Browse Forums Heating, Cooling & Insulation 1 Nov 23, 2009 1:00 pm Hi everyone, I live in a townhouse in Sydney's Inner West and in summer upstairs (bedrooms and bathroom) gets very hot. We had insulation recently installed under the government's scheme. It is still quite warm and would like to lower temperatures a little more if possible. I have seen many house using "whirly birds" on their roofs but from the little bit of research I've done it seems the jury's out on whether they work or not. I came across this product - http://www.universaltileventilators.com.au/ - which claims to do the trick and looks less offensive - I believe, anyway - than those big whirly birds. Has anyone had any experience with the Universal Tile Ventilators? Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks in advance. Re: Universal Tile Ventilators 2Nov 23, 2009 2:08 pm "In principle" these work the same as whirly birds (in combination with something like an eave vent). They are just a slimline (and probably more expensive) version. There are a few threads of discussion on this general topic if you search for "whirly". As you have said yourself - the jury is still out. These systems will possibly slightly reduce the air temp of your roof space - but whether or not that has a significant effect on the interior temp is up for debate. Some anecdotal evidence suggests it does. Other evidence suggests that the whirly birds make no difference as they cannot move enough air. Some H1 members will advise that you are better to spend the money on roof sarking (to prevent the roof space heat from building up in the first place). Less roof space heat means that your in-roof A/C works more efficiently - so that is one positive. You need to consider a whole bunch of other parameters and explore other options before expecting these mechanisms to be the silver bullet for you. Such as -if those upstairs rooms have external western walls - then you will be fighting an uphill battle from the start if you think that roof ventilation will reduce room temps. any thoughts ? Re: Universal Tile Ventilators 3Nov 23, 2009 4:06 pm Thanks for the prompt response. My place already has sarking (that's the silver lining under the roof tiles, right?), which I assume is as old as the house (13 years old). Am I better off getting new sarking? If so, is it expensive? Re: Universal Tile Ventilators 4Nov 23, 2009 5:35 pm I don't believe there is any straightforward way of replacing sarking, the tiles would have to be taken off, and if it's in good condition then it should still be doing its job. Do the walls have insulation? Which way do the windows face? Re: Universal Tile Ventilators 5Nov 24, 2009 9:55 am I'm not sure if the walls have insulation; it's double brick so I can't get in between to have a look. Windows face North, West and South. Sun hits the front of the house in the morning and a bit of the side in the afternoon. Re: Universal Tile Ventilators 6Nov 24, 2009 11:47 am Evel I'm not sure if the walls have insulation; it's double brick so I can't get in between to have a look. Windows face North, West and South. Sun hits the front of the house in the morning and a bit of the side in the afternoon. If the walls are double brick - then you have wall insulation by default (the air cavity between the bricks). Is the upper level double brick also ? Are upstairs windows contributing to the heating up ? What is the internal ventilation like upstairs ? ... that would make a huge difference. Hot air rising up to the upper level could be sucked out of the house through ventilation. It's more effective in double storey houses (or houses with raked ceilings). If you don't have windows that allow this - there are ventilation system that you can install in your internal ceiling. Some examples are: http://www.edmonds.com.au/html/products/vent_a_room_system_250mm.htm http://www.edmonds.com.au/html/products/whirlymate_closable_square_ceiling_register.htm These would be far more effective that just the whirly in the roof space. Re: Universal Tile Ventilators 7Nov 24, 2009 12:53 pm JilaMint If the walls are double brick - then you have wall insulation by default (the air cavity between the bricks). Is the upper level double brick also ? Are upstairs windows contributing to the heating up ? What is the internal ventilation like upstairs ? ... that would make a huge difference. Hot air rising up to the upper level could be sucked out of the house through ventilation. It's more effective in double storey houses (or houses with raked ceilings). If you don't have windows that allow this - there are ventilation system that you can install in your internal ceiling. Some examples are: http://www.edmonds.com.au/html/products/vent_a_room_system_250mm.htm http://www.edmonds.com.au/html/products/whirlymate_closable_square_ceiling_register.htm These would be far more effective that just the whirly in the roof space. Yes, the townhouse is full brick downstairs and upstairs. Although we have blinds that we keep shut during the day, I'm sure the windows are contributing to the heat inside. As far as ventilation upstairs, there is none built into the home at this point. The windows in the bedrooms are double hung, so I guess the top half can be left open during the day (but not a great idea when we're at work). Is this what you mean by windows acting as ventilation? Re: Universal Tile Ventilators 8Nov 24, 2009 1:56 pm Hot air rises, we are aware of it even in our split level house. I think ventilating the upstairs rooms, ie giving the hot air somewhere to escape, rather than just ventilating the roof space, is a good idea. We visited a retrofitted small office building during one of the Sustainable House Days and it had a system where the ground floor windows and something at the top of the building opened early in the morning to draw cool air through the building. Of course this was set up primarily for workers comfort during the day and I guess your concern is to cool those rooms for sleeping at night, but the basic principle is the same, let the hot air escape upwards allowing more cool air to be drawn in. How you can