Browse Forums Heating, Cooling & Insulation 1 Jan 14, 2007 10:31 pm Hi, I am looking for a new ducted system for my home. I am looking that 2 systems.
GEN III from Advantage Air which claims to be able to control the temperature in each room, effectively giving it one zone per room, that would mean 8 in my house. It claims to use special dampers and air distribution unit to achieve that. However they cannot supply a unit with inverter technology. Another system is similar to a tradition ducted systems and will integrate with any inverter system from say Daikin or Fujitsu. It uses a control system call OPAL-RC11 imported from Isreal to control the opening and closing of air dampers for each room hence also achieving the same result of different temperature for each room. Just wonder whether anyone has experience with either of the above system and would appreciate any comments. Re: Ducted Aircon-GEN III and Opal Smart Temp Control 2Jan 16, 2007 10:50 am newbie Hi, I am looking for a new ducted system for my home. I am looking that 2 systems. GEN III from Advantage Air which claims to be able to control the temperature in each room, effectively giving it one zone per room, that would mean 8 in my house. It claims to use special dampers and air distribution unit to achieve that. However they cannot supply a unit with inverter technology. although they will not supply with an "inverter" unit such as daikin, it is supplied with a Actron Air outdoor compressor which uses Digital ESP. This is actually more energy efficient than a inverter unit. An inverter compressor starts at 30% of max power then is variable depending on cooling/heating needed. An Actron Air ESP unit starts at 0% then is variable from there. hope the above is helpful. Post up what you decide on and how well the unit performs, the A Air III looks like a very nice unit. Re: Ducted Aircon-GEN III and Opal Smart Temp Control 3Jun 10, 2007 8:27 pm I've been looking at the advantage air system as well and am worried about their own branded compressor units.
are you saying that their technology is variable? I thought it was fixed. or is the unit you're describing above something different again? I'm also concerned about choosing a reverse cycle a/c to provide the cooling for the house due to heating performance on cold mornings. Anyone have some comment on this? Re: Ducted Aircon-GEN III and Opal Smart Temp Control 4Jul 05, 2008 8:11 pm It's an old thread but for anyone interested, a bit of an update, and an alternative to Advantage GENIII.
We've had ducted air twice before and have never been entirely happy with the zoning options. It's always seemed wasteful to me to cool 'sets' of rooms when you might only be using one (and a 'common' zone that always had to be on even if you weren't there), and being able to set just one temperature throughout the zones when different people/rooms have different comfort levels was also something I didn't like. So this time we were looking for a system that was very flexible. We looked very closely at the GENIII (it's very 'sexy' with that touchscreen controller and wireless) and had just about decided to go with it until the contractor showed us another possibility -- the Actron Air with ESP. After a lot of research we came to the conclusion that it was a lot more flexible than even the GENIII, and potentially more economical (there's a similar system imported from Italy). It works in a similar way to an inverter system but starts at 0 and is variable to 110%. Basically that means that every room can be its own zone and you can have just one room, even a single bedroom, on. That's actually pushing it a bit but it's not likely to be used for just one room very often. But the ability to just have 2 bedrooms on at night, or just the lounge during the day, seems to us to be the most efficient zoning. The other advantage is that by installing a controller in every room you can set individual temperatures in each room. There's a limited variance in temps (about 5 degrees) but it means that you can have a bedroom set to 19 degrees if you like a very cool room, while somebody else can have theirs set at 23/24 degrees. Same in living areas. At under $15k the cost was, surprisingly, a little less than the Advantage Air. Not knocking the Advantage Air, it's a really good system, but like another poster said, I wasn't that comfortable with using their own outdoor units. Re: Ducted Aircon-GEN III and Opal Smart Temp Control 5Jul 05, 2008 8:15 pm Oh yeah, almost forgot, you can also run it on either single phase or 3-phase. Re: Ducted Aircon-GEN III and Opal Smart Temp Control 6Sep 16, 2008 1:18 am I too have been looking at the GEN 3.
