Browse Forums Kitchen Corner Re: What makes cabinets good quality? What questions to ask? 61Apr 01, 2012 6:04 pm Its been about 7 years now since I last made kitchens and things move on. While to keep to a budget we would make kitchens from HMR - if people wanted them we would do them in solid timber - but only because we had our own log contract mill and kiln and could produce the timber we wanted to work with in lieu of buying imported timbers or using HMR and at a cost that we remained competitive. The reason I sold up was - in the end we couldn't buy the logs anymore - and you can thank the Greens Bob Brown and all the "where have all the trees gone grandpah?" adverts on TV for that - everyone knows that trees are like minerals, a once off non renewable non sustainable resource! So most of the advice about cabinets and hardware (Blum & Hettich) so far are pretty good tips. Same with quality of particle board and formaldehyde etc.. As for laminates - Laminex industries bought our CSR etc years ago so essentially now Laminex and Formica come out of the exact same factory - where once upon a time they were different products - they are still marketed I believe as separate brands, just both owned by the one company now (Laminex industries). I'm not a fan of mdf cnc routed panel doors vacuum wrapped with vinyl myself - yes they can and do sometimes bubble and can and do peel at times. That said when they are intact they do seem to have good water proofing properties at the outset. Once you start setting the hinges etc into them tho, you've breached that water proof barrier. A marine ply ladder frame with solid timber kickboards was always my preferred support if you don't want any moisture problems.. I would make all my own timber doors mortised and tenon-ed. I don't like the manufactured timber doors with finger joints and cured with electrically set glue - I've seen the joints fail over time. Sure when varnished / polished they appear the same but they don't last the way my hand made solid timber doors do. When doing HMR carcases cabinets with solid timber doors - I avoided the edge banding method with hot melt glued edge band in melamine....for carcass and shelves - awful stuff that chips and peels - I'd instead run solid timber edge strip 10 mm thick by the 16mm width of the hmr and edge all my carcasses and shelves in the matching varnished solid timber (jarrah, blackbutt, sheoke, and marri)... That way your timber doors close onto a solid timber faced HMR Melamine carcase. Also - if you don't like the arctic bright white carcase against a softer hue timber - because it is harsh on the eyes when you open a door - then select a offwhite/beige melamine finished HMR board...for your carcases and shelves, it makes a heck of a LOT of difference to the overall finished look... yes colored HMR melamine board is dearer than bulk packs of bright white - but you know what? After a while the bright arctic white mass produced HMR board is just too common - and it often doesn't blend as well as a colored panel with the laminated tops or granit tops and colored doors. Individually they are small things.....but collectively they add up to dearer cabinets at the end of the day. Also I dislike the modern mass produced rolled radius-ed edge post formed tops, for just 1 reason... when people spill liquids on bench tops as they do - (or sink/s overflow as one day they will), that water will follow the radius-ed edge top due to surface tension, back under the front over hanging edge of the counter top and drip / run down inside the cabinet doors onto the HMR particle board shelves and base board of the cabinet and even tho it is HMR, it will still inevitably swell and commence the premature rot & demise of your cabinets... Today if you must use HMR for your cabinets - then expect to replace them on average about every 6 or 7 years...careful people may get 15 years if they are well built and designed. Back to the tops - a cabinet top with a radius-ed top edge but a square bottom edge - will drip / run that water straight down onto your kitchen floor, instead of inside your expensive cabinet. As long as you have a marine (or at least form ply) ladder frame and solid timber kickboard - any such water / flooding can be cleaned up without damaging your cabinets. It's even possible to affix under the front edge of the top - set back but still outside the cabinet door drip line a drip edge! A small plant on of solid timber designed to get any water liquids to drip outside the cabinet door line... a great investment in longevity of the cabinet... Of course if everyone manufactured cabinets to those standards - then customers wouldn't need new ones on average every 6 - 7 years and half the cabbies would be outta bidness! It's like anything with enough forethought - lots of improved design & materials selection could prevent the biggest risk of water damage, to cabinets. As long as you shop wisely you should get what you pay for. Cheers Re: What makes cabinets good quality? What questions to ask? 62Apr 03, 2012 7:43 am heftzwecke . While melamine falls apart these old fashioned kitchens are still good when you are gone. In short I would ask around maybe you find a joiner who does that. When the proper white