Browse Forums DIY, Home Maintenance & Repair 1 May 15, 2015 9:54 pm Hi everyone, I was directed to this forum from a Whirlpool member. I've got an issue with the house (South Eastern suburb in Melbourne) and would really appreciate some input from the more experienced and (perhaps) experts in the field. We've got a door from our garage that opens up to a path the garden. The door is now inaccessible as part of the wall around it has cracked. It's sunken and is jamming the door. There are also cracks around the bricks outside the house and the internal plaster wall as well. Additionally, we have an en suite with a window that faces the path mentioned above. The frame around this window is now so tight that trying to shut it feels like you are going to cause the entire window to break out of the wall (hopefully I managed to describe it properly). I've since contacted the builder and they have since sent a structural engineer out. I've recently received the reports back. What I'm after is really second opinions for those in the know about the findings of the report. And advise on how to proceed i.e. is it a builder's fault or is it something that I just have to fix, what's the best way to go about doing it etc. If more information from the report is required, I'd gladly share it but I don't want to make things unnecessarily long. I will share the recommendations from the structural engineer for now and the words of the builder as well based on the report. Engineer's Recommendations 6.1 Based on the conclusions of this forensic investigation report, this office provides the following recommendations to rectify and prevent further distress to the structure.... 6.1.1 Primary Recommendations 6.1.1.1 It is recommended that the plumbing services are checked by a suitably qualified plumber. The testing should be include CCTV and hydrostatic testing to both the stormwater and sewer service pipelines. The report should be provided to this office for review. 6.1.1.2 Following the results of the above testing, it may be necessary to conduct soil moisture testing and/or Dynamic Cone Penetrometer (DCP) testing. 6.1.2 Secondary Recommendations 6.1.2.1 Measures should be put in place to ensure abnormal moisture conditions are not present around the building at this site due to poor landscaping. To prevent future distress to the building the home owners should be made aware of the FFSV and CSIRO guides to foundation maintenance. 6.1.2.1.1 Ideally, an impermeable moisture barrier should be installed to the left perimeter, and sloped away from the building in accordance with the BCA. Prior to the installation of the barrier, the below soils should be graded away from the dwelling to a minimum fall of 1:50 over the first 1.5m from the building edge. The soils to the remainder of the perimeter should be graded away from the dwelling at a minimum. 6.1.2.2 A drainage system should be installed to collect the surface water runoff from the above proposed barrier and be connected to a legal point of discharge to prevent water penetrating the soil around the building; however if this is not possible, an adequate subsurface drainage system should be designed around the footings for the same purpose. (Refer to Appendix D and BCA Regulations). A drainage design can be provided by this office. 6.1.2.3 The overflow drain to the hot water service system should be connected to the stormwater drainage system as soon as possible. 6.1.3 Once the above recommendations have been completed it is recommended that the residence is monitored periodically every 6 months for the next 12 to 18 months to determine if the site conditions have reached equilibrium. If any significant distress is noted during this period this office should be contacted for further advice. When the builder sent through the report to me, they said two things that stuck out to me: 1. "Also as per below specifications which were listed in the contract landscaping was done by others and was not carried out by <BUILDER COMPANY NAME>, therefore we are not accountable for the cracking which was caused by the landscaping at the property. " 2. "As discussed please find the attached compliance certificate for your property to say that all the appropriate drainage has been installed." Now I am not interested in finger positioning and getting in a heated argument. Ideally I just want to know: 1. If the engineer's recommendations are sound? And if so, are there any recommendations for who to contact to get those recommendations done. 2. Is the builder really not at fault? And therefore I'll unfortunately have to pay my way to fix all of these issues? I've included some pictures of the cracks as well. