Browse Forums DIY, Home Maintenance & Repair 1 Oct 13, 2013 9:44 pm Hi all, We are considering a new property purchase and the watcher catchment tank doesn't appear to be connected to anything other than an outside tap and a pump (which in turn is not connected to anything). Aren't they normally hooked into the house water system and used for toilet and laundry water? What does doing so cost, is it difficult to do once the house is already completed? Thanks, Ian Re: Water Catchment Tank Question 2Oct 14, 2013 12:33 am It depends on what the State's regulations required at the time the house was built. You need to post the area and the house build date if you want an informed answer. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water Catchment Tank Question 3Oct 14, 2013 8:31 am SaveH2O It depends on what the State's regulations required at the time the house was built. You need to post the area and the house build date if you want an informed answer. Sure, this is in Newport 3015 and the house was built as far as I know at least, 6 months ago. Re: Water Catchment Tank Question 4Oct 14, 2013 8:36 am Does the House have solar hot water?? If so the tank may have been place just for garden water. Also how big is the tank. If it is only 2000 litres than you may find there is not much point connecting it internally. Re: Water Catchment Tank Question 5Oct 14, 2013 9:13 am B STAR Does the House have solar hot water?? If so the tank may have been place just for garden water. Also how big is the tank. If it is only 2000 litres than you may find there is not much point connecting it internally. It's 2100 litres and there are no solar panels on the house afaik. Re: Water Catchment Tank Question 6Oct 14, 2013 9:46 am ismithers B STAR Does the House have solar hot water?? If so the tank may have been place just for garden water. Also how big is the tank. If it is only 2000 litres than you may find there is not much point connecting it internally. It's 2100 litres and there are no solar panels on the house afaik. If there is not a solar hot water panel on the roof (which is different to PV solar panel), then by rights the water tank needs to be connected to the toilets as a min. I have seen though someone get away with this by using a heat pump hot water unit. So in summary for vic you need either a solar hot water unit or a 2000+ litre water tank connect to the toilet to meet 5/6 star energy rating. Re: Water Catchment Tank Question 7Oct 14, 2013 10:26 am Victorian homes are required to have either a 2,000+ litre rainwater tank connected to all toilets for sanitary flushing or a solar hot water service. WATER TANKS The rainwater tank must harvest a minimum roof area of 50 sq m. Note that this usually requires a minimum of 2 downpipes to be harvested. Large numbers of Victorian homes fail to meet this requirement due to aesthetics subjugating function but are wrongly passed as being compliant with the required 6 star standard regardless. The worst I have seen was a tank that harvested 12 sq m of roof. The system is also required to be fitted with either an automatic or manual mains water switching device as required by the National Plumbing Code but most new homes are fitted with the more expensive automatic option without consulting the home owner. The following text is found on page 4 in the Victorian Building Authority (VBA) linked further below. The VBA replaced the former Victorian Building Commission and the Victorian Plumbing Industry Commission earlier this year. "ALTERNATIVES TO RAINWATER TANKS As an alternative to the installation of rainwater tanks an RBS may consider the use of grey water treatment systems or dual water reticulation and water recycling systems connected to toilet flushing systems as an approach to approve a 6 Star rated house design. There are no DTS provisions for the design of Greywater treatment systems that can be connected and used for toilet flushing or dual water reticulation and water recycling systems. Therefore compliance can only be achieved by formulating an Alternative solution that complies with the performance requirement of the BCA and submitting to the RBS for consideration." Note that DTS means Deemed To Satisfy. http://www.buildingcommission.com.au/__ ... 011_55.pdf The above link also states: Where a solar water heater system is the chosen compliance option and a reticulated gas supply is available for connection to the building, the system must be a gas boosted solar water heater. A list of solar water heater systems which meet the requirements is available on the Sustainability Victoria website. What all this means is that unless the house has an approved Solar Hot Water system OR the house is connected to a recycled water supply that complies with the performance requirement of the BCA and approved by the RBS as an alternative solution for sanitary flushing in lieu of the rainwater tank requirement, then the house is not compliant with the 6 star standard. B STAR I have seen though someone get away with this by using a heat pump hot water unit. This is interesting but a heat pump does use electricity. Maybe someone can provide a link if one exists. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water Catchment Tank Question 10Oct 21, 2013 9:38 pm This is easy to answer if on site and able to inspect but impossible otherwise. What "internal facilities" are you referring to? If the house does not have a solar HWS or recycled water connected to the toilets, it is hard to imagine that it has been given Victorian 6 star compliance given that the water tank has not been connected to the toilets. The ease of connection post build depends on many things; the position of the tank in relation to the toilets and laundry for one. Some cisterns are also not plumbed to the outside wall. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water Catchment Tank Question 11Oct 24, 2013 12:17 pm If it's not the sort of thing which can be answered then not to worry. I don't really know what is involved, so perhaps the best thing would be to see if I can find someone to do an on-site inspection and then give us a quote free of charge. Re: Water Catchment Tank Question 12Oct 24, 2013 2:14 pm I would get the 6 star issue looked at first so that the position is clear. The 6 star standard was introduced on 1st May, 2011, 2 years before the house was finished. If connecting the tanks to a toilet or laundry is at your discretion, then it comes back to the position and distance of the pump in relation to the end use facilities. SANITARY FLUSHING The plumbing regulations state: "PART 7—REQUIREMENTS FOR WATER SUPPLY WORK 10 Definitions In this Part— automatic or manual interchange device means a device that by way of manual or automatic means can alternate between varying water sources; Requirements where rainwater used for sanitary flushing. (1) If a reticulated water supply from a network utility operator is connected, or proposed to be connected to a building where a rainwater tank is installed for the purpose of sanitary flushing, an automatic or manual interchange device that allows alternate use of water from the rainwater tank or the reticulated water supply must be installed to ensure that there is a continual supply of water for sanitary flushing”. Most plumbers (and builders) will wrongly tell you that you have to have an automatic device. Don't allow yourself to be ripped off. Examples of automatic mains water switching devices are Davey RainBanks, Onga WaterSwitches and several other makes. Automatic devices are the most expensive to buy and have plumbed. They can also be very expensive if something goes wrong. Read the threads below for examples of this: http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-re ... #r40187292 http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-re ... ?t=1654175 Commercial manual mains water switching devices are similar to the product linked below or a plumber can simply install a couple of manual valves and check valves to prevent cross contamination. http://www.mainrain.com.au/mainrain-features.html You can also get a tank top up device fitted. These deliver a limited amount of water to the tank once it reaches a preset low level. http://www.apexvalves.co.nz/plumbing/apex/rainaid.html A toilet can also be supplied from a tank by diverting a PEX line directly from the pump to a second cistern valve. This is the method I favour. It is also the neatest and cheapest. The easiest way to do this is to fit two cistern valves to the cistern, one supplied by the pump and the other supplied by the mains water. To plumb this, you... Have two Fluidmaster 400UK063 cistern valves fitted to the cistern. http://www.haron.com.au/fluidmaster_products.html Remove the plastic 'pig's tail' flow restricter from the bottom of the shank of the cistern valve that will be supplied by the pump. Also remove the standard (mains water pressure) seal from under this valve's top cap and replace it with the optional very low pressure (242LP071) seal. Make sure that the short float arm is kept pushed up when twisting the cap off (as per the instructions). Reducing the flow path pressure means that the pump is no longer working against restrictions designed for mains water pressure. The pump then connects directly to the rainwater cistern valve via PEX pipe. This is easy to install and gives you two isolation valves on the toilet wall that qualify as manual switching devices. http://www.pic.vic.gov.au/__data/assets ... sterns.pdf A plumber will be able to advise as to the practicality of retro fitting. This mostly depends on the position of the toilet inside the house and the location/distance from the pump. The same goes for the laundry. If you plumb to a toilet that has the cistern close to the outside wall and use the dual valve method, it is a simple, neat and quick installation. The Fluidmaster cistern valves cost $20 each in Bunnings and the low pressure seal is about $2.70. EDIT: Replaced Main Rain error 404 with another link. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water Catchment Tank Question 13Feb 08, 2014 12:34 pm I've been doing some reading and yes came across the 6 star issue (I thought it was 5 star only) and will be chasing that up. I also noticed in the contract that there is a certificate for plumbing work and one of the things certified is the rainwater tank installation. I am lead to believe that this makes the certifier responsible for any unfinished work or incomplete installation. So will be pursuing that too. Will post back findings. Re: Water Catchment Tank Question 14Feb 08, 2014 5:58 pm Could depend on how long it took to build the house in regards to the 5 to 6 star transition re the 1st May, 2011 change. This is the first thing you need to know and what applies from what and when. This isn't my area but someone will know the answer. Did the water tank plumbing certificate state that it was connected to sanitary plumbing? A new home having a rainwater tank connected to sanitary plumbing has the house internal plumbing done during construction. Does the house have exposed pipes near the tank? 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water Catchment Tank Question 15Feb 08, 2014 7:03 pm SaveH2O Could depend on how long it took to build the house in regards to the 5 to 6 star transition re the 1st May, 2011 change. This is the first thing you need to know and what applies from what and when. This isn't my area but someone will know the answer. Did the water tank plumbing certificate state that it was connected to sanitary plumbing? A new home having a rainwater tank connected to sanitary plumbing has the house internal plumbing done during construction. Does the house have exposed pipes near the tank? Hi there, no the certification doesn't say that it is specifically connected to the house. It certifies the installation (not sure what the means in detail) but I'm pretty sure at the very minimum it should mean that the tank has had it's seals drilled out and the taps can actually deliver water? Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ The certification in the contract has listed rainwater catchment tank and then a number next to it (I think it's 99) and a circle around it. The relevant text above that says: "Circle the appropriate number/s below and insert any installation/appliance/fixture details in the Installation Details section:" There are is no text in the Installation Details section. The relevant text below that says: "I certify that the above plumbing work complies in all respects with the plumbing laws as defined in Part 12A of the Building Act 1993. Please tick as appropriate: The plumbing work was carried out by me or under my supervision. I have inspected and tested the work started by another licensed practitioner. Any necessary further work was carried out by me or under my supervision." It has a giant tick next to it. I don't know how he tested the rainwater tank... must be an interesting test. Yes there are some pipes near the tank, I believe the green indicates they are for rainwater? Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Re: Water Catchment Tank Question 16Feb 10, 2014 4:46 am I am waiting on some advice about the certificate etc. Probably Tuesday before I get the complete picture. The house has been plumbed for the tank, this will be to the toilets. I have mentioned the required mains water switching devices earlier. The first photo shows a 3/4" ball valve. Note that the tank outlet is 1". You should use a 1" valve and poly pipe to supply the pump. Are there any other outlet mouldings? There are usually 2 on those tanks. When the pump's suction hose is connected to the tank outlet, make sure that the hose has a straight length that respects (preferably) a minimum 8 IDs connected to the pump. Some pump manufacturers will specify a straight length that is longer than this. If using Blue Line poly pipe, just be aware that it is measured OD, not ID. The ID of 25 mm Blue Line poly is about 21 mm. In other words, make sure that the person/plumber who connects the suction hose (between the tank and the pump) to the pump does not connect the hose to an elbow fitted to the pump's suction side. To do so can cause cavitation that will lead to early pump failure. Have any downpipes been diverted to the tank? For Vic 6 star compliance, you have to harvest a minimum of 50 sq m of roof area, this will require two downpipes. Note that numerous new houses sold don't meet this criteria despite their certification. The worst I have come across is 12 sq m! Does the tank have an overflow pipe connected? It looks like the tank is a slimline. What sort of base has it got? It looks like bricks on top of small stones. Is there an outside power point? I take it that the pump is external to the tank. Does it have a pump cover and is the cover exposed to the sun? Quite a few pumps have cooked their pressure switch capacitors during the heat when the plastic pump cover has been exposed to the sun and the cover has acted like a hot house. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water Catchment Tank Question 17Feb 10, 2014 1:54 pm SaveH2O I am waiting on some advice about the certificate etc. Probably Tuesday before I get the complete picture. SaveH2O The first photo shows a 3/4" ball valve. Note that the tank outlet is 1". You should use a 1" valve and poly pipe to supply the pump. I unscrewed this from the tank outlet, I can't imagine a 1" being able to fit at all, as it was pretty tight. I will check later on to see if it is 1". SaveH2O Are there any other outlet mouldings? There are usually 2 on those tanks. Yes there is a second one lower down. That one connects to the pump, this one shown in the photo is just to tap off water manually I suppose? SaveH2O When the pump's suction hose is connected to the tank outlet, make sure that the hose has a straight length that respects (preferably) a minimum 8 IDs connected to the pump. Some pump manufacturers will specify a straight length that is longer than this. If using Blue Line poly pipe, just be aware that it is measured OD, not ID. The ID of 25 mm Blue Line poly is about 21 mm. OK thanks, I'll check this tonight too. SaveH2O Have any downpipes been diverted to the tank? For Vic 6 star compliance, you have to harvest a minimum of 50 sq m of roof area, this will require two downpipes. Note that numerous new houses sold don't meet this criteria despite their certification. The worst I have come across is 12 sq m! Yes there is a downpipe that is diverted, but only one. Oddly enough just a short 2m away is a whole other part of the roof that is drained straight into the ground! I'll get that investigated. How does one measure the roof area that is harvested? SaveH2O Does the tank have an overflow pipe connected? Yes it does. SaveH2O It looks like the tank is a slimline. What sort of base has it got? It looks like bricks on top of small stones. Yes it's a 2100L tank, probably slimline but I'm not familiar. I'll snap a shot and post later. In regards to the base, I will need to check and post back too as I can't recall. I have a feeling it's likely not got any base. SaveH2O Is there an outside power point? Not one, but two of them. SaveH2O I take it that the pump is external to the tank. Correct. SaveH2O Does it have a pump cover and is the cover exposed to the sun? Quite a few pumps have cooked their pressure switch capacitors during the heat when the plastic pump cover has been exposed to the sun and the cover has acted like a hot house. There is no cover no and it will be exposed to the sun. The vendor said that the pump he purchase should not require any cover as it was bought specifically as it can withstand the environment. ---- I contacted the VBA today and they mentioned that both the 5 star and 6 star requirements must have a rainwater catchment tank of minimum 2000L connected to all toilet flushing facilities as a minimum (assuming no solar hot water). Since the 5 star standard came into effect in 2004, there is no escaping that this property doesn't meet those standards when it should have. Re: Water Catchment Tank Question 18Feb 10, 2014 6:39 pm Ok, the 3/4" ball valve isn't for the pump...more for washing hands, connecting to a hose that supplies a gravity fed drip hose etc. It is shown fitted into a 1" F x M poly fitting, the tank moulding is 1". The pump's draw outlet sounds like it could be fitted very low; how far from the bottom of the tank would the valve be at the valves lowest point? Also, is the tank honeycomb shaped? Those are hard to clean. It is critical that poly slimlines are located on a solid flat base. If any part of the tank is located on stones, it needs to be fixed. The installation will also not be as per the manufacturer's installation instructions. If you have just one downpipe diverted and you have either the standard 100 x 50 mm rectangular or 90 mm round downpipes, the install doesn't comply with the 6 star standards as the harvested roof area will be much less than the mandated 50 sq m. To calculate the roof harvest area, you need to determine where the gutter's high points are. Just to explain, eaves gutters are installed in a W pattern; the downpipe is installed at the lowest point and the gutter's highest points either side determine the maximum roof area compliance as well as the gutter slope. The gutters often have a visible join at the high point but the high point can also be determined by doing a simple flow test. It is then just a matter of calculating the roof plan catchment area. For practicality, the tank should harvest more than one downpipe anyway. Let's say that if the single downpipe is harvesting 30 sq m of roof, the average yield for Melbourne would be calculated as average annual rainfall x roof area (sq m) x .85 (allowance for yield loss due to evaporation etc). This gives us 660 x 30 x .85 = 16,830 litres per annum or only 46 litres per day. There are different ways of diverting additional water to a tank, the trick is to make sure that the inflow capacity doesn't exceed the overflow capacity