Browse Forums Heating, Cooling & Insulation 1 Jul 09, 2009 2:59 pm The other night on Grand Designs, they were constructing an eco-home that was completely 100% air tight. They didn't even have any letter box slots cause it'd let air in!! So...my question is, HOW do they LIVE in a house where there is no air getting in!!?? Eventually won't you run out of air and just be breathing in carbon dioxide? HOW HORRIBLE! I heard mention of something about an air conditioning system that extracts the heat from the stale air and moves it all around the house. But what about the ACTUAL stale air? Where does it go? How does new air get in? WHAT THE!? I must be missing something here. How the hell did I become a senior member!? I know nothing! Re: Completely air tight homes? 2Jul 09, 2009 3:14 pm grace_slick So...my question is, HOW do they LIVE in a house where there is no air getting in!!?? Eventually won't you run out of air and just be breathing in carbon dioxide? HOW HORRIBLE! . Hi Grace Slick you would have to be one of my favourite posters! I have no idea of how to answer your question but you have brightened my day with this statement Mrs B Re: Completely air tight homes? 3Jul 09, 2009 3:19 pm European eco houses that I read about have very sophisticated ventilation systems. I brought over my own system from Europe: open the windows every day, even in winter. (Turn your heating off first.) It worked until about 2 years ago when we were broken into through an open bathroom window. Now I only do it when I'm home. I don't think we really realise how bad indoor air quality is. Re: Completely air tight homes? 4Jul 09, 2009 3:47 pm They explained that there is a system that recirculates and cleans the air. So stale indoor air is sucked in to a system that removes all the nasties, then pumps clean warm air inside. My understanding is that it's the same air - just cleaned. I'd think that they'd do something very similar on the International Space Station, in submarines, in hospitals where there is a dangerous airborne disease. After 4 years - we're in! Re: Completely air tight homes? 5Jul 09, 2009 3:59 pm Quote: My understanding is that it's the same air - just cleaned. Not quite. In that arch house they've installed a special ventilation system that forces the stale air outside thru a heat exchanger in the basement (pity they didn't show it, just the pipes), to heat the fresh air from the outside. I can't remember the exact figure, but they've said about the system that it can ventilate the house at 40 (or was it 10?) times the building code requirement. Chris My father rode a camel, I drive a car, my son flies in a jetliner, his son will ride a camel.Saudi saying Re: Completely air tight homes? 6Jul 09, 2009 5:50 pm I would have liked to see the system in detail too. I got the impression that they save the heat but change the air, but I can't quite get my mind around how, although I have heard of such systems before. What exactly is it that makes the heat move from the outgoing air across to the incoming air? It's probably really simple once you see it. There are other things that can improve air quality. NASA did a study of plants and found that certain plants are good at removing certain pollutants, eg spider plants are good at reducing formaldehyde. Re: Completely air tight homes? 7Jul 09, 2009 5:55 pm Energy efficient custom built house - Moving In 3 Weeks Re: Completely air tight homes? 8Jul 09, 2009 8:57 pm These systems are called heat recovery ventilators. The are found more commonly in commercial air con system. It is rare to find domestic versions in Oz. They can seen in colder areas of Europe or North America. They are standard fixtures for Passivhaus. They exchange inside and outside air but conserve heat. The design is quite complicated for a good one. Re: Completely air tight homes? 9Jul 10, 2009 7:01 am Bailey Or one of these: http://www.airchange.com.au/Products/ER ... fault.aspx - no idea how many of your kidneys you'd need to sell to afford one though. Re: Completely air tight homes? 10Jul 10, 2009 1:04 pm Hyper Bailey Or one of these: http://www.airchange.com.au/Products/ER ... fault.aspx - no idea how many of your kidneys you'd need to sell to afford one though. Shouldn't be both kidneys, the last one I quoted added about $5000 to the ducted system price(installed) Cheers The Air Cond Guy Re: Completely air tight homes? 11Jul 10, 2009 5:21 pm Macy I would have liked to see the system in detail too. I got the impression that they save the heat but change the air, but I can't quite get my mind around how There are various designs but the two streams of air (stale indoor & fresh outdoor) are made to pass close to each other but in opposite directions. Because of the temperature difference, heat is transferred from the outgoing stream to the incoming one. The system is not perfect as it is impossible to transfer all the heating energy. Good designs can preserve about 80% of the heat. http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/i ... opic=11900 Depending on the cost of electricity and your particular climate, it may not be cost-effective to use them. The cost of running the HRV fans that drive the system may be more than generating additional heating to compensate for allowing your house to have some natural ventilation. Re: Completely air tight homes? 