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uel0hh6i462f ... eOk3a?dl=0 Lastly, thank you so much for your time. Re: Seeking advise on house cracks 2May 15, 2015 10:30 pm The builder is blaming your landscaping before your drains have even been checked. I would get your own engineer to do a report for impartiality and follow the recommendations. Builders will always blame your landscaping as a given. But that damage looks pretty extreme to be caused by some landscaping. Surely some more people will be along soon to provide some advice Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: Seeking advise on house cracks 3May 15, 2015 10:37 pm Ponzu The builder is blaming your landscaping before your drains have even been checked. I would get your own engineer to do a report for impartiality and follow the recommendations. Builders will always blame your landscaping as a given. Surely some more people will be along soon to provide some advice Hi Ponzu, thanks for that. I honestly found it strange that the builder's email immediately touched on the engineer's secondary recommendation and 'ignored' the primary recommendation. In speaking further with the Maintenance Advisor (basically the same person who had written that email to me), she mentioned that if the plumber came back with findings that prove that something was amiss by the builder they would be more than happy to get the original plumber to fix it up. In any case I personally found it odd. But like I said I just want to do the right thing, find out what's wrong, find out how to fix it properly and permanently. Ideally it would be nice if it wasn't out of my pocket and if we can prove that the onus is on the builder great. I will wait to hear what the others here say too. If getting another engineer is the recommended next step to take, I can already see myself asking for recommendations (and it would appear that I'd need to fork out that cost too). Thanks again Ponzu. Re: Seeking advise on house cracks 4May 16, 2015 7:47 am It seems your house has serious structural issues from ground movement. The engineering report is essentially correct but the KILLER is not in what it says but what it doesn't. It doesn't say that builder should have done all the items under secondary recommendations 1-3 as part of compliance before handover. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Seeking advise on house cracks 5May 16, 2015 8:32 am building-expert It doesn't say that builder should have done all the items under secondary recommendations 1-3 as part of compliance before handover. Hi thanks for the input. Just so I am clear, are you saying the above because the engineer should have done it? Just to point out as part of my contract the landscaping was marked as done by others. And this is what the builder's email was playing on. http://screencast.com/t/yyYUdthIYpu If the engineer should have explicitly stated that the builder should have done the secondary recommendations as part of compliance before the handover AND the builder is saying that it's the landscaper's responsibility, where do I go from here? Thanks again. Re: Seeking advise on house cracks 6May 16, 2015 11:51 am I am a little confused by the information provided by you compared with the 'Engineers" report. You seem to be suggesting that the affected areas are due to soil shrinkage which would normally be consistant with reactive soils drying out. (If this is the case then IMHO the initial foundations were not adequate to support the house) The 'engineers' report seems to suggest that the damage is as a result of 'Soil Heave' that is reactive soils increasing in moisture and expanding. This could be due to blocked/broken drains or sewers (but unlikely if the pipes are flowing freely). Alternatively landscaping could be absorbing water which then seeps down to the foundation level. Getting an independant report is probably the best option. The Harder You Try - the Luckier You Get ! Web site http://www.anewhouse.com.au Informative, Amusing, and Opinionated Blog - Over 600 posts on all aspects of building a new house. Re: Seeking advise on house cracks 7May 16, 2015 12:04 pm The primary recommendations requires the collection of relevant data, no doubt a costly exercise, but I fear there will be data lacking/missed over the complete time line build,unless the cause & effect is straightforward. I am not sure if another independent engineer will come up with other recommendations,BTW, Forensic Engineering and time dependant simulations are costly and you will need a local engineer specialist. I will follow your post with interest. Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Seeking advise on house cracks 8May 16, 2015 12:19 pm justme15 building-expert It doesn't say that builder should have done all the items under secondary recommendations 1-3 as part of compliance before handover. Hi thanks for the input. Just so I am clear, are you saying the above because the engineer should have done it? Just to point out as part of my contract the landscaping was marked as done by others. And this is what the builder's email was playing on. http://screencast.com/t/yyYUdthIYpu If the engineer should have explicitly stated that the builder should have done the secondary recommendations as part of compliance before the handover AND the builder is saying that it's the landscaper's responsibility, where do I go from here? Thanks again. What you don't seem to realise (and many others) is that house building is more than engineering. Yes , engineer has done his report and on the face of it I do not disagree with it but engineer is not qualified to talk about compliance (unless he has qualification in Building Surveying) and he won't, just as he will not be bothered about your contractual issues. Why would he point the finger at who is paying him? Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Seeking advise on house cracks 9May 16, 2015 4:03 pm bashworth I am a little confused by the information provided by you compared with the 'Engineers" report. You seem to be suggesting that the affected areas are due to soil shrinkage which would normally be consistant with reactive soils drying out. (If this is the case then IMHO the initial foundations were not adequate to support the house). Hi Bashworth not sure what you mean by above. I am not trying to suggest anything on my part. I'm just trying my best to explain what is visible on the property (i.e. the cracks) as well as provide what the engineer (engaged by my builder) has included in his report. I apologise if I said something incorrectly. Essentially I am just trying: 1. To make sense of the report, 2. To confirm if what has been recommended is indeed the way to go. 3. To ensure that the builder isn't just trying to exempt themselves from something that they should have done. 4. To make sure that I am not spending money that I shouldn't be spending. Thanks for chiming in. If you require more details from the report, I'd be more than happy to provide it. Re: Seeking advise on house cracks 10May 16, 2015 4:05 pm StructuralBIMGuy The primary recommendations requires the collection of relevant data, no doubt a costly exercise, but I fear there will be data lacking/missed over the complete time line build,unless the cause & effect is straightforward. I am not sure if another independent engineer will come up with other recommendations,BTW, Forensic Engineering and time dependant simulations are costly and you will need a local engineer specialist. I will follow your post with interest. Hi StructuralBIMGuy, thanks for your input. Costly exercise is what I was afraid of but I understand if it needs to be done. But as mentioned if it's not something that should be coming out of my own pocket, naturally I won't want to. Re: Seeking advise on house cracks 11May 16, 2015 4:08 pm Quote: What you don't seem to realise (and many others) is that house building is more than engineering. Yes , engineer has done his report and on the face of it I do not disagree with it but engineer is not qualified to talk about compliance (unless he has qualification in Building Surveying) and he won't, just as he will not be bothered about your contractual issues. Why would he point the finger at who is paying him? Hi thanks for the input. I am just trying to understand the next steps. Should I proceed to get a plumber in and do the tests as recommended in the report? Or should I be engaging another engineer for a second opinion? In terms of compliance I hear you but I was simply sharing what the Builder came back to me with when I questioned about who should be taking care of the plumbing tests. They came back saying the plumbing work is compliant as indicated by the certificate. Thank you for taking the time to help. Re: Seeking advise on house cracks 12May 16, 2015 4:15 pm I just thought it'd be best to include more information from the report Conclusion 5.1 Upon completion of our investigation, it is our opinion that the most likely cause of distress to the residence can be attributed to Differential Movement due to abnormal moisture conditions. This opinion is based on; 5.1.1 Our observations during the time of our investigation, such as, but not limited to; 5.1.1.1 Location and nature of the observed distress 5.1.1.2 Doors and windows jamming 5.1.2 The existing landscape around the property 5.1.3 Floor level survey conducted by this office 5.1.4 Documentation provided to this office 5.1.5 Our knowledge of the soil geology for sites within this region of Melbourne. 5.2 The underlying soil classification from the soil report provided is Class "M" in accordance with AS2870-1996 and thus is moderately reactive to changes in moisture contents. Abnormal moisture conditions will cause the soil to shrink and swell with decreases and increases in moisture respectively. Based on the evidence to date it appears that this site is suffering from an abnormal increase of moisture to the front of the dwelling. This increase in moisture is causing the soil to swell and moving the building in turn. 5.3 Based on the geology of this site and the supplied structural engineering slab plan provided to this office it is evident that the slab design has been adequately designed for the site classification. 5.4 Based on the floor level survey and information obtained to date we do not believe that the trees located within the council land to the North of this residence are having a negative impact on the dwelling. 5.5 Primary Contributing Factors 5.5.1 This office is of the opinion that there is a potential fault or break within the plumbing services located on this property. This would have to be confirmed through plumbing investigation to determine if this is the case. 5.5.2 It is the opinion of this office that the landscaping around the property is not sufficient to drain runoff water away from the building footings particularly behind the garage. The owner has also advised that during heavy rainfall that the area behind the garage is typically subject to flooding. 