Like the ones raised above, my only concern is the own brand compressor unit. Does anybody have any experiance with these Advantage air units? Re: Ducted Aircon-GEN III and Opal Smart Temp Control 7Sep 16, 2008 8:15 am Ancient Mariner It's an old thread but for anyone interested, a bit of an update, and an alternative to Advantage GENIII. We've had ducted air twice before and have never been entirely happy with the zoning options. It's always seemed wasteful to me to cool 'sets' of rooms when you might only be using one (and a 'common' zone that always had to be on even if you weren't there), and being able to set just one temperature throughout the zones when different people/rooms have different comfort levels was also something I didn't like. So this time we were looking for a system that was very flexible. We looked very closely at the GENIII (it's very 'sexy' with that touchscreen controller and wireless) and had just about decided to go with it until the contractor showed us another possibility -- the Actron Air with ESP. After a lot of research we came to the conclusion that it was a lot more flexible than even the GENIII, and potentially more economical (there's a similar system imported from Italy). It works in a similar way to an inverter system but starts at 0 and is variable to 110%. Basically that means that every room can be its own zone and you can have just one room, even a single bedroom, on. That's actually pushing it a bit but it's not likely to be used for just one room very often. But the ability to just have 2 bedrooms on at night, or just the lounge during the day, seems to us to be the most efficient zoning. The other advantage is that by installing a controller in every room you can set individual temperatures in each room. There's a limited variance in temps (about 5 degrees) but it means that you can have a bedroom set to 19 degrees if you like a very cool room, while somebody else can have theirs set at 23/24 degrees. Same in living areas. At under $15k the cost was, surprisingly, a little less than the Advantage Air. Not knocking the Advantage Air, it's a really good system, but like another poster said, I wasn't that comfortable with using their own outdoor units. I think you made a wise choice... IMO the Actron system is much better than the AA system. As you point out having dump zones is a waste of energy and you're not the first person to question AA's own outdoor units. Re: Ducted Aircon-GEN III and Opal Smart Temp Control 8Sep 16, 2008 8:17 pm Thanks. Actually, it was installed a few weeks ago and we moved in to the new house last month so we've had a chance to test it out. It's terrific.
In some ways air-con is air-con and there's not that much to choose between some aspects of the various systems but I'm really impressed with the flexibility and efficiency of this Actron system. It's really accurate -- we've measured the real temps in various zones, including open-plan areas, and found it to be within as little as 0.1 of a degree of the set zone temp. Actron only claim 0.3. The zoning is wonderful. I was wrong about having just one room on pushing the limits of the system. We can have just one very small guest room on without problems. It's incredibly quiet compared to the Daikin 18Kw we had previously. The return air is almost silent and the external unit, well, once it's reached the set temps inside you really wouldn't know it was running unless you were standing next to it. But I think the most impressive thing is the way you can control/adjust every zone from in that zone. We never go near the master controller. It's great to be able to switch a zone on or off as you enter or leave, and even better to be able to adjust the temps individually. We just leave the master on about 23 degrees and set the temp to suit each room +/- 3 degrees (between 20 to 26 degrees in other words). Great flexibility. It's a clever system. We had a power outage the other day and it's fascinating to watch it automatically rebalance all the zone dampers when power is restored. I honestly can't recommend it highly enough -- and it's not often you can say that about something that's basically a digital device that's fully made in Australia and is competing with Japanese & Chinese product. I think a lot of the effectiveness of ducted air comes down to the supplier and how well they design/install your individual system. I think the air-con people we used (Brendan Summers Air Conditioning, Sunshine Coast) were exceptional. Immensely careful in the design and installation. Did a great job and deserve a public rap. Re: Ducted Aircon-GEN III and Opal Smart Temp Control 9Oct 21, 2008 10:54 am Hi,
How effective is the heating system of the Actron ESP system? I live in Melbourne so will need that a bit in winter. I heard it is electrical and my understanding is that gas heating is more effective. Tushar Re: Ducted Aircon-GEN III and Opal Smart Temp Control 10Oct 21, 2008 8:57 pm Well, yes, it's 'electrical' -- despite all the fancy gizmos it's still basically a heat pump.
Can't comment on the relative merits of gas heating vs ducted air-con systems, never had gas heating. All I can say is that the heat mode works as well as the cool mode on our system. Heats a room fast, evenly and quietly. Re: Ducted Aircon-GEN III and Opal Smart Temp Control 11Nov 12, 2008 10:44 pm I am after ducted refridgerated to about 17 squares of living. Was quoted about $12,000 from the builder.