12Jul 10, 2009 5:24 pm The Air Cond Guy Hyper Bailey $5000 to the ducted system price(installed) Can I ask what brand you used and the technical details associated with it? What is the usual maintenance associated with the unit? Can they be retrofitted to any ducted RCAC unit? Completely air tight homes - ventilation system in Melbourne 13Apr 23, 2010 2:18 pm The Air Cond Guy http://www.hrv.com.au/ The ventilation system should be commodity... as they are in many countries where you can build fully sealed houses; e.g. Norway, Japan and so on. You do not even notice these systems, they are so unobtrusive and they do not exist to do fancy cleaning of the air. But they hugely contribute to quality of living conditions inside and to health of the occupants... (no mould! etc) I wonder how things will develop in Australia with the recent waves of better insulated and sealed homes... without building code for compulsory ventilation systems or seemengly even lack of optional presence of these systems here. Here is an example of Norwegian homes, circa late 1970s and I am sure these systems are now even better. As much as I remember off top of my head - Homes beautifully insulated, windows and oors with rows of multiple seals. Each room has a small hole (say 2 cm diameter) in the ceiling in the opposite corner of the room from the door. Each of these holes is connected via a thin plastic pipe (say 1-2 cm in diameter, concealed in the ceiling structures of the building) to a base system box (looks like a small box - A2 size on the wall , say in the laundry or basement) which pushes very slowly, all the time, air to these small hole registers in the rooms. The "box" also sucks the air from its vicinity to create air movement in the building. All internal doors in the building have a small gap above the floor/threshold. The "box" is also connected through a very small register to outside of the house on the side wall. The box allows you to set number of parameters such as, for example, the % of air that needs to be injected from outside in to the air pushed to the rooms (e.g. 5%). It also allows to set the desired number of times the volume of air needs to be replaced in the building over one day period. It works completely silently. Another example, house in Japan, 2009. House in Tokyo, beautifully constructed, insulated and sealed. The seal is so complete that the builder must demonstrate successful results from the following test. All windows are closed, a plastic membrane with a vent is attached outside of the front door frame with a sticky tape, a vacuum pump is attached to the vent and the pressure is reduced inside of the house - the test is successful of the lower pressure stays inside for something like half an hour but I am not sure what the numbers actually are. Anyway ... it gives you an idea. Back to the ventilation... the ventilation system, conceptually similar to the Norwegian one, is completely concealed in the floor structure space between the ground and first floor, pre-set and automated - no user controls. It works completely silently. Now, I have a question - how can I get such commodity small ventilation system in Melbourne... installed by one of major package builders......... in my new home? Built a 2 storey house... hebel, proctor, pvc windows, aiphone, deck roofs, louver covered patio Re: Completely air tight homes - ventilation system in Melbo 14Apr 25, 2010 10:12 am Rudy The Air Cond Guy http://www.hrv.com.au/ The ventilation system should be commodity... as they are in many countries where you can build fully sealed houses; e.g. Norway, Japan and so on. You do not even notice these systems, they are so unobtrusive and they do not exist to do fancy cleaning of the air. But they hugely contribute to quality of living conditions inside and to health of the occupants... (no mould! etc) I wonder how things will develop in Australia with the recent waves of better insulated and sealed homes... without building code for compulsory ventilation systems or seemengly even lack of optional presence of these systems here. Here is an example of Norwegian homes, circa late 1970s and I am sure these systems are now even better. As much as I remember off top of my head - Homes beautifully insulated, windows and oors with rows of multiple seals. Each room has a small hole (say 2 cm diameter) in the ceiling in the opposite corner of