melamine is used (HMR or Nema) and proper kickboards the cabinets will last a long long time. The main problem with timber is cost. You would tripple the cost of your kitchen if you used it for the cabinets. Cutting Edge Kitchens and Cabinet Making http://cuttingedgekitchens.net.au http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cutting-Edge-Kitchens/290484196676 Mobile : 0419 430 575 PH: 9452 4772 Fax :9452 4772 cuttingedgekitchens@outlook.com Re: What makes cabinets good quality? What questions to ask? 63Aug 17, 2012 10:23 pm Ian Moone Back to the tops - a cabinet top with a radius-ed top edge but a square bottom edge - will drip / run that water straight down onto your kitchen floor, instead of inside your expensive cabinet. As long as you have a marine (or at least form ply) ladder frame and solid timber kickboard - any such water / flooding can be cleaned up without damaging your cabinets. It's even possible to affix under the front edge of the top - set back but still outside the cabinet door drip line a drip edge! A small plant on of solid timber designed to get any water liquids to drip outside the cabinet door line... a great investment in longevity of the cabinet... That's the type of detail you wish the experts, whether kitchen installers or other tradies or builders, would tell you about. I'm fed up of seeing things in display houses that aren't going to be hardwearing or longlasting or practical or convenient to use but they look trendy right now. Re: What makes cabinets good quality? What questions to ask? 64Aug 18, 2012 12:50 am JazzyJess That's the type of detail you wish the experts, whether kitchen installers or other tradies or builders, would tell you about. I'm fed up of seeing things in display houses that aren't going to be hardwearing or longlasting or practical or convenient to use but they look trendy right now. I completely agree. The best way to make a choice is to be educated as to why one choice is better/worse than the other, rather than a stupid sales pitch or emotional appeals (which often coincides). Unfortunately, not many people trying to sell you something know anything about the product, let alone pros and cons of the various design aspects. I never thought about the rounded bottom edges, because I want a brushed stainless steel plate (8mm) in my next kitchen. However, it was pure luck that I happen to like a right angle edge, not knowledge. Although I could probably have come to the same conclusion with a little thinking, it's just that it never, ever crossed my mind to think about that. I'm glad that it is now in the back of my mind if and when I want something else than the steel plate. One more good thing in the rucksack. Thanks, Ian. Re: What makes cabinets good quality? What questions to ask? 65Aug 21, 2012 7:28 am You can have a rounded bottom edge on a bench top without it damaging your expensive cabinets. A small 5mm pencil round on stone will allow the water to drop off 10mm behind the frond edge. With a 25mm bench top overhang it will miss the doors and drop to the floor. On a proper laminate bench top a plastic drip groove is inserted 5mm behind the round allowing the water to drop harmlessly to the floor. Cutting Edge Kitchens and Cabinet Making http://cuttingedgekitchens.net.au http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cutting-Edge-Kitchens/290484196676 Mobile : 0419 430 575 PH: 9452 4772 Fax :9452 4772 cuttingedgekitchens@outlook.com Re: What makes cabinets good quality? What questions to ask? 66Aug 21, 2012 7:30 am Danois [ I never thought about the rounded bottom edges, because I want a brushed stainless steel plate (8mm) in my next kitchen. However, it was pure luck that I happen to like a right angle edge, not knowledge. Although I could probably have come to the same conclusion with a little thinking, it's just that it never, ever crossed my mind to think about that. I'm glad that it is now in the back of my mind if and when I want something else than the steel plate. One more good thing in the rucksack. Thanks, Ian. Dont stress if its built properly you dont need a square bottom edge on the bench top! Cutting Edge Kitchens and Cabinet Making http://cuttingedgekitchens.net.au http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cutting-Edge-Kitchens/290484196676 Mobile : 0419 430 575 PH: 9452 4772 Fax :9452 4772 cuttingedgekitchens@outlook.com Re: What makes cabinets good quality? What questions to ask? 67Aug 21, 2012 8:42 pm CuttingEdgeKitchens Danois [ I never thought about the rounded bottom edges, because I want a brushed stainless steel plate (8mm) in my next kitchen. However, it was pure luck that I happen to like a right angle edge, not knowledge. Although I could probably have come to the same conclusion with a little thinking, it's just that it never, ever crossed my mind to think about that. I'm glad that it is now in the back of my mind if and when I want something else than the steel plate. One more good thing in the rucksack. Thanks, Ian. Dont stress if its built properly you dont need a square bottom edge on the bench top! So you say, but I don't want a lot of overhang as you say. I want the edge to be flush(or nearly flush) with the drawer fronts. In any case, it's not a problem for