during a storm. I have a product I invented that allows you to harvest (not divert) any number of additional downpipes to a tank without risk of it over topping. If you can divert three or more downpipes, then great. The pump will need a cover, particularly if it has an electronic pressure switch. A good wooden cover with some recirculation holes at the back is best if possible. A decent size cover will also let you store the hose etc. I didn't think that the mandatory rainwater tank or solar HWS regulation went back to the 5 star standards. I don't deal with building regulations though. I'll double check that but of course it makes no difference to your situation. It is possible that only the plumbing (house pipe) connection has to be made as per your situation due to the possibility of theft of switching devices etc from a new unoccupied house. That is my query re the certificate and 6 star compliance at the moment. It could also be something that isn't regulation exempt but overlooked nevertheless due to the possible theft factor. Did you ask the VBA as to whether the certificate is issued only for a fully installed and connected tank? They might be non committal on that one! 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water Catchment Tank Question 19Feb 10, 2014 9:34 pm SaveH2O Ok, the 3/4" ball valve isn't for the pump...more for washing hands, connecting to a hose that supplies a gravity fed drip hose etc. It is shown fitted into a 1" F x M poly fitting, the tank moulding is 1". The pump's draw outlet sounds like it could be fitted very low; how far from the bottom of the tank would the valve be at the valves lowest point? It is right at the bottom. Not a great photo, but: Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Also, is the tank honeycomb shaped? Those are hard to clean. From a brief image search I would say it's one of these: Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ SaveH2O It is critical that poly slimlines are located on a solid flat base. If any part of the tank is located on stones, it needs to be fixed. The installation will also not be as per the manufacturer's installation instructions. As per the above photo, it's located on stones - the entire thing. SaveH2O If you have just one downpipe diverted and you have either the standard 100 x 50 mm rectangular or 90 mm round downpipes, the install doesn't comply with the 6 star standards as the harvested roof area will be much less than the mandated 50 sq m. Yes a single rectangular downpipe. I might ask someone to inspect it and provide a detailed report on this and other issues that do not comply. SaveH2O The pump will need a cover, particularly if it has an electronic pressure switch. A good wooden cover with some recirculation holes at the back is best if possible. A decent size cover will also let you store the hose etc. OK, I imagine one can acquire a cover like that from Bunnings I guess? Or is that something I can chase the vendor for. Actually that raises a question - simply because something doesn't comply with the manufacturers installation instructions, does that make it something I can pursue the vendor to comply with? Or is it just something that I bought and should have known about and so now it's just tough luck. I'm having difficulty figuring out what things *must* be fixed in order to comply, and which things should be fixed, but there is no legal requirement to do so. SaveH2O I didn't think that the mandatory rainwater tank or solar HWS regulation went back to the 5 star standards. I don't deal with building regulations though. I'll double check that but of course it makes no difference to your situation. Well don't quote me as this is heresay but that's what I was told. Let me know if you find something different. If you do, then I may need to get specific information on when that comes into effect, the planning permit issue date, the building permit issue date or the occupancy permit issue date. If it's part of the 5 star standard then it doesn't matter since that's from 2004. But the planning permit was issued in 2009 so that could be a thing. SaveH2O It is possible that only the plumbing (house pipe) connection has to be made as per your situation due to the possibility of theft of switching devices etc from a new unoccupied house. That is my query re the certificate and 6 star compliance at the moment. It could also be something that isn't regulation exempt but overlooked nevertheless due to the possible theft factor. Did you ask the VBA as to whether the certificate is issued only for a fully installed and connected tank? They might be non committal on that one! I didn't ask but I could. This would be really difficult to steal as it's behind two locked garage doors. Re: Water Catchment Tank Question 20Feb 10, 2014 10:51 pm Who is the tank's manufacturer? I want to check the fitting instructions and the warranty terms and conditions. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. 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