the room from the door. Each of these holes is connected via a thin plastic pipe (say 1-2 cm in diameter, concealed in the ceiling structures of the building) to a base system box (looks like a small box - A2 size on the wall , say in the laundry or basement) which pushes very slowly, all the time, air to these small hole registers in the rooms. The "box" also sucks the air from its vicinity to create air movement in the building. All internal doors in the building have a small gap above the floor/threshold. The "box" is also connected through a very small register to outside of the house on the side wall. The box allows you to set number of parameters such as, for example, the % of air that needs to be injected from outside in to the air pushed to the rooms (e.g. 5%). It also allows to set the desired number of times the volume of air needs to be replaced in the building over one day period. It works completely silently. Another example, house in Japan, 2009. House in Tokyo, beautifully constructed, insulated and sealed. The seal is so complete that the builder must demonstrate successful results from the following test. All windows are closed, a plastic membrane with a vent is attached outside of the front door frame with a sticky tape, a vacuum pump is attached to the vent and the pressure is reduced inside of the house - the test is successful of the lower pressure stays inside for something like half an hour but I am not sure what the numbers actually are. Anyway ... it gives you an idea. Back to the ventilation... the ventilation system, conceptually similar to the Norwegian one, is completely concealed in the floor structure space between the ground and first floor, pre-set and automated - no user controls. It works completely silently. Now, I have a question - how can I get such commodity small ventilation system in Melbourne... installed by one of major package builders......... in my new home? You might find that difficult to get with the major package builders. Most of them are years behind with their methods of building as most people don't look at healthy and energy efficient building. All they look at is colours ,gimmicks, size and "flash" appearance regardless of little substance behind it. HRV is not the same as it is based on sucking warm stale air from the roofspace at times when you don't need it. roofs Change is what we need! Can we? YES WE CAN!!!!! Re: Completely air tight homes - ventilation system in Melbo 15Apr 25, 2010 11:05 am Rudy The Air Cond Guy http://www.hrv.com.au/ The ventilation system should be commodity... as they are in many countries where you can build fully sealed houses; e.g. Norway, Japan and so on. You do not even notice these systems, they are so unobtrusive and they do not exist to do fancy cleaning of the air. But they hugely contribute to quality of living conditions inside and to health of the occupants... (no mould! etc) I wonder how things will develop in Australia with the recent waves of better insulated and sealed homes... without building code for compulsory ventilation systems or seemengly even lack of optional presence of these systems here. Here is an example of Norwegian homes, circa late 1970s and I am sure these systems are now even better. As much as I remember off top of my head - Homes beautifully insulated, windows and oors with rows of multiple seals. Each room has a small hole (say 2 cm diameter) in the ceiling in the opposite corner of the room from the door. Each of these holes is connected via a thin plastic pipe (say 1-2 cm in diameter, concealed in the ceiling structures of the building) to a base system box (looks like a small box - A2 size on the wall , say in the laundry or basement) which pushes very slowly, all the time, air to these small hole registers in the rooms. The "box" also sucks the air from its vicinity to create air movement in the building. All internal doors in the building have a small gap above the floor/threshold. The "box" is also connected through a very small register to outside of the house on the side wall. The box allows you to set number of parameters such as, for example, the % of air that needs to be injected from outside in to the air pushed to the rooms (e.g. 5%). It also allows to set the desired number of times the volume of air needs to be replaced in the building over one day period. It works completely silently. Another example, house in Japan, 2009. House in Tokyo, beautifully constructed, insulated and sealed. The seal is so complete that the builder must demonstrate successful results from the following test. All windows are closed, a plastic membrane with a vent is attached outside of the front door frame with a sticky tape, a vacuum pump is attached to the vent and the pressure is reduced inside of the house - the test is successful of the lower pressure stays inside for something like