Browse Forums Landscape & Garden Design 1 Jan 22, 2010 10:32 am Hi Fu and other experts Years ago I had thought that subsurface irrigation for large lawns was the way to go - but now I'm hearing more about pop-up sprayers. I was chatting with Nav this morning (while watching is a/c installers) and he mentioned that a big irrigation supply place recommended pop ups rather than sub-surface. So I'm trying to think of pros and cons, costs differences etc - so far what I've come up with: Sub-surface * Use less water - I've heard 30% of lawn irrigation from sprinklers can be lost to evaporation - truth or myth? * Water goes direct to the roots where it's needed * Never have to worry about walking on the lawn after you've watered - no wet feet (ok - that's not a big thing) * Needs a RPZ backflow device - in NSW apparently that device needs to be registered with the water authority and inspected by an approved inspector annually * Can use with water restrictions I have no idea when it comes to pop ups - my main questions: 1. Is it more or less expensive to install vs subsurface? 2. Is a RPZ backflow device also required? 3. Can I use it with water restrictions? What about if it's connected to recycled or tank water? And the more important question I suppose - if I'm using Empire Zoysia - do I even need an irrigation system? (In Sydney) After 4 years - we're in! Re: Turf irrigation - pop ups vs subsurface vs no irrigation 2Jan 22, 2010 12:09 pm Quote: * Use less water - I've heard 30% of lawn irrigation from sprinklers can be lost to evaporation - truth or myth? For bigger areas, gear drives are best and fairly efficient. They do mist a bit though. Domestically, MP rotators are the best choice. These act like a pop up, they fit a pop up body from your irrigation shop but the head has a different way of working to the usual pop up sprays. It puts streams of water out and rotates them. These streams lose very little water to misting and deliver the water to the soil at a far slower rate than pop ups normally do. This means far less run off which is also going to effect efficiency. (wetting agents play a major part in this) They are no where near as effected by wind drift either. Pop ups. Well these are hard to compare because there are very responsible ones and there are absolute water wasting junk available and they look the same to the untrained eye Get them from your local irrigation shop and you are 90% safe in getting a regular pop up that is water efficient. There are places selling lots of pop ups that have no means of regulating the volumes of water emitted and that should not be allowed, sometimes they are even sold as being "professional" products. please select a type that has a pressure compensation disc. it is a small rubber disc inside it that compensates for water pressure so no matter what, it will always emit a certain calibrated amount of water per minute. A fine spray though and that is subject to wind drift. Then there are microsprays which should be banned because they are so bad at delivering water to the soil. Very good at delivering it to the air though. these are best suited to commercial applications inside tunnels or shade structures where heat and humidity are needed. Then there are the sprinklers and soaker hoses For the money, MP's are the go, especially in WA where we are able to use restricted irrigation and almost every home has it. This is most commonly attached to scheme water or ground water via a bore. RPZ valves must be used when using a subsurface system under turf and it is connected to the scheme water. This is to prevent any fertilisers, hebicides, fungicides etc used on the turf contaminating yours and the communities scheme water supply. So the importance of an RPZ valve is critical in controlling the integrity of the domestic water supply. This is why it must be checked by a licensed plumber annually and also be installed by a licensed plumber. They cost $$$$$$$$$. They are very different to check or back flow valves. Subsurface and MP's are best used with a high flow pressure reducer which regulates water pressure to around 30psi. If these are not used, the flush valves will run for the duration the irrigation is on. MPs will begin to mist and water efficiency is compromised. the high flow water pressure reducer/ regulator Here are some of the types mentioned. MP rotator Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Gear drive pop ups (these are Toro) the body... Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ and the nozzle showing the pressure compensation disc on the bottom.. