Ducted Aircon-GEN III and Opal Smart Temp Control

Ancient Mariner · Nov 24, 2008 11:48 am

Krumlov

I am interested in you indicating that GEN III has an inverter as a compressor. As far as I can tell at the moment they do not.

I'm sure you're right. It's quite a while since I was comparing the 2 systems (the house took over a year to build and we were originally quoted before construction began) so my memory is probably faulty on GEN III.

Krumlov

Actron go to great lengths to point how much much "better" than inverter tech their compressors are!

Shrug. There's a lot of hype in all the manufacturer's claims but the basic claim for fully variable compressors makes sense: If your outdoor unit is operating from 0% of capacity to 100% on demand it has to be more efficient/economical than a unit that must continually pump out 100%. It also means a 'soft' start, which I understand also cuts down power usage.

Krumlov

As for 16KW it should be. We don't want to cool the whole house at once. Just the family/living/kitchen plus 2-3 other rooms (which are around 10m2 each). The GEN III guys believe that with the efficiencies gained from this type of system combined with this reduced amount of air-con'ed area means that 16.4KW should be enough.

Makes sense but I would wonder what happens to efficiency on those occasions when you do want the whole house cooled/heated. It's going to happen sometimes. I think I'd rather have a bigger unit than needed than make the external unit work harder.

Krumlov

Yes basically the same idea except GEN III does not have individual room controls. You can get a separate wireless remote (any number) if you want. Their concept is you set up the system with all the ON/OFF programs and then forget it and it does all the adjustments for you.

I'm a bit confused here. Do you mean you have no need for individual temperature control in each zone, i.e., you are happy to have a single temp set at the master controller? Different things suit different families I guess but I think that defeats the purpose of these systems. While (with Actron at least) you only have a +/- 3 degree range in which you can set temps individually in each zone that seems to me to be a critical benefit. In real life different people have different comfort levels, different rooms have a need for different temps -- cooler in a 'work' zone like a study, warmer in a living area for example. Being able to have a study at say 22 degrees and the living room at 24/25 makes a huge difference in comfort levels. I take the view that I don't live next to the master controller and I don't want to get up and adjust it just to change the temp where I happen to be. Or get into arguments about what's 'too cold, too warm, just right'.

More importantly, I don't want to have to rely on a system to be precise/smart enough to put sufficient air in individual zones to ensure an even temperature throughout the house. One of the big problems with 'standard' air-con systems is their inability to cope with maintaining even temps. A western facing room always ends up hotter than rooms on the south for example. Both GEN III and ESP Ultima are systems designed to get around that problem. My gut tells me that an individual sensor/controller in each room, a la Ultima, is going to be more accurate than any other way.

IFIRC the GEN III does have the ability to control temps in individual zones but with the addition of some 'extra' device/controller (VAT-V or something?). If that capability is not included in the price you mentioned then it doesn't seem as good a value as it did. I suspect you could do 8 fully controlled zones with Actron for about the same price.

Krumlov

Something else I just noticed after re-reading the product brochures. The Actron system not only has a variable compressor it also has a variable indoor fan. As far as I can tell the GEN III only has a 3 speed fan so this also should be a negative when compared to the energy efficiency of the Actron.

Yes, that's right. The Actron fans are fully variable. You can actually see it on the zone controls, which have a 'fan' graphic that slowly drops back from full to zero as the set temps are reached. Also, the zone fans are not controlled by ceiling motors but are fully controlled via the external unit. I think I've got that right. if I understand this system correctly that means that the fans are fully utilising the variable compressor system, which, as you say, indicates improved efficiency. It also means there is no noise from ceiling motors, not a big issue but helpful.

I sound like I'm a salesman for Actron hey. I'm not but I am impressed with it.

Krumlov · Nov 24, 2008 4:39 pm

Ancient Mariner

Makes sense but I would wonder what happens to efficiency on those occasions when you do want the whole house cooled/heated. It's going to happen sometimes. I think I'd rather have a bigger unit than needed than make the external unit work harder.