half an hour but I am not sure what the numbers actually are. Anyway ... it gives you an idea. Back to the ventilation... the ventilation system, conceptually similar to the Norwegian one, is completely concealed in the floor structure space between the ground and first floor, pre-set and automated - no user controls. It works completely silently. Now, I have a question - how can I get such commodity small ventilation system in Melbourne... installed by one of major package builders......... in my new home? In the UK they used to seal homes, but that caused sickness to occupants and buildings alike, now they legislate for 5000mm2 of ventilation per habitable room, and this is done via trickle vents fitted to windows. I am not sure about Norway, but next door Sweden is very aware of Radon gas accumulation in homes, so maybe that is the major function of the circulated fresh air, to prevent Radon collecting. (Radon which is carcinogenic is naturally emitted by rocks and being heavy, collects in corners of rooms). Trickle vents are available here... Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Completely air tight homes - ventilation system in Melbo 16Apr 25, 2010 12:04 pm ed @ EcoClassic Rudy The Air Cond Guy http://www.hrv.com.au/ The ventilation system should be commodity... as they are in many countries where you can build fully sealed houses; e.g. Norway, Japan and so on. You do not even notice these systems, they are so unobtrusive and they do not exist to do fancy cleaning of the air. But they hugely contribute to quality of living conditions inside and to health of the occupants... (no mould! etc) I wonder how things will develop in Australia with the recent waves of better insulated and sealed homes... without building code for compulsory ventilation systems or seemengly even lack of optional presence of these systems here. Here is an example of Norwegian homes, circa late 1970s and I am sure these systems are now even better. As much as I remember off top of my head - Homes beautifully insulated, windows and oors with rows of multiple seals. Each room has a small hole (say 2 cm diameter) in the ceiling in the opposite corner of the room from the door. Each of these holes is connected via a thin plastic pipe (say 1-2 cm in diameter, concealed in the ceiling structures of the building) to a base system box (looks like a small box - A2 size on the wall , say in the laundry or basement) which pushes very slowly, all the time, air to these small hole registers in the rooms. The "box" also sucks the air from its vicinity to create air movement in the building. All internal doors in the building have a small gap above the floor/threshold. The "box" is also connected through a very small register to outside of the house on the side wall. The box allows you to set number of parameters such as, for example, the % of air that needs to be injected from outside in to the air pushed to the rooms (e.g. 5%). It also allows to set the desired number of times the volume of air needs to be replaced in the building over one day period. It works completely silently. Another example, house in Japan, 2009. House in Tokyo, beautifully constructed, insulated and sealed. The seal is so complete that the builder must demonstrate successful results from the following test. All windows are closed, a plastic membrane with a vent is attached outside of the front door frame with a sticky tape, a vacuum pump is attached to the vent and the pressure is reduced inside of the house - the test is successful of the lower pressure stays inside for something like half an hour but I am not sure what the numbers actually are. Anyway ... it gives you an idea. Back to the ventilation... the ventilation system, conceptually similar to the Norwegian one, is completely concealed in the floor structure space between the ground and first floor, pre-set and automated - no user controls. It works completely silently. Now, I have a question - how can I get such commodity small ventilation system in Melbourne... installed by one of major package builders......... in my new home? In the UK they used to seal homes, but that caused sickness to occupants and buildings alike, now they legislate for 5000mm2 of ventilation per habitable room, and this is done via trickle vents fitted to windows. I am not sure about Norway, but next door Sweden is very aware of Radon gas accumulation in homes, so maybe that is the major function of the circulated fresh air, to prevent Radon collecting. (Radon which is carcinogenic is naturally emitted by rocks and being heavy, collects in corners of rooms). Trickle vents are available here... Ed Trickle ventilation is another option. Very easy to fit into the rebate and it is hardly visible. It is a base ventilation to combine with other means of ventilation or simply open the windows from time to time Change is what we need! Can we? YES WE CAN!!!!! Re: Completely air tight homes? 