Just wanting to know if anyone has any idea on the costs etc. Not after the best model, but definately want ducted refridgerated cooling. I am thinking about getting it installed after the build, probably mid next year, when they might not be as busy. Re: Ducted Aircon-GEN III and Opal Smart Temp Control 12Nov 13, 2008 10:02 pm just an update to my earlier post, we ended up getting the GEN III system installed. Why did we go with gen III?, great question.. it was the ability to control the temps in the romms individually. Time will tell if this is just a gimmick or whether it actually works.
It was a very difficult decision, and im still nervous if i made the right one. (havent used it yet as the weather has been great) The install was carried out very professionally, with the various "teams" working together and around each other to have the whole thing installed in a day easily. The controller is very nice, easy to use and fully programable in terms of naming zones, schedules etc. Very intuitive to use too. Other thoughts: unfortunatley they damaged the ceiling in a room (10cm long crack) It was properly repaired by a gyprocker the following day. The section was removed and a new sheet installed (after seeing the way my builder did things it was nice to not just get someone skim coat it and say she'll be right) So even tho it would have been better to not damage it, their repsonse was excellent. After they had finished the install, the ducting guy took my out and showed me how the lid on the outdoor unit had been slightly scratched. Something i wouldnt have noticed or have been concerned about. Without prompting he too replaced this the following day. (so far it doesnt sound like a positive experiance, but it was no big deal to me) The last thing that went wrong was the control screen died about 4 days after the install. This was quite concerning at the time however late on a fri afternoon I was able to speak to someone directly who knew how things worked and ran me through how to reboot the screen. This did fail, but a replacement screen was installed on the monday. So all in all there were a few hicups along they way, however their ability to deal professionally with the issues and the finished quality of the install means that it was no big deal. (if it failed when it was 45degrees, i couldnt get any help or they were not helpful, that will be a dif story) I havent had the chance to run it yet, however in testing and setup, it worked very quietly and produced heaps of cold air. time will tell. Anyways thats experiance Re: Ducted Aircon-GEN III and Opal Smart Temp Control 13Nov 13, 2008 10:02 pm just an update to my earlier post, we ended up getting the GEN III system installed. Why did we go with gen III?, great question.. it was the ability to control the temps in the romms individually. Time will tell if this is just a gimmick or whether it actually works.
It was a very difficult decision, and im still nervous if i made the right one. (havent used it yet as the weather has been great) The install was carried out very professionally, with the various "teams" working together and around each other to have the whole thing installed in a day easily. The controller is very nice, easy to use and fully programable in terms of naming zones, schedules etc. Very intuitive to use too. Other thoughts: unfortunatley they damaged the ceiling in a room (10cm long crack) It was properly repaired by a gyprocker the following day. The section was removed and a new sheet installed (after seeing the way my builder did things it was nice to not just get someone skim coat it and say she'll be right) So even tho it would have been better to not damage it, their repsonse was excellent. After they had finished the install, the ducting guy took my out and showed me how the lid on the outdoor unit had been slightly scratched. Something i wouldnt have noticed or have been concerned about. Without prompting he too replaced this the following day. (so far it doesnt sound like a positive experiance, but it was no big deal to me) The last thing that went wrong was the control screen died about 4 days after the install. This was quite concerning at the time however late on a fri afternoon I was able to speak to someone directly who knew how things worked and ran me through how to reboot the screen. This did fail, but a replacement screen was installed on the monday. So all in all there were a few hicups along they way, however their ability to deal professionally with the issues and the finished quality of the install means that it was no big deal. (if it failed when it was 45degrees, i couldnt get any help or they were not helpful, that will be a dif story) I havent had the chance to run it yet, however in testing and setup, it worked very quietly and produced heaps of cold air. time will tell. Anyways thats experiance Re: Ducted Aircon-GEN III and Opal Smart Temp Control 14Nov 22, 2008 12:08 pm Any updates from those that have used the GEN III versus the Actron ESP Ultimate systems. I am still divided. I love the GEN III control interface but am concerned that the lack of a variable compressor may cost me some efficiency that I gain from the ESP system.