me, since I was lucky that my choice in top comes with a straight edge as standard, unless I pay extra. No need to pay extra as it would be counter productive. Edit: This is the look: Re: What makes cabinets good quality? What questions to ask? 68Aug 22, 2012 6:27 pm With that look water will run into your cabinets and onto the faces of your doors. I know its a look your after and I like it but I totaly advise against it if you want to keep your kitchen clean and without water problems! You need a minimium of 15-20mm overhang to avoid water issues. Cutting Edge Kitchens and Cabinet Making http://cuttingedgekitchens.net.au http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cutting-Edge-Kitchens/290484196676 Mobile : 0419 430 575 PH: 9452 4772 Fax :9452 4772 cuttingedgekitchens@outlook.com Re: What makes cabinets good quality? What questions to ask? 69Aug 22, 2012 9:43 pm CuttingEdgeKitchens With that look water will run into your cabinets and onto the faces of your doors. I know its a look your after and I like it but I totaly advise against it if you want to keep your kitchen clean and without water problems! You need a minimium of 15-20mm overhang to avoid water issues. Actually, I want that look, and an overhang of 3-5 millimeter is enough. The drawers won't look exactly like that, though, they will have a little slant outward on the top. I don't have pictures of that, since I lifted that photo from a kitchen manufacturer's site. I am even considering having dark concrete fronts, but I'll probably revert to white washed oak before I finally choose. If I read you correctly, you seem to want huge overhangs as well as band-aids of plastic strips, resulting in even more height between top of drawers and bottom of the bench top. Re: What makes cabinets good quality? What questions to ask? 70Aug 23, 2012 11:28 pm Danois. CEK is simple telling you how it works. When you build cabinets for a living you have a fair idea what works and what doesn't I build my kitchens exactly as he described. Some clients desire a certain look and if that is what they want then that is what they get. That doesn't mean it is necessarily the best way to build them. Some clients are happy to take form over function, and there is nothing wrong with that. It's just with a little forethought you can usually have both. Accessible Carpentry & Cabinets accessiblecarpentry@gmail.com accessiblecarpentry.com.au https://www.facebook.com/pages/Accessible-Carpentry-Cabinets/583314911709039 Re: What makes cabinets good quality? What questions to ask? 71Aug 23, 2012 11:34 pm Chippy, I'm not saying no overhang. I'm saying close to no overhang. You don't need 25mm of overhang as well as plastic strips to not have things dripping into the cabinet. It's a matter of design. Hell, I could have a 1 mm strip welded on, if I wanted, and that would stop water dripping onto the top if it was a mere 3 mm out from the front of the cupboards. It doesn't take a genius to work that out. Edit: In fact, what I will do is take a grinder and makea groove on the inside wide enough so the water can't catch the other side of it by surface tension. The groove well start a couple of millimetres from the edge, and be a 10mm wide, 3-4mm deep. I'm a bit miffed about you suggesting I take form over function, while saying that he's doing it right. I mean, he's suggesting that a rounded lower edge is a-okay, and to make up for that with huge overhangs and plastic. Seriously, I don't go buy things on looks alone, and I never trust a "tradesperson" to automatically have the best solution. They usually have the easiest and/or cheapest (to them) solution. Re: What makes cabinets good quality? What questions to ask? 72Aug 23, 2012 11:45 pm The picture you posted would have water issues. Cohesion and capillary action would see to that even if the top overhung 3mm. As I said, with a little forethought can get you the look you want while lessening the issues, your welded strip idea proves that. The drip groove in laminate tops is not a plastic strip but a groove in the underside of the bench. It can't be seen. Accessible Carpentry & Cabinets accessiblecarpentry@gmail.com accessiblecarpentry.com.au https://www.facebook.com/pages/Accessible-Carpentry-Cabinets/583314911709039 Re: What makes cabinets good quality? What questions to ask? 73Aug 24, 2012 12:03 am chippy The picture you posted would have water issues. Yes, but I have already posted several times that I'd have a little overhang. That is not my kitchen, and I can't work with CAD programmes, so that was the closest I could get to show how I wanted it. Quote: Cohesion and capillary action would see to that even if the top overhung 3mm. No it won't. You need two very close surfaces to have capillary action and the top o the drawers aren't close enough to the bottom of the bench top to do that. As for cohesion, I already told you how the front is not rounded (so the water wont accelarate inwards, and that a solution to make cohesion even less of a problem would be to cut a groove on the inside (which will work on the same principle as a plastic drip strip, only much more elegant). Quote: As I said, with a little forethought can get you the look you want while lessening the issues, your welded strip idea