17Apr 26, 2010 8:32 am A number of heat exchange ventilators are available in Australia. The HRV system isn't a heat exchanger but a ventilation system that can move heat from the roof space. Look at the Lossnay system from Mitsubshi or similar from AirChange for actual heat exchange systems. I calculated the energy use from the lossnay unit and got 7kw per day based on 50% on extra low and the rest on low speed. I do have larger units operating on commercial buildings i work in and they are a boost to indoor air quality so actually think they are worthwhile in the right application but in my new home I think I will just open windows and doors like I do now. Re: Completely air tight homes? 18Apr 26, 2010 10:05 am We have coem across a number of products that oeprate in this space. You may like to also visit: Air Change - www.air-change.com Solar Breeze - www.solarbreeze.com.au Venmar Air Exchange System - www.healthyhouse.com or www.ven-air.com.au Solar Vent - www.solarvent.com.au Re: Completely air tight homes? 19Apr 30, 2010 12:01 am Thanks for suggestions. Will check them out. Anyone could point me to pictures, description etc of the actual "Trickle ventilation..." Also, trying to understand... the "Very easy to fit into the rebate" and "it is hardly visible." Built a 2 storey house... hebel, proctor, pvc windows, aiphone, deck roofs, louver covered patio Re: Completely air tight homes? 20Apr 30, 2010 11:28 pm estevens You may like to also visit: Air Change - www.air-change.com Solar Breeze - www.solarbreeze.com.au Venmar Air Exchange System - www.healthyhouse.com or www.ven-air.com.au Solar Vent - www.solarvent.com.au We have coem across a number of products that operate in this space. Not sure I understand how these units get installed. Could not find any examples of size of the ducts and how ducts are done to ensure air is changed in all rooms slowly but surely. If the ducts are too "invasive" to a 2 storey home structure feasibility of installing the whole system would be very low through a variation with a package home builder. Has anyone ever tried successfully or not installing such ventilation system through a variation with a package home builder? What would be an indicative cost of installing a unit like "air-change" or "Venmar Air Exchange System" in a retail situation for a 300m2 double storey house? Through one of these links led to very interesting information - http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/Publications/infosource/Pub/hrv/ventilation.cfm?attr=4#conventional. The following statements would be very true for anywhere - this material is Canadian: - "In recent years, more and more existing homes have undergone energy-efficiency improvements such as upgraded insulation, improved air sealing, the installation of energy-efficient windows, doors and heating systems, etc. As well, improved practices in new home construction have resulted in more energy-efficient and airtight conventional homes. In many of these homes, air infiltration through doors, windows and other openings in the building shell is too random and does not always provide adequate ventilation, which is just as important in a conventional home as in an R-2000 home. Even when there is an acceptable rate of air exchange, the fresh air may not be getting to the rooms where it is needed. As a result, mechanical ventilation is needed in many conventional homes in order to evenly distribute fresh air throughout the home and maintain a healthy living environment. An added benefit of mechanical ventilation systems is their capability to filter the incoming fresh outdoor air." - "Based on these figures, a ten-room home (unfinished basement, living room, dining room, family room, kitchen, two bathrooms, a master bedroom, and two bedrooms) would require 60 L/s of fresh air" (minor adoption/edits) - "the standards used in Canada, a minimum ventilation rate of 7.5 L/s (15 cfm) is required for each person in the home in order to provide a level of indoor air quality that most people would find acceptable." After browsing these links, one wonders if it just seems other countries are leading years ahead or it is actually happening...... Built a 2 storey house... hebel, proctor, pvc windows, aiphone, deck roofs, louver covered patio You can wash over existing pavers with 10% solution of water and hydrochloric acid, then wash off. The acid will provide for required bond key with new concrete. 1 36965 How do you remove one of these ceiling air con vents? And is it possible to disconnect the duct joined to the vent from inside the house, without going into the roof cavity? 0 5947 Hi all, sorting out the ducted air con for a 350sqm double story house. Does this placement sound reasonable to you? Also, I plan to have 6 zones I think. Living room… 0 0 |