 Unconditional approval 10/05 Demolition 05/07 Slab 26/08 Brickwork 13/09-06/10 Roof frame started 07/10 viewtopic.php?f=31&t=32292 Re: Things to know BEFORE getting a quote for AC? 7Mar 04, 2010 4:28 pm OurLindrum52 We're building and at the moment have included refrig ducted aircon by the builder. We haven't finalised our contract yet, so we still have the option to let the builder do it, or we arrange it ourselves. All we know at the moment is that the builder uses Brivis and I suspect it is the Brivis ICE add-on refrigerated cooling. Our house is two-storey and 52 squares inclu garage and alfresco. We want zoned AC as well. I'd like to get a few quotes from some cooling specialists before we finalise the building contract but I want to be prepared first. I understand the differences between standard and inverter technologies, but is there anything else I should be aware of so I don't look like an idiot? Also, has anyone installed the Brivis ICE air-conditioning and what do you think of it? Thanks in advance! By all means get a quote from the builder. # Not matter which way you go get them to do all the 3-phase power, it's much easier and cheaper at the outset. # Also get the builder to quote on "ducting only". They'll want a few thousand to box all the ducts and droppers in but on a multi-storey house it's far easier for the builder to do it then you doing it all after hand over! # Get quotes from respected installers, call Actron and Daikin and ask for good installers in your area. # Decision - do you want to cool the whole house at once or can you get away by doing a couple of zones at a time? # Refrigerated air-con versus evaporative? Otherwise it is very important to know the kW capacity you need. We have a 36sq house with an Actron ESP+ 19kW and live near Sydney, that size unit does a great job in our house which wasn't particularly hot to begin with. 15kW might've been ok but I prefer a bit more biff. Zones are cheap and don't let anyone sell you otherwise. For a few hundred bucks extra I have 8 zones. I'd hate to cool half the house when I only need a couple of rooms at a time, conversely our air-con (kW) is powerful enough so we can have all zones on at once if we so choose. Some builders (and installers) try to sneak in wimpy little systems which make their price look cheaper but they can only effectively handle half the zones at any given time. Get 2 or more controllers/temp-sensors, these make the unit work smarter. Again easy to do pre-build, hard post-build. Brivis are a respectable brand but they seem to specialise in evaporative systems, this idea of an "add-on" handling a 52sq house sounds crazy to me. Dedicated refrig brands like ActronAir, Daikin and Temperzone all specialise in ducted (refrig) air-conditioners and even they don't have domestic systems that will handle that sized house, how will an "add-on" go? Actron and Daikin have much larger commercial systems which could be used for your place but you may be staring down the barrel of two separate domestic systems. Ouch. Unless you're happy to limit the number of zones used at any given time? It all depends on the house and how hot it gets. I reckon a 52sq version of our house on our block would only need one 24kW system because we've got solid bricks, tons of insulation, no west facing windows, reasonable blinds, decent breezes etc etc but other houses would fry. Summary. 1. get builder to do all 3-phase power 2. get builder to quote on ducting only, if you get a 3rd party installer at least have the ducting AND provision for 2nd controller in place. Or get builder's agreement to allow you to install ducting/controllers during the build phase. 3. call Actron and Daikin to get names of good installers in your area for more quotes. 4. determine kW required. That depends on your house and if you want the capacity to cool the entire house at once. 5. decide where to put the zones ... Hope that helps. Re: Things to know BEFORE getting a quote for AC? 8Mar 04, 2010 4:37 pm Bagheera Hi guys I'm not familiar with squares when it comes to the house size - our house will be 253.5 square meters (exluding garage, portico and the alfresco) and will need max 7 zones so what sort of unit should we look for? We like the sound of the Arcton ESP Plus but what we actually need to check and enquire for? Ah forgot to mention that we have an LG unit at the house we are going to demolish and it's pretty crap - very poor performer in the sumer and freezes in the winter and we live in Perth... The house is light coloured double brick, with light tiled roof, most of our windows are facing north and south with only a couple of small windows on the east and west. The builder is supplying 3.0 Bradford Batts for the roof. Thanks I have Daikin ducted at work - I like it a lot. I have Actron ESP+ at home - I like it even more. 1 sq is 9.1 m2, so your 253m2 is 27.8 squares. But when they quote squares it usually includes garage, voids and other non-living space, so I'd guess you have a 36sq house. Re: Things to know BEFORE getting a quote for AC? 9Mar 04, 2010 4:51 pm A.Ryder Bagheera Hi guys I'm not familiar with squares when it comes to the house size - our house will be 253.5 square meters (exluding garage, portico and the alfresco) and will need max 7 zones so what sort of unit should we look for? We like the sound of the Arcton ESP Plus but what we actually need to check and enquire for? Ah forgot to mention that we have an LG unit at the house we are going to demolish and it's pretty crap - very poor performer in the sumer and freezes in the winter and we live in Perth... The house is light coloured double brick, with light tiled roof, most of our windows are facing north and south with only a couple of small windows on the east and west. The builder is supplying 3.0 Bradford Batts for the roof. Thanks I have Daikin ducted at work - I like it a lot. I have Actron ESP+ at home - I like it even more. 1 sq is 9.1 m2, so your 253m2 is 27.8 squares. But when they quote squares it usually includes garage, voids and other non-living space, so I'd guess you have a 36sq house. Thanks A.Ryder - very helpful Preliminary agreement 23/11 Contract 22/03 Prestart 06/04 - finalised on 30/04 Unconditional approval 10/05 Demolition 05/07 Slab 26/08 Brickwork 13/09-06/10 Roof frame started 07/10 viewtopic.php?f=31&t=32292 Re: Things to