proves that. Yup, and so does the groove. I think about these things, but of course forget some things also. Quote: The drip groove in laminate tops is not a plastic strip but a groove in the underside of the bench. It can't be seen. I see, I misread "groove" for "strip" in his post. Nonetheless, my groove or even that welded lip of sorts, will do the same. Generally, if you have rounded edges, you will certainly need a bigger groove than on something with square edges, because on a rounded edge, the water will not only accelerate downwards, but inwards as well. Speaking of water: the cabinets themselves will all be wallhung, so no kickboard and no legs. Easy clean up, and I can have a drain under the cupboards without having to walk/stand on one. Re: What makes cabinets good quality? What questions to ask? 74Aug 24, 2012 12:15 am Danois Chippy, I'm not saying no overhang. I'm saying close to no overhang. You don't need 25mm of overhang as well as plastic strips to not have things dripping into the cabinet. It's a matter of design. Hell, I could have a 1 mm strip welded on, if I wanted, and that would stop water dripping onto the top if it was a mere 3 mm out from the front of the cupboards. It doesn't take a genius to work that out. Edit: In fact, what I will do is take a grinder and makea groove on the inside wide enough so the water can't catch the other side of it by surface tension. The groove well start a couple of millimetres from the edge, and be a 10mm wide, 3-4mm deep. I'm a bit miffed about you suggesting I take form over function, while saying that he's doing it right. I mean, he's suggesting that a rounded lower edge is a-okay, and to make up for that with huge overhangs and plastic. Seriously, I don't go buy things on looks alone, and I never trust a "tradesperson" to automatically have the best solution. They usually have the easiest and/or cheapest (to them) solution. Actually it is usually the client that wants things done as cheaply as possible. As a tradesman I take a lot of pride in my work and love it when a client wants something different to the typical run of the mill job. I simply discuss the pro's and con's of various options and the client chooses what they want. I then give them a quote based on that. Easiness and price have no bearing at all on what I offer. The kitchen you have shown is not a standard kitchen and will cost over and above what a standard kitchen would cost (and what most people are prepared to pay). My own kitchen has cupboards that are flush with our tops . I have it because I like that look. We've had no real issues with water in our cupboards but we are fairly careful not to slop things around and if we do have a spill it's cleaned up quickly. Having said that I know that if one of the kids knocks over a glass then we will be emptying our drawers and cupboards to clean them out as the liquid will get back inside the cupboards. I have chosen form over function. I was aware of this possible issue but built my kitchen like it because that was the look we wanted. I guess the point of my post was to say that sometimes people in the trade KNOW what they are talking about. Accessible Carpentry & Cabinets accessiblecarpentry@gmail.com accessiblecarpentry.com.au https://www.facebook.com/pages/Accessible-Carpentry-Cabinets/583314911709039 Re: What makes cabinets good quality? What questions to ask? 75Aug 24, 2012 12:28 am Danois I completely agree. The best way to make a choice is to be educated as to why one choice is better/worse than the other, rather than a stupid sales pitch or emotional appeals (which often coincides). Unfortunately, not many people trying to sell you something know anything about the product, let alone pros and cons of the various design aspects. I think CEK and myself (people who know about our products) were merely trying to educate about the pro's and con's of various design aspects. That is what you wanted isn't it. Accessible Carpentry & Cabinets accessiblecarpentry@gmail.com accessiblecarpentry.com.au https://www.facebook.com/pages/Accessible-Carpentry-Cabinets/583314911709039 Re: What makes cabinets good quality? What questions to ask? 76Aug 25, 2012 5:05 pm Danois [Actually, I want that look, and an overhang of 3-5 millimeter is enough. If I read you correctly, you seem to want huge overhangs as well as band-aids of plastic strips, resulting in even more height between top of drawers and bottom of the bench top. Wow where are you coming from and whats with "band-aid plastic strips". Sounds like you have no idea! If you purchase a kitchen with a laminate top it should have a drip grove rebated into the underside of the top. Its a piece of plastic 2mm square and doesnt stick out at all. It was designed to stop the water going any further and to drop harmlessly onto the floor. It doesnt add anymore height to your kitchen or bottom of the bench top. I am not sure where you got that idea from. 15-20mm is not a huge over hang!!!! Its INDUSTRY STANDARD!!!! 