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ These are the nozzles that you buy separately and attach to the body the colours indicate distances they throw. microsprays Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ soaker hoses Subsurface drip irrigation Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Now the water efficiency figures for the various products are sourced from training I did with John Colwill and Steve Peck who are leading experts in water efficiency and irrigation in Australia. Subsurface is 90% efficient Surface drip is 80-85% effiecient depending on type used. Gear drive type is 65-75% efficient MP type is 55-65% efficient Microsprays are less than 50% efficient and in most cases far far less than that. Soaker hoses are less than 40% efficient. Re: Turf irrigation - pop ups vs subsurface vs no irrigation 3Jan 22, 2010 12:48 pm The use of above ground irrigation with grey water and black water systems is something that must be checked first with your states Health dept. In the case of subsurface irrigation being used these are the types. Black pipe is for black water or recycled water systems Mauve or purple pipe is for grey water Brown which is generally for scheme or potable water. Green which is for rainwater Re: Turf irrigation - pop ups vs subsurface vs no irrigation 4Jan 22, 2010 12:57 pm Now MP systems are way cheaper than subsurface. Not as efficient but still pretty good. You only have to use an RPZ valve where the recycled water or grey water system is connected to your domestic water supply in some way. That is to the best of my knowledge. The irrigation association can better answer that I guess but that is my understanding. Can you use certain types of irrigation with water restrictions? Well the irrigation association and Sydney water should be able to answer that for you. Re: Turf irrigation - pop ups vs subsurface vs no irrigation 5Jan 22, 2010 1:13 pm THANKS FU! Quote: Can you use certain types of irrigation with water restrictions? Well the irrigation association and Sydney water should be able to answer that for you. Here is the Sydney Water Information:
Recycled water, bore water and water used for testing fire systems, fire fighting and related activities are exempt from the Water Wise Rules. Water from rainwater tanks is also exempt if it is not topped up from Sydney Water’s supply. Customers who need to establish a new lawn may use sprinklers or watering systems at any time of the day for 14 days from the date of installation. After the first 14 days, sprinklers and watering systems may only be used before 10 am and after 4 pm daily. What were your thoughts on going no-irrigation once established for an Empire Zoysia lawn? After 4 years - we're in! Re: Turf irrigation - pop ups vs subsurface vs no irrigation 6Jan 22, 2010 1:41 pm If that is the case I'd be installing a MP system up to mains water. Far cheaper and no RPZ. Best value answer and still maintains a level of efficiency. recycled water, go subsurface using the black pipe from Netafim. Re: Turf irrigation - pop ups vs subsurface vs no irrigation 7Jan 22, 2010 2:49 pm Thanks Fu - I'll have to check but I think the garden tap is only recycled water! They use recycled water on golf courses - so I wonder if it's ok for lawns in a MP rotator situation rather than drip? The recycled water use FAQ produced by the water authority says to use potable water for fruit trees and veg gardens. I don't plan on eating my lawn - but possibly (future) kids could be rolling around on it. Maybe connecting the lawn irrigation to my water tank might be the go (10,000L) - I'll have to get the irrigation guys to do some calculations on how much water would be required. After 4 years - we're in! Re: 8Jan 22, 2010 9:12 pm the topic was; Turf irrigation - pop ups vs subsurface vs no irrigation Surely on the east coast (I think this thread started in Sydney), no irrigation is better with the correct lawn choice. only use it when you need to, not for the sake of getting rid of grey/black/green/purple water? Let your lawn toughen up, don't pamper it, a water controller is a good lawns worst enemy. The hardiest turf on my farm is the area I don't have any irrigation connected or used. Re: Turf irrigation - pop ups vs subsurface vs no irrigation 9Jan 23, 2010 12:43 am Good call grasshopper. It's tough even with my Victorian background to get my head around a world with no irrigation. Sydney does get more summer rain than us and your soils do hold more water than ours. (even Sydney sands do) Less water and good soil prep means deeper and stronger root growth Here we can not envisage getting a lawn through a summer with out irrigation! I pm'd someone about looking after lawn with a hose when you need to and the type of nozzle you use has a huge effect on the lawns health. A bit late so might follow it up tomorrow for you. Re: Turf irrigation - pop ups vs subsurface vs no irrigation 10Jan 23, 2010 6:26 am Thanks Fu and Grasshopper! Off to the search function... After 4 years - we're in! Re: Turf irrigation - pop ups vs subsurface vs no irrigation 11Jan 23, 2010 9:41 am Stonecutter and Fu This thread is an interesting read. looking forward to the next bit. Love the pics too. I have no idea about retic etc so am going to be using this thread as my starting guide. Glad you asked the questions Stonecutter. Re: Turf irrigation - pop ups vs subsurface vs no irrigation 12Jan 23, 2010 12:19 pm kekkez, for you it will be an easy one (having seen the property in the photos and being a fellow Sandgroper ) . 