I have also been thinking about the Fresh Air option for the GEN III system but don't know about the usefulness of it. It was pitched to us as a way to leave the aircon on all night and it will just change over to fresh air when the outside air temp falls but I am concerned that you won't get much airflow if all the windows are closed (ie the house will become pressurised). The brochure shows that fresh air coming in the roof and out the windows which makes sense. Looking for some more thoughts. Re: Ducted Aircon-GEN III and Opal Smart Temp Control 15Nov 22, 2008 6:22 pm Krumlov Any updates from those that have used the GEN III versus the Actron ESP Ultimate systems. I am still divided. I love the GEN III control interface but am concerned that the lack of a variable compressor may cost me some efficiency that I gain from the ESP system. Not too likely that you'll find anyone who has actually used both GEN III & Actron systems. But I think you answer your own question: a variable compressor (with controllers that use it intelligently) has to be both more efficient and more economical than an inverter. Krumlov I have also been thinking about the Fresh Air option for the GEN III system but don't know about the usefulness of it. It was pitched to us as a way to leave the aircon on all night and it will just change over to fresh air when the outside air temp falls but I am concerned that you won't get much airflow if all the windows are closed (ie the house will become pressurised). The brochure shows that fresh air coming in the roof and out the windows which makes sense. Can't really see the 'benefit' of using the fresh air system as it was pitched to you. If it's warm enough to want the air-con on at night it's more likely that you'll want it on all night, not part of it. I assume the rationale was economy but that doesn't stack up. With the ESP Ultima (and I assume the GEN III), once the required temperature is reached it essentially just goes into standby mode and comes back on briefly through the night to maintain that temp -- it's only working just hard enough to achieve that. On that same issue, I can't remember if the GEN III works in a similar way but I do like the Actron's ability to give you a wide range of settings on the controller. For example, when it's set on it's most efficient/economical mode (ESP High/Med/Low/Cool) it will cool areas down very fast. However, it's also using the intelligent microprocessors so you get fluctuations in air flow coming through the vents, and therefore some changes in noise levels. While these are very minor, if you are a light sleeper or someone who hates any noise in a bedroom it is noticeable. The ability to set it on Continuous/Low/Cool is great for bedrooms. And it seems to me to be almost as efficient as ESP (provided you have sensors/controls in each room) because although it's running continuously it's at a very low level (maybe 10% for one bedroom) and the fans just drop back to almost zero once the set temp is reached. Very, very quiet and unobtrusive in a bedroom. BTW, the Actron pretty much has a fresh air system built in. No extra cost. Just set the system to fan only and open the windows (you're right BTW, the windows have to be open). Doesn't use the external unit. Works a treat. On a side note, I was also interested in the comments of Perth_Euro regarding installation/service for GEN III. We've had our Ultima system 4 months now and had one very minor issue that arose on a Saturday. The service guys were here 2 hours after we called -- and it takes them over an hour just to get here. Re: Ducted Aircon-GEN III and Opal Smart Temp Control 16Nov 22, 2008 10:43 pm So AM I can assume you are very happy with the Actron Air System? I am also very interested in the fact that you had your house fitted out for $15k. Can you tell me how many zones that was and the size of the compressor?