5.6 Secondary Contributing Factors 5.6.1 The hot water service unit currently discharges water from the overflow drain directly onto the ground. This over a period of time may cause an abnormal moisture condition in the area. 5.7 The damage witnessed during our investigation does not pose any risk to the structural integrity of the building. The damage on this site is category 0-2 in accordance with AS2870-2011 Residential Slabs and Footings - Construction, (refer to Appendix C). Re: Seeking advise on house cracks 13May 16, 2015 6:50 pm justme15 bashworth I am a little confused by the information provided by you compared with the 'Engineers" report. You seem to be suggesting that the affected areas are due to soil shrinkage which would normally be consistant with reactive soils drying out. (If this is the case then IMHO the initial foundations were not adequate to support the house). Hi Bashworth not sure what you mean by above. I am not trying to suggest anything on my part. I'm just trying my best to explain what is visible on the property (i.e. the cracks) as well as provide what the engineer (engaged by my builder) has included in his report. I apologise if I said something incorrectly. Essentially I am just trying: 1. To make sense of the report, 2. To confirm if what has been recommended is indeed the way to go. 3. To ensure that the builder isn't just trying to exempt themselves from something that they should have done. 4. To make sure that I am not spending money that I shouldn't be spending. Thanks for chiming in. If you require more details from the report, I'd be more than happy to provide it. You originally made the comment that part of the building had sunk. What the engineers report seems to say is that the other side of the building has 'risen' as a result of soil moisture (which means that what appears to have sunk is actually stayed the same position while the other part of the house has stayed in the same position. That seems to mean the recommendations now make more sense. The Harder You Try - the Luckier You Get ! Web site http://www.anewhouse.com.au Informative, Amusing, and Opinionated Blog - Over 600 posts on all aspects of building a new house. Re: Seeking advise on house cracks 14May 16, 2015 7:12 pm Quote: You originally made the comment that part of the building had sunk. Oh ok. I think in my mind it appeared that it has sunk as the wall had dropped down and jammed the door. My bad for poor explanation. Sorry about that. Thanks for taking the time to clarify. Re: Seeking advise on house cracks 15May 16, 2015 8:34 pm justme15 I am just trying to understand the next steps. Should I proceed to get a plumber in and do the tests as recommended in the report? Or should I be engaging another engineer for a second opinion? What you need is someone who knows the job to work it out properly, has qualifications, the track record and does not give rats who he takes on to get you a result. 1 Establish defects 2 Establish liability 3 Estimate of cost to fix. 4 Expert evidence in VCAT Your engineer will only do 1 above That costs money so be prepared to spend. If you wait for builder to spend money you will grow old waiting, enjoy the run around. Just a dose of brutal reality, from my experience. By the way you did not mentioned anything about your own independent stage inspections during build and whether anyone checked levels for compliance. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Seeking advise on house cracks 16May 17, 2015 4:22 am Hi justme15
This sounds like a standard report used in the west and northern suburbs of melbourne for a heave situation. But they have used it for a "m" site.I really find it amazing how the engineer can make a comments about the cause of the problem without doing a bore hole and moisture samples.In the south eastern suburbs of Melbourne at the moment tree damage by soil drying and shrinkage is causing unexpected problems. "m" type soil is a lot less susceptible to slab heave . Re: Seeking advise on house cracks 17May 17, 2015 8:06 am justme15 StructuralBIMGuy The primary recommendations requires the collection of relevant data, no doubt a costly exercise, but I fear there will be data lacking/missed over the complete time line build,unless the cause & effect is straightforward. I am not sure if another independent engineer will come up with other recommendations,BTW, Forensic Engineering and time dependant simulations are costly and you will need a local engineer specialist. I will follow your post with interest. Hi StructuralBIMGuy, thanks for your input. Costly exercise is what I was afraid of but I understand if it needs to be done. But as mentioned if it's not something that should be coming out of my own pocket, naturally I won't want to. It sounds like the builder is fairly confident in that they have done the right thing. It now falls back on the land development, geotech and engineering.Do you have all the documentation and geo test results? You will need to document all crack patterns, are your floor finishes over the slab hard surface or soft, etc,etc Obviously the more you can do/gather/check will help your confidence/decision making in the future actions you take. Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Seeking advise on house cracks 18May 17, 2015 8:15 am StructuralBIMGuy g.Do you have all the documentation and geo test results? You will need to document all crack patterns, are your floor finishes over the slab hard surface or soft, etc,etc Obviously the more you can do/gather/check will help your confidence/decision making in the future actions you take. I don't have any the geo test results. From the report it seems like the builders have it and have passed that on to the engineers. But it seems that these were the same engineers that did the geotechnical report in the first place. 