13mm Netafim Techline AS for garden beds, Mp rotators for lawn areas. turf to use, EZ as 1st choice and Palmetto or SW for the second. Trueblue is the mob to get from in Busso. Re: Turf irrigation - pop ups vs subsurface vs no irrigation 13Jan 24, 2010 7:24 am Down South Turf for SW/Pal Re: Turf irrigation - pop ups vs subsurface vs no irrigation 14Jan 24, 2010 10:09 am You couldn't help yourself Grasshopper, but yes it is another viable option for our Homeone Sou'Westers. Re: Turf irrigation - pop ups vs subsurface vs no irrigation 15Jan 24, 2010 3:56 pm yes Fu, a VERY viable option especially with minimal retic Re: Turf irrigation - pop ups vs subsurface vs no irrigation 17Feb 19, 2010 7:09 pm If a landscaper installs it how it is supposed to be installed then it is impossible for it to have issues. If some clown installs it, then hold on to your hats because you are in for a ride. I also know of one place that still does not sell all the parts to have a healthy and self maintaining system which is counter productive to water efficiency. There is also a particular type that gets issues so that is why you only hear me mention one type. Netafim. Please do not get those recycled rubber things confused with subsurface. They don't count as irrigation as they are grossly water inefficient. Why? Well what regulates the water flow? How do you stop contamination of the domestic water supply if you use pesticides in the garden? How do you control water flow? Shall I go on Netafim, and get it installed how it should be and not how some clown says it is done You'd be amazed at how many homes have the flush valves that won't turn off. They go and replace a perfectly good flush valve. They do that because a water pressure regulator/ reducer has not been used. Have they used a grey vacuum breaker valve? Was it installed how it should be? What subsurface product was used? Is there a back flow valve of suitable standard fitted? Are the lines looped into a circuit to even the water pressure out? Was it installed under turf incorrectly? It is the single most water efficient method of applying water, hands down. It is also the most maintenance free method. Re: Turf irrigation - pop ups vs subsurface vs no irrigation 18Feb 19, 2010 7:10 pm They clog up? It's crap They don't. Otherwise some of the most important food growing areas of the world would loose millions and even billions of dollars and we'd all starve. That is the biggest use of it Then some muppet gets their hands on some "subsurface irrigation" from somewhere with only 50% of what is needed to install it and hello, it doesn't work viewtopic.php?f=19&t=29834 Re: Turf irrigation - pop ups vs subsurface vs no irrigation 19Feb 19, 2010 7:14 pm stonecutter1309 Here is the Sydney Water Information: [list]Watering, including with sprinklers and irrigation systems, is allowed any day before 10 am and after 4 pm to avoid the heat of the day. (from potable water sources) Recycled water, bore water and water used for testing fire systems, fire fighting and related activities are exempt from the Water Wise Rules. Water from rainwater tanks is also exempt if it is not topped up from Sydney Water’s supply. http://www.sydneywater.com.au/Water4Life/WaterWise/ If only Sydney water understood water efficiency better. If only the east coast understood the efficiency of irrigation. Maybe they need to employ Dr John Colwill and listen to some of the other water efficiency experts. They should establish a water roster even if the dams are full. People shouldn't be able to water that often and in the soils you have even more so Israel, west coast USA and WA all have an in depth understanding of the benefits of irrigation. Hmm aren't we all very dry? Funny how we all don't say to handwater because it saves water Re: Turf irrigation - pop ups vs subsurface vs no irrigation 20Feb 19, 2010 11:05 pm Hi Fu I have been reading alot about your advice on soil preperation and have seen myself doing some of the thing s that make your toes curl. I am in WA and am about to get handover of my new house. I had in my mind to excavate up to 300mm of the useless sand and truck in a good soil with some clay base in it. Coming from a rainforest/dairy darm area in SE QLD this type of sand is pretty disappointing to grow things in. My intention was to excavate the sand truck in some soil to spread for the first 100mm, lay subsurface irrigation (potentially a Netafim product siutable for use with bore water), Install popup spinker system to establish the lawn and helf water in nutriens and finally fill the final 200mm with soil prior to laying turf (a buffalo of sorts). I agree with a comment you made in one thread about investing up front woth quality soil/Irriagtion will make less impact after it is all established. What do you think of this strategy? Would it be a "balanced way of irrigation" if $$ is not a deciding factor? I recently went through a similar renovation and move scenario when updating our family home. 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