achieve that depends on what you can do at the top (those links JilaMint provided look good) and what you can do downstairs to let air in from some cool shaded part of the exterior (keeping in mind issues of security, and also not somewhere dusty or with vehicle exhaust). I'd also consider what could be done about the upstairs windows, especially the west facing window/s which get afternoon sun. We have lived in two west-facing houses so I know what that's like. In the second house we got the idea to put shadecloth along the western side, not too difficult on a single storey building, and it made an appreciable difference. So I would look at how to shade those windows from the outside. Works much better than window coverings on the inside of the window. These days you can actually buy window shadecloths from hardware stores but I think you need access from the outside to raise or lower them so for upstairs windows you might need something more expensive like awnings or rollershutters. Re: Universal Tile Ventilators 9Nov 24, 2009 7:39 pm As per the suggestions above - try to vent it out from inside the room via a whirly through the roof and use a closeable vent in the ceiling so you can control the heat losses in winter. Sounds like a case of hot air rising and also a bit of window heat build up and it's not able to get out during the day. Re: Universal Tile Ventilators 10Nov 25, 2009 9:28 am Thanks to everyone for your advice so far. With the vent-a-room suggestion, is it best to have the flexible piping going directly between the ceiling vent in the room and the whirly bird on the roof? Or remove the pipe, have the ceiling vent move the hot air from the room into the attic space and then have the whirly bird try and move all the hot air in the attic space out? Re: Universal Tile Ventilators 12Nov 26, 2009 9:16 am Yak_Chat depends - but it sounds like just a straight vent if what you need based on having sarking and insulation already. Just get that air out of the room as quicky as possible. Sorry mate, can you clarify: do you mean just a vent in the bedroom ceiling venting into the attic will be sufficient or a vent with piping to a whirlybird and venting outside? Re: Universal Tile Ventilators 13Nov 26, 2009 1:21 pm Hi Evel the most improtant thing you can do to stop heat ingress is to EXTERNALLY shade your windows, with awnings or similar. 'Pull stick' or 'vertiscreen' are fine. This will stop alot of the heat getting into your house. There is not point replacing existing sarking. Regarding ventilation, the whirly birds are not much chop (read dynomite69's posts). You could look at a thermostatically controlled venting system (www.smartroof.com.au, www.solarventi.com.au). Finally cavity brick walls have an R value of .56. A properly insulated modern brick veneer wall will have a r value of around 3 (ie 6x the insulation). You could put some foam insulation down your walls (www.ecofoamwallinsulation.com.au) Re: Universal Tile Ventilators 14Nov 26, 2009 7:25 pm Quote: I'm not sure if the walls have insulation; it's double brick so I can't get in between to have a look. Windows face North, West and South. Sun hits the front of the house in the morning and a bit of the side in the afternoon. Obviously without seeing plans and layout, exactly how much sun is hitting the house, knowing your location and the prevailing wind directions and sun angles - it's a tough call to suggest what will work best. re the whirly - if you want to vent the hot air out as quick as possible then a tube direct from the ceiling in the house through the whirly will do that for you. But as lambchoppa says - if it's entering another way - then you are better off to stop it entering - but that all depends on body corporate rules and your budget & how easily that can be done. Re: Universal Tile Ventilators 15Jan 10, 2011 2:46 pm Blast from the past, but has anyone installed these things and found an improvement? Like most double stories, my upper floor gets bloody hot but downstairs is always nice. My searching today has discovered trying to open some windows upstairs slightly to promote airflow and remove the heat which I'll try, but seeing what other options there are. I thought a whirlybird above the garage and one on the upper roof both on the rear of the home where they can't be seen would help vent a lot of heat build up in the roof cavity but hard to find anyone on here that says they're not a waste of time! Re: Universal Tile Ventilators 16Jan 11, 2011 10:16 am I know the arguments against using whirlybirds - that they can't shift enough air; that the roof space is not living space; that roof insulation will stop heat soaking through from the roof space to the living space below; and so on. My own personal experience in a house in Perth: we installed 2 whirlybirds in the roof and it made an immediate difference to temperatures inside the house. Not a hugely dramatic difference to be sure but it was unmistakably present. And even if it was only a couple of degrees or so that's a couple of degrees worth that your A/C or other cooling systems don't need to deal with. Re: Universal Tile Ventilators 17Jan 20, 2011 8:25 pm Thudd 2 whirlybirds in the roof and it made an immediate difference to temperatures inside the house. Agreed. I have cathedral ceilings with no roof cavity. So my 2 whirlybirds are connected directly to inside. I find they remove a lot of heat in summer. Then I just block the vent in winter. Re: Universal Tile Ventilators 18Jan 23, 2011 9:34 am I read it on this forum somewhere that leaving a window upstairs cracked open a bit might help. So in a bedroom furtherst from the stairs, I've found on the 35deg days where the house would be an oven upstairs its now still hot but not as bad. So that little bit of heat being able to escape does help. Whether something in the roof space would assist given I have R3.5 insulation is another story. Bit of an expensive exercise to have someone come out and fit a whirlybird etc to test it out! Looking for advice on whether this variation in tile colour is acceptable. 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