It comes down to cost for us. We are trying to keep it close to 15k so if we don't need a bigger compressor then we will skip it.

Ancient Mariner

Krumlov

Yes basically the same idea except GEN III does not have individual room controls.

I'm a bit confused here. Do you mean you have no need for individual temperature control in each zone,

No sorry, I mean there is only a temp sensor in each room. You can't turn on and off the zone or change the temp unless you are at the main controller or you have a remote.

I am waiting on a quote fro Actron now so we will see what happens!

TheBoatMan · Feb 16, 2009 11:35 pm

Some good points there.

GroovyOne · Apr 14, 2011 2:41 am

Just found this thread. I am talking to Adv'Air and Actron installers at the moment, so if anyone has any updates that would be great!

I think I am leaning towards Actron....... as Gen III tell me to use a fixed speed uniit and that fact is not making sense to me....

Krumlov · Apr 14, 2011 12:10 pm

[quote="GroovyOne"] if anyone has any updates that would be great!
quote]

We went with the Actron Air Ultima ESP in the end. We had some installation problems that were evetually sorted out over a year. Appears to me it was the Aircon company not Actron's fault. When we had issues Actron themselves turned up and fixed it up no fuss.

Otherwise the system works great. It strangely makes the house feel cool when the temp is still set quite high. We run it at 24-26C in summer and seems to be perfect.

GroovyOne · Apr 14, 2011 1:29 pm

Thanks Krumlov! Are you in Perth?

I am leaning towards the Ultima I think.... are the individual zone controllers big or small? Do you find you really make use of these controllers in each zone? I guess it must be nice to be able to turn the a/c on and off from the room you are in.

Krumlov · Apr 14, 2011 4:08 pm

GroovyOne

Are you in Perth?

are the individual zone controllers big or small? Do you find you really make use of these controllers in each zone? I guess it must be nice to be able to turn the a/c on and off from the room you are in.

No Brisbane

The zone controllers are the size of a standard light switch. We do not have individual controllers in the bed rooms. We only have a controller in the main living area, the study, and the rumpus. Our theory (apart from saving money) was that those rooms were likely to be occupied by people during the day who might like to control the temperature individually. The other five zones are the bedrooms which we figured everyone would be pretty much happy with the one temperature plus we didn't want kids playing with them. So in summary, the main controller does the five bedrooms, we have three other zone temperature controllers. Obviously, all eight rooms can be individually turned on/off at the main controller plus the other three areas can be turned on/off and have their temps individually controlled (though note this is +/2deg of main controller (I think!))

Krumlov · Apr 14, 2011 4:15 pm

[double post]

GroovyOne · Apr 14, 2011 11:20 pm

Thanks for that!

jndc · Aug 21, 2011 12:26 pm

am new to this forum site......actually, its my first ever forum site. please be kind !!

also i'm no mech engineer as you will see by some of my questions :-/

are planning 8 zone system for new house. energy minimisation, outdoor unit dimensions, and indoor/outdoor unit acoustics are the important factors to me, as well as being able to keep all occupants happy with varying temperature preferences. have been considering/researching Actron ESP ultima and Gen III myself prior to finding this thread, and yes, there is a lack of good information around on these systems. then i found thread above - answered many of my questions.

Krumlov

Any updates from those that have used the GEN III versus the Actron ESP Ultimate systems. I am still divided. I love the GEN III control interface but am concerned that the lack of a variable compressor may cost me some efficiency that I gain from the ESP system.

and

Krumlov

Something else I just noticed after re-reading the product brochures. The Actron system not only has a variable compressor it also has a variable indoor fan. As far as I can tell the GEN III only has a 3 speed fan so this also should be a negative when compared to the energy efficiency of the Actron.

i appreciate these quotes are from Nov 2008, but from my research now, Gen III has an option called Energy Save Technology (EST). it probably was not around then. EST gives ramping range of indoor fan and outdoor compressor from 10% to 100% - so that equals the ESP ultima capability.