2.3 The following documentation has been provided to this office: 2.3.1 Geotechnical Report by Intrax Consulting Engineers (Job No. 6344, Dated 1/11/2007). 2.3.2 Structural Engineering Drawings by Intrax Consulting Engineers (Job No. 6344, Dated 10/09/2007). Re: Seeking advise on house cracks 19May 17, 2015 8:32 am insider Hi justme15 Is that a Intrax report? can you give a subrurb Hi Insider, it's really good to hear from you. Yes this is an Intrax report. And the suburb is Clayton South. After reading your comments regarding the lack of boring and moisture samples taken, I had another look in the report. The information below is probably the reason why none was done. Preliminary Information 2.1 The house is located to the West and the front of the house and vehicle access faces East onto Botanic Dr, (Refer to figure 1, Appendix A). 2.2 The existing dwelling is a double storey brick veneer residence, founded on a concrete waffle slab. The roof is of timber truss construction with concrete roof tiles. 2.3 The following documentation has been provided to this office: 2.3.1 Geotechnical Report by Intrax Consulting Engineers (Job No. 6344, Dated 1/11/2007). 2.3.2 Structural Engineering Drawings by Intrax Consulting Engineers (Job No. 6344, Dated 10/09/2007). Discussion/Comments 4.1 We were not requested and have not undertaken a soil report for this site. A geotechnical investigation report has been provided to this office and we note the following; 4.1.1 The soil profile for this site has been classified as Class "P" in accordance with the Australian “tandard "AS2870-1996". The soil report makes reference to Class "M" soils with the absence of any abnormal moisture conditions such as fill or trees etc. 4.1.2 Class "M" soils contain moderately reactive clays in accordance with the Australian Standard "A“ 2870" for residential footings. 4.1.3 Soils of this type are volatile in nature, i.e. they are subject to large volumetric change which is a result of unbalanced soil moisture content variations. 4.1.4 These clays shrink and swell with changes in moisture with resultant characteristic surface movement which is defined as "the movement of the surface of a reactive site caused by moisture changes from characteristic dry to characteristic wet condition in the absence of a building and without consideration of load effects." 4.1.5 We note that the soil report provides a "Ys" range of 20mm to 40mm for this site. This represents the characteristic surface movement, for this type of geology to be in the range 20mm to 40mm even in the absence of any abnormal intrusions, such as trees, ingress of moisture, etc. 4.1.6 Below is an extract from the Australia Standard AS 2870-1996 on the expected soil movements under normal conditions. http://screencast.com/t/ClMfNj7VJzg 4.2 We note that we have sighted the structural documentation extracts provided to this office. We have not undertaken a detailed review of design check; however, we note that the overall depth of the footings are 310mm with the corresponding reinforcement for the site classification. 4.3 A floor level survey was conducted during this inspection. (Refer to Appendix B). 4.3.1 The Temporary Bench Mark (TBM) for the floor level survey was located at the corner of the laundry wall. 4.3.2 All levels observed are a relative level difference to the above TBM in mm with allowance made for different floor finishes. 4.3.3 Based on the floor level survey conducted by this office, the overall deviation in level across the buildings footprint was approximately 47mm. 4.3.4 We note that the low l-ying (I had to put the hyphen in as without it, this word is a forbidden text) levels were recorded to the left of the dwelling within the Living room at approximately 28mm below the TBM location. 4.3.5 The peak floor levels were recorded to the front of the dwelling at approximately 19mm above the TBM location. 4.4 The landscaping to the perimeter of the dwelling consists typically of permeable toppings; including soils, grass, mulch and pebbles. This allows moisture to permeate through the soils within the foundation zone and may cause an abnormal moisture condition. 4.4.1 We note that there are a number of large trees located with the council land to the North of the property which range from approximately 10-20m in height. 4.5 During the time of the investigation, the majority of the distress was observed to the internal plasterboard linings to the central region of the dwelling particularly within the dining room area. We also note that there was distress observed to the external brickwork within the garage, Re: Seeking advise on house cracks 20May 17, 2015 8:58 am How can it be a independent report if the original soil report was done by the same company?. Certain parts of clayton are on highly reactive swamp deposit which are H1.It is also important to know if the trees where there originally and allowed for in the slab. design Hi everyone! 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