Jun 20, 2007 8:06 pm
We plan to have a fireplace in the family room (open plan kitchen accross and closed rumpus/music room next door).. Builder has only 2 options- Jetmaster J1 and J2(gas operated, burning log effect). with cost approx 5.8 and 5.9 K respectively installed.. I think they retail at about 4K . Jetmaster also has electrical ones.. I would like to know if
Electric consumes more energy?
which one is better.. obviously its personal choice but I really have no clue as I am used to the old style Rinnai gas fire which is great so sit at in Autumn. We are not keen about the wood fire as lighting and extinguishing may be a hassle and we might never use it.Looking forward to some guidance from all of you.
PS-I am happy to get it done after handover if it will be a straightforward installation( builder will provide gas and electric point) If i can save 1-2 K it could be money saved towards a nice mantle... or else we just go for a stainless steel fascia.
Re: Choosing Jetmaster fireplace3
Jun 25, 2007 1:41 am
We got the Rinnai Royale ETR built in our new house. The builder's option was jetmaster doublesided, but was very expensive, and we didn't want the doublesided fireplace. We bought the fireplace ourselves when it was on sale, but included in the contract for the builders to install it. It cost us just under $2900 for the fire including plinth and flue kit and they charged approx $500 for installation! It works a treat and also has a timer function which we set to go on a little while before we get up in the morning.
After 8 years of wood fires and jarrah dust everywhere in our old place it's bliss!
Re: Choosing Jetmaster fireplace4
Jun 25, 2007 11:53 am
Heating cost & C02 comparison chart. But keep in mind that everyone is predicting some pretty steep rises in electricity costs over the next few years...
http://www.choice.com.au/viewArticle.as ... ng+options
Re: Choosing Jetmaster fireplace5
Jun 25, 2007 12:26 pm
Intresting table Cabinfever. So (in Melb) if I want to save the planet, I should go with slow combustion wood. If I want to save my hip pocket, I should go with Electric air con.
Not far off from what I have planned. We will have ducted gas in most rooms, reverse cycle air in about half the rooms (using high efficiency splits) and a couple of slow combustion wood fires (probably one downstairs and one in our bedroom). With some careful balancing, perhaps we can get the best of both.
I see the gas as a good way to heat the whole house very quickly, the a/c to heat selected areas very quickly and the slow combustion fires as a good slow and steady heat for the whole house.
Re: Choosing Jetmaster fireplace6
Jun 25, 2007 2:19 pm
This edition of Renew magazine has an article on pellet heaters ... like a slow combustion heater but apparently more efficient and therefore less polluting. The pellets are made from plantation timber waste that would otherwise be going into landfill.
I have no views on pros or cons of these, but thought I'd chuck the idea into the mix. This month's Renew is available from http://www.ata.org.au.
The article gives the following websites for more info:
Re: Choosing Jetmaster fireplace8
Jun 25, 2007 2:49 pm
Do you know of any prices for the pellets? For instance how much for the 20kg bag mentioned and how much for a metric ton?
It sounds intresting but I am concerned as to how much it costs to run. I couldn't find any references to actual cost of pelletes on the pages you gave.
Re: Choosing Jetmaster fireplace9
Jun 25, 2007 2:53 pm
Thanks for this link Helen - it's great to see an invention that can make open fires a little less bad.
I think it's worth pointing out that Smartburn reduces particulate emissions. It doesn't reduce your output of the worst greenhouse gases, CO2 and methane.
While we're on the subject of wood fires, if people do have them, I urge you to take great care with your choice of what to burn.
Victoria’s remnant red gum forests, including the Murray River’s Barmah-Millewa, are increasingly being clear-felled using mechanical harvesters, destroying already rare habitat. Firewood is not just waste – as groundwood it's habitat, even if it’s ‘salvaged’ after logging operations. Ground-wood is habitat for at least 20 bird species, many marsupial and reptile species.
Approximately 1.85 million trailer-loads (m3) of firewood are used in Victoria each year, of which Melbourne consumes half. This is almost as much wood (1.9million m3) as is consumed in all of Victoria’s sawlog and pulplog forestry operations combined.
For more, including alternatives to burning red gum, see http://www.melbourne.foe.org.au/campaigns/barmah/firewood.htm
Re: Choosing Jetmaster fireplace10
Jun 25, 2007 2:58 pm
I wondered the very same question! Somewhat frustratingly, the article doesn't even mention the cost of the heater itself or the pellets.
I can only suggest you call the suppliers ...
I always wonder why it is so bloody hard for merchandisers to post their prices on websites!! I can only assume they think it will be harder for us to resist the lure of the product when we're actually in the showroom. Little do they know!!!
Re: Choosing Jetmaster fireplace11
Jun 25, 2007 3:24 pm
I am suspicious that it is because the priceof pellets is a bit high but I am hoping that it is not.