The GEN III people seem very keen to get some sales on the board before the end of November. I have been quoted a 10 zone system with their 16.4KW compressor for around $16k. That seems to be a very good price to me and therefore I am very interested in it. My reading of the advantage air website suggests that their compressors have an ECON mode but I still have to confirm that and ask why they don't think they need a variable compressor as part of their system. It is a tough one. GEN III has the all the advantages bar the compressor. That is, opposed blade zone dampers, very cool touch screen interface, up to 32 zones, variable fan. It may come down to price in the end. As an aside there is a distinct lack of discussion about either of these two systems on the net! Re: Ducted Aircon-GEN III and Opal Smart Temp Control 17Nov 23, 2008 10:30 am Krumlov So AM I can assume you are very happy with the Actron Air System? Very happy. As I've said here before, think it's great. Krumlov I am also very interested in the fact that you had your house fitted out for $15k. Can you tell me how many zones that was and the size of the compressor? Six zones, all with their own controllers. External unit is 18KW/single phase. Krumlov I have been quoted a 10 zone system with their 16.4KW compressor for around $16k. That seems to be a very good price to me For 10 zones? Certainly seems so but it depends on the ducting. The zone controllers are a very minor part of the total cost. Must be a huge house to need 10 individual zones. If you actually need all 10 zones then that may make your decision easier -- IFIRC the ESP Ultima is limited to 8 zones. [quote="Krumlov"It is a tough one. GEN III has the all the advantages bar the compressor. That is, opposed blade zone dampers, very cool touch screen interface, up to 32 zones, variable fan. It may come down to price in the end.[/quote] Don't quote me but I believe that it is feasible to have a GEN III interface but to use an Actron Air compressor in the system. I think that depends on the installer/system design but there's no reason why not that I can see. Yes, the GEN III wireless and touch screens are cool and we were tempted but in the end it was that interface that, in part, decided us on Actron. I use wireless networks extensively for all kinds of other stuff and decided that the potential for issues between more than one network was enough to go with Actron's hard wired controllers/zone control. Re: Ducted Aircon-GEN III and Opal Smart Temp Control 18Nov 23, 2008 5:02 pm Ancient Mariner For 10 zones? Certainly seems so but it depends on the ducting. The zone controllers are a very minor part of the total cost. Must be a huge house to need 10 individual zones. If you actually need all 10 zones then that may make your decision easier -- IFIRC the ESP Ultima is limited to 8 zones. Not that huge a house but a lot of rooms and since the GEN III could do it thats how they quoted (5 bedrooms, study, dining, rumpus, kitchen/family and living). We can live with eight zones (you are correct ultima max 8 zones, GEN III max 32 zones!) by combining kitchen/family with living and study. Ancient Mariner Don't quote me but I believe that it is feasible to have a GEN III interface but to use an Actron Air compressor in the system. [snip] Yes, the GEN III wireless and touch screens are cool and we were tempted but in the end it was that interface that, in part, decided us on Actron. I use wireless networks extensively for all kinds of other stuff and decided that the potential for issues between more than one network was enough to go with Actron's hard wired controllers/zone control. I will be asking about the compressor next time I speak to the sales guy. For exactly the reason you mentioned I have specified all wired to eliminate any interference issues. How easy do you find the keypad controller to set up what you want to do with the system. Specifically do you use timers or more advanced functions or do you just turn it on and off? Re: Ducted Aircon-GEN III and Opal Smart Temp Control 19Nov 23, 2008 9:22 pm Krumlov Not that huge a house but a lot of rooms and since the GEN III could do it thats how they quoted (5 bedrooms, study, dining, rumpus, kitchen/family and living). We can live with eight zones (you are correct ultima max 8 zones, GEN III max 32 zones!) by combining kitchen/family with living and study. Ah, okay, lots of separate rooms. I can see why GEN III is tempting. When you're trying to achieve maximum control not much point in combining rooms. Krumlov I will be asking about the compressor next time I speak to the sales guy. For exactly the reason you mentioned I have specified all wired to eliminate any interference issues. I suspect that if you're told it can't be done with an Actron variable compressor combined with a GEN III interface it will be more 'political' than technical. We were originally quoted for a GEN III system (with their inverter) but subsequently discovered we couldn't get 3-phase power. At the time Advantage Air had no single phase large enough (BTW, is 16KW big enough for that size system?) so the installer switched to an Actron variable compressor but kept the GEN III interface. In the end Actron introduced the ESP Ultima so it became academic for us. However, don't know if the Actron zone limit is dictated by the compressor or the controllers. Krumlov How easy do you find the keypad controller to set up what you want to do with the system. Specifically do you use timers or more advanced functions or do you just turn it on and off? I wouldn't call any of the