3-5mm is not enough. If you were my customer I would suggest that it wasnt enought to stop the water getting into the cabinets and drawer fronts. If you still wanted it I would be happy to build it for you but wouldnt warrenty the kitchen against water damage! I have over 20 years in the industry and build a quality product. Why would I give you poor advice. The info I am giving is accurate and how most in the industry do it. Go for your 3-5mm overhangs they look good but dont function well!!! Cutting Edge Kitchens and Cabinet Making http://cuttingedgekitchens.net.au http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cutting-Edge-Kitchens/290484196676 Mobile : 0419 430 575 PH: 9452 4772 Fax :9452 4772 cuttingedgekitchens@outlook.com Re: What makes cabinets good quality? What questions to ask? 77Oct 25, 2012 7:05 pm The answer to your question really needs to start with the price and then secondly the lifespan of the kitchen your looking for. I've read a lot of discussion and responses about the type of board or substrate that you should be looking for. Whilst this is an important aspect (most use MRMDF board) the real finish quality will be determined by the type finish. There are numerous options with regards to the finish such as two pac paint, low pressure laminate (pre decorated board), high pressure laminate. There are several recent news articles that relate to the benefits of all materials which can be found at www.surfacesquared.com.au/latest-news Most commercial fit-outs looking for extended lifespan generally apply a high pressure laminate as the durability is far better that two pac paint or low pressure decorative board. This high pressure laminate is the same material that your mum and dad would have had on their kitchen bench 30 years ago. Today it's used for doors, bench tops and numerous other applications. The laminate colour choice is vast with over 1200 decors available in Australia. Take a look at http://www.surfacesquared.com.au for more information. Good luck Re: What makes cabinets good quality? What questions to ask? 78Oct 25, 2012 8:47 pm SurfaceSquared The answer to your question really needs to start with the price and then secondly the lifespan of the kitchen your looking for. I've read a lot of discussion and responses about the type of board or substrate that you should be looking for. Whilst this is an important aspect (most use MRMDF board) the real finish quality will be determined by the type finish. There are numerous options with regards to the finish such as two pac paint, low pressure laminate (pre decorated board), high pressure laminate. There are several recent news articles that relate to the benefits of all materials which can be found at www.surfacesquared.com.au/latest-news Most commercial fit-outs looking for extended lifespan generally apply a high pressure laminate as the durability is far better that two pac paint or low pressure decorative board. This high pressure laminate is the same material that your mum and dad would have had on their kitchen bench 30 years ago. Today it's used for doors, bench tops and numerous other applications. The laminate colour choice is vast with over 1200 decors available in Australia. Take a look at http://www.surfacesquared.com.au for more information. Good luck Very interesting Re: What makes cabinets good quality? What questions to ask? 79Oct 29, 2012 4:50 pm SurfaceSquared Most commercial fit-outs looking for extended lifespan generally apply a high pressure laminate as the durability is far better that two pac paint or low pressure decorative board. This high pressure laminate is the same material that your mum and dad would have had on their kitchen bench 30 years ago. Today it's used for doors, bench tops and numerous other applications. The laminate colour choice is vast with over 1200 decors available in Australia. Take a look at http://www.surfacesquared.com.au for more information. Good luck I wouldnt rate high pressure laminate doors as durabile! Square edge laminate chips very easily which makes the doors look terriable. Have a look at your local medical centre, the doors that are used all the time have chips on the edges. Its great as a bench top becuase it usually has a post formed round on the top and bottom edge which stops it from chipping. I would go as far as saying I would never never sugest fully laminated kitchen doors! They look like a medical centre and they have no scope for design like a two pac or vinyl wrapped door. Laminate cannot be repaired where two pac can. Cutting Edge Kitchens and Cabinet Making http://cuttingedgekitchens.net.au http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cutting-Edge-Kitchens/290484196676 Mobile : 0419 430 575 PH: 9452 4772 Fax :9452 4772 cuttingedgekitchens@outlook.com Re: What makes cabinets good quality? What questions to ask? 80Feb 28, 2013 11:36 am for me solid wood on moving parts. I hate particle board on moving parts... it wears out faster. I don't mind it for paneling. Budget permitting of course Ardo That is so funny! I wonder how many people know who Larry Haun is these days. I have a couple of young guys we call Mo 1 & Mo 2 who run a crew of 6 boys and… 9 15515 I work with owner, he/she is my man on the ground and I instruct them when to visit the site and take photos and I have other tools in the bag. 4 15265 You can really use anything you want the main consideration would be how it looks once painted/finished - or the look you want. Cabinetmakers use MDF because its cheap… 2 9959 |