With the Smartburn, I have just been reading through the site. I started off really sceptical, but I think it might be worth a try. Basically, it seems that it works by making sure that everything iss thoroughly burned ie. no black soot.
You are right in that it doesn't get rid of CO2 or methane, but it does appear to use less wood per unit of heat output. The way I see that is that less wood burned, less CO2 released and less waste.
I have around 10 tons of wood from trees that we had to remove to fit our house onto the block. (mostly sick or dying or non native). I expect that we will be able to get plenty more when neighbours cut down trees. Seems there is always a bit of wood freely available around the area. Unfortunately, I doubt that it will be left to sit long enough to be used by animals/birds.
Re: Choosing Jetmaster fireplace12
Jun 26, 2007 4:04 pm
Re the pellet machine .
I saw them at the eco show and I think they were in the $2.5k to $3K range. and the pellets were so much per bag, and it used so many kg/hr, but the quick sums I did in my head it was not something i went wow, must look into that. !!!
I have an issue with the extra energy required to make the pellets, OK they are sawdust - but something has to be done to bind them into pellets, which would mean more fuel power etc, and secondly the pellet machine MUST have the fan and motor running when you are using it. More power fuel etc. The motor auger feeds the pellets and the fan forces the air through it.
3XB, if you have acreage, start planting some trees now. When I had 30 acres I was preparing sections to be planted with various aussie gums as firewood and fine furniture timbers as an extra income and my own firewood lot.
And don't assume there will always be heaps of wood, because you only need to go camping in any well used camp site and you'll soon see how far you have to go to find enough firewood Thast will happen where you are too - eventually
So grow your own and be carbon neutral
Re: Choosing Jetmaster fireplace13
Jun 26, 2007 4:14 pm
We only have just under half a acre however, about 10 houses down from us they took down a tree recently and they must have had around 30 to 50 tons of wood - it was huge and they had a notice up to help yourself. At the end of our road, the council has taken down a tree with the wood just sitting there for months now - proobably about 5 to 10 tonne. A couple of K's away, 2 trees taken down by council in the region of 25 tons.
I am surrounded by national forest and the trees fall down from time to time or are taken down by council when they look dangerous. Saw one that looked pretty precarious the other day.
The pellet machine is looking a bit pricy. did you have a look at the smartburn stuff?
Re: Choosing Jetmaster fireplace14
Jun 26, 2007 4:15 pm
The article considers the issue of drying the wood and concludes: "the amount of energy contained in the fuel would be considerably greater than the energy needed to dry the fuel, so overall, using pellets over other fuels like electricity and natural gas should result in lower emissions overall." It doesn't seem to take into account production of the actual pellets.
Personally, in an urban setting, I'd still be going for great passive solar, double glazing and green power over any fossil-fuel burning process.
Re: Choosing Jetmaster fireplace15
Jun 26, 2007 8:30 pm
Being green is easy - forget everthing that Kermit ever said
A mate of mine built a thermally efficient house in Yass - Yes cold Yass, and he said even mid winter they used to have to open the place up to cool it down because it got too hot and that was without a fire or any active heating on !!!
I've never used it but the principle sounds like it could work. but if it is making the combustion process more exposive by burning unused gasses then why would it not work.?
I make the bang for buck marginal cost wise, but less smoke, a cleaner flue and healthier environment - should be of benefit. I'll let you know after I buy one on the weekend
Re the Bang for buck
Lets say you burn around 3 to 4 ton of wood per season @ $220 per ton = $660 per year. (Free for some - but you still need to cut and stack it
If you burn a fire for say 120 days per year = 4 months = 1.3 smart burns which cost $46 ea = approx $62
So thats around a 9 to 10% increase in cost of "fuel for the fire"
With a claimed 17% performance increase.
Which makes a 7% improvement - but the good bit is the envrionment is much better off as is the fireplace
More info on wood / pellet fires here. Australian association for wood fire makers.
But as said by E - A good solar house and being green doesn't even need a fireplace
RrrBit RrrBit RRRibIT
Edit - In the UK - in many towns fires are banned.
I personally think that will/should happen here eventually too!!!
Re: Choosing Jetmaster fireplace16
Jun 27, 2007 8:29 pm
Good points on burning wood Elizabeth. We're building on a block which is heavily treed so some of the trees have to come down so our solar setup gets enough sun. We’ll use the wood in our combustion stove which we’ll cook on and use to heat out water in winter (solar in summer). And we’re careful to leave old and new logs on the ground to keep the ecosystem going. We’ve got echidnas and lizards and birds – we want to keep them. We also haven’t cut down the trees completely and the birds love the new growth. We’ll just have to remember to prune them!
And good luck with your ‘co-developer’ plan in Preston. I think your building co-operative is a fantastic idea.
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