GroovyOne

I think I am leaning towards Actron....... as Gen III tell me to use a fixed speed uniit and that fact is not making sense to me....

agree, and this quote is from April 2011, so now seems odd that Gen III would push you to a fixed speed unit when their own website trumpets the EST option (i assume this option was avail in April). i'd prod them on this one if its not too late

Perth_Euro

I too have been looking at the GEN 3.
Like the ones raised above, my only concern is the own brand compressor unit.

Does anybody have any experiance with these Advantage air units?

i see the thread seems to not endorse the Advantage air unit, but i don't know if that opinion would have changed in the last 3 years. can anyone offer advice ?

so my options would seem to be
1. actron air with ESP ultima
2. advantage air unit with gen III
3. external party inverter or digital scroll unit with gen III (eg temperzone, daikin)

is option 3 really an option ? how will i get full variable fan speed control (inside and outside) if the 3rd party unit only has 3 or 4 speed fan ? is gen III compatible with 3rd party units at all ? am i still going to need a "constant/dump zone" with option 3 ?

can anyone offer advice on the temperzone OSA230R outdoor unit, matched with temperzone ISD230K indoor ? its a 3 speed internal fan, is it compatible with gen III controls ? for its nominated output - circa 22kW - its a dimensionally small external unit at 1380 x 1250 x 450 - which is attractive - but does not seem right. the temperzone 17kW digital scroll unit is larger volume but lighter kg. ::dizzy::

can anyone offer suggestions for Sydney south side Actron agent/installer ? my local a/c contractor seems a little disinterested in anything but daikin, fujitsu, temperzone, and is not warming (excuse the pun) to any control system advice.

does daikin have its own individual zoned temperature control system ? i have the daikin cattledog and it seems silent on this, although seems to say its got all the fancy controls and options....."provide right level of comfort when and where you want it" - sounds like temp zone control ? , and says it has optional zone controllers - don't know if they just turn zones on or off, or if have individual temp control ? ::study::

can anyone offer advice ?

with Actron ESP ultima - say we wanted to supply 1 zone only - rumpus room - and wanted to close the door so we don't have to hear those rug rats - will closing the door affect the system operation (ie overpressure) or does the fan back off enough to compensate, without relying on a dump zone. Assume the door is undercut to allow some cycling of air. Or are we creating a problem in itself by closing the door (even if undercut) and therefore restricting the ability of the system to actually condition that space ?

Actron tech data says compressor "soft start" is optional - how does the compressor behave/perform without soft start compared with soft start ? does anyone know the cost of this option ?

Actron tech data says "demand respose capability (AS4755.3)" - can anyone tell me what this is and what it costs ?

if you've got this far, thanks.....

Krumlov · Aug 21, 2011 11:49 pm

I can only help with a few things. Yes you can close the door. It does pressurise a bit (the fan does NOT backoff) but the air will leak under the door out the windows etc... I mean to say a room is not airtight. The Actron does not have the dump zone because (as I understand it) it has the variable fan. We are happy with the Actron. You won't have a problem finding an installer, just ring Actron they are based in Sydney!

The GEN III might be good now. I liked the theory of their system which pulled in outside air at night if it was cool enough so that you didn't need aircon at all. Sounded like a great energy saving idea although I was a little worried about the ability of that part to overcome the pressure in the house. All their drawings showed air going out the windows which aren't going to be open if you started off with Aircon.

Personally I don't think bolt on systems to control someone elses ducted aircon is the way to go. I much preferred a system which was designed as multizone from the ground up.

jndc · Aug 22, 2011 10:10 am

thanks krumlov, i guess the fan backs off when temperature is reached, not as you say when pressure increases. i'll get Actron to verify that

i agree with you on the pressurisation of fresh air option. if i want fresh air, i'll turn off the unit, open the windows and let it blow in a la natural.

Krumlov · Aug 22, 2011 10:54 am

jndc

thanks krumlov, i guess the fan backs off when ...

I think it also decides what fan speed to use depending on how many zones are in use. For example we have one large zone for the living area and in ESP mode it never runs the fan above low no matter how hot or cold it is. I have to manually change it to high if I want the temp to be changed quickly.