know BEFORE getting a quote for AC? 10Mar 04, 2010 9:17 pm A.Ryder But when they quote squares it usually includes garage, voids and other non-living space, so I'd guess you have a 36sq house. Who conditions these areas? Re: Things to know BEFORE getting a quote for AC? 11Mar 04, 2010 11:52 pm OurLindrum52 We're building and at the moment have included refrig ducted aircon by the builder. We haven't finalised our contract yet, so we still have the option to let the builder do it, or we arrange it ourselves. All we know at the moment is that the builder uses Brivis and I suspect it is the Brivis ICE add-on refrigerated cooling. Our house is two-storey and 52 squares inclu garage and alfresco. We want zoned AC as well. I'd like to get a few quotes from some cooling specialists before we finalise the building contract but I want to be prepared first. I understand the differences between standard and inverter technologies, but is there anything else I should be aware of so I don't look like an idiot? Also, has anyone installed the Brivis ICE air-conditioning and what do you think of it? Thanks in advance! Adam.R If you want indestructable and quiet then Actron with their vertical discharge for their split units is the way to go. The sound goes up, instead of horizontally and hitting the neighbour's windows. Anything with a variable speed fan in the outdoor unit (inverter, esp etc) will change the pitch of the sound and neighbours may demand a silencer built around it. The positive is that they are great when zoning is requied. Idealy get two split-ducted Actrons. One for the day zone and one for the bedrooms. That way the kids can be in bed at the right temp, with a temp sensor in the correct location (VERY important), and you can have control of your own a/c unit with your own temp sensor in the lounge room. This way the entire house can be airconditioned which is what is usually need when the kids getting to sleep, even just for the few hours that you're awake. Two sensors and therefore a/c units are essential in a two story house - one upstair and one downstairs. Keep it simple with the controls and less can go wrong. I worked on a $17M house using the above and it worked perfectly. Using only one traditional AC unit in a two storey or a large house with only one temp sensor will often lead to arguments (big temp differences between one end of the house and the other). I'd also google to see if there are recommendations or complaints posted about ac installers, and I'd get three quotes (builders do this so why shouldn't you). Also remember that you usually get what you pay for. Mech Eng Re: Things to know BEFORE getting a quote for AC? 12Mar 05, 2010 12:31 am An option that hasn't been discussed are multi-splits. More expensive but highly flexible. One large compressor feeds refrigerant to separate individually controlled AC split system units in the house. This would be also be more efficient because each room has its own return air vent so you can achieve better containment of air flow. Re: Things to know BEFORE getting a quote for AC? 13Mar 05, 2010 1:01 am dymonite69 An option that hasn't been discussed are multi-splits. More expensive but highly flexible. One large compressor feeds refrigerant to separate individually controlled AC split system units in the house. This would be also be more efficient because each room has its own return air vent so you can achieve better containment of air flow. That's why Daikin multi splits are specified by consultants as standard for nursing homes (high wall and cassettes are self contained - ie no ducting required), but they are beyond the reach and overkill for home owners. They're great for tiny self contained units, eg nursing homes / retirement hostels. http://www.daikin.com.au/products.asp?sid=7 Mech Eng Re: Things to know BEFORE getting a quote for AC? 14Mar 05, 2010 5:25 am Adam.R That's why Daikin multi splits are specified by consultants as standard for nursing homes (high wall and cassettes are self contained - ie no ducting required), but they are beyond the reach and overkill for home owners. They're great for tiny self contained units, eg nursing homes / retirement hostels. http://www.daikin.com.au/products.asp?sid=7 We put Daikin VRV systems into big houses all the time... If you can afford it, it's the best by miles... Re: Things to know BEFORE getting a quote for AC? 15Mar 05, 2010 7:44 am IceMan and Adam.R - what sort of prices are we talking about for the Daikin VRV - is it worth putting one in for a single floor house? Preliminary agreement 23/11 Contract 22/03 Prestart 06/04 - finalised on 30/04 Unconditional approval 10/05 Demolition 05/07 Slab 26/08 Brickwork 13/09-06/10 Roof frame started 07/10 viewtopic.php?f=31&t=32292 Re: Things to know BEFORE getting a quote for AC? 16Mar 05, 2010 8:42 am Bagheera IceMan and Adam.R - what sort of prices are we talking about for the Daikin VRV - is it worth putting one in for a single floor house? It's that string thing... depends how many fancoils and the type, etc... Examples... 14 heads in Woolwich was $115k... 5 heads in Northbridge is only $35k... controls and home automation integration can add lots more... Re: Things to know BEFORE getting a quote for AC? 19Mar 18, 2010 8:45 pm this may be a silly question, but I'm curious how can the ducted AC work to correct temperature if there's only 1-2 temp sensors in a big 8-zone systems ? Surely there must be cases where the rooms/zones they are in are not turned on ? Re: Things to know BEFORE getting a quote for AC? 20Mar 18, 2010 9:32 pm You are right. You can only precisely control the temperature in the room which contains a sensor. The Actron Brochure makes this clear. Zoning is also not as precise as you would imagine either. The conditioned area also includes any intervening area between the zoned area and the return grille. Depends what you're current inclusions are, but we're not including wardrobes and will just use second hand ones until we can save later on to get them built. Also have a… 3 11647 hey there! 😊 so, it’s kinda common for standard drawer depths to be around 500mm since most cabinets use this size to fit the usual runners… 3 20922 I was being kind to the builder. With the amount charged for the upgrade the builder is probably charging closer to 100% margin. There are a few variables as I… 5 14325 |