functions particularly 'advanced'. We use 2 AM7 wall controllers (the 7-day programmable ones) plus an Ultima Zone Control in each room. We're here almost all the time so I haven't needed to use any of the timer functions so far but they're pretty standard stuff -- 2 programmable events for each day of the week. The wall controller's pretty good. Easy to use. Just cycle through the functions until you get the one you want. A programmable touchscreen might be a bit easier but with any air-con the functions are pretty much fixed. For example, IFIRC the GEN III allows you to program the zone names via the touchscreen. Nice, but reality is you're only changing the names, not actually altering the zoning. The ESP Ultima uses pre-printed labels to do the same thing (they give you sheets and sheets of them). Basically we've found we hardly ever use the wall controllers except to switch the system on/off and to change from ESP to Continuous as required. We mostly use the zone controls because they're conveniently placed in each zone. They allow you to switch the zone on/off and adjust the zone temperature, which is all you need during operation. Things I like about the controller/zone controls: The ability to adjust temperatures in each zone. We have it set to +/-3 degrees variance. The ability to actually adjust that temperature range at the wall controller yourself, without the need for an engineer (they frown on it a bit but it's simple enough) The ability to set maximum/minimum set temperatures, i.e, set it so nobody can be silly and set temps like 16 degrees or 30 degrees plus The ability to check the room temperature in every zone. Each zone control will tell you what the actual room temperature is compared with the set temp. It's very accurate too. The ability to set desired temperatures in half degree increments. It makes a difference because these multiple zoned/controlled systems are really accurate, to about 0.1 degrees. No more +/- 4 or 5 degree differences in various rooms as with the one or two zone systems so it's quite useful to be able to set say 23.5 degrees instead of just 24. The way the system rebalances itself after power cuts. Things I don't like: The way the controllers will automatically switch to one zone if you switch all the zones off from the zone controllers. You have to have at least one zone on with any air-con, so, if you've say a study and a bedroom on and both occupants happen to leave those rooms and switch off 'their' zone the system will automatically default to switch one zone on, the living area usually. There's no way around it really, but I wish it had a way to warn you that it's doing that. With these 'personalised' systems it's easy for people to forget to check the main controllers to make sure that everything is off. But that's probably just the way we live and not an issue for most people. The GEN III probably has much the same features. Oh yeah, nothing to do with controllers but the thing I really, really like -- there's no dump zone with the ESP Ultima. I always hated seeing all that cold air go to waste. Re: Ducted Aircon-GEN III and Opal Smart Temp Control 20Nov 23, 2008 10:28 pm Ancient Mariner [snip] We were originally quoted for a GEN III system (with their inverter) but subsequently discovered we couldn't get 3-phase power. At the time Advantage Air had no single phase large enough (BTW, is 16KW big enough for that size system?) so the installer switched to an Actron variable compressor but kept the GEN III interface. [snip] I am interested in you indicating that GEN III has an inverter as a compressor. As far as I can tell at the moment they do not. It appears to be just a basic compressor with a multi speed outdoor fan, they make no mention of any inverter style capability whereas Actron go to great lengths to point how much much "better" than inverter tech their compressors are! As for 16KW it should be. We don't want to cool the whole house at once. Just the family/living/kitchen plus 2-3 other rooms (which are around 10m2 each). The GEN III guys believe that with the efficiencies gained from this type of system combined with this reduced amount of air-con'ed area means that 16.4KW should be enough. Ancient Mariner The GEN III probably has much the same features. Yes basically the same idea except GEN III does not have individual room controls. You can get a separate wireless remote (any number) if you want. Their concept is you set up the system with all the ON/OFF programs and then forget it and it does all the adjustments for you. Possibly a bit wishful but I have friends that have a "Smartzone" system and they rarely use the room controls, I think we would be similar so I am comfortable with the one touchscreen and a single remote. Having said that I was interested to see that your family basically does the opposite! I don't know if GEN III can set temps in 0.5 degree increments though maybe only 1 degree?! Something else I just noticed after re-reading the product brochures. The Actron system not only has a variable compressor it also has a variable indoor fan. As far as I can tell the GEN III only has a 3 speed fan so this also should be a negative when compared to the energy efficiency of the Actron. 4 1877 To my understanding early saw cuts are to control shrinkage cracks, so doing them now would be pointless. Control joints may reduce ugly cracking during periods of soil… 3 9863 Hi group, have some damage to the door frame and skirting board. It's a side door to the laundry area. Only has a security door. I had